What do you understand by ...

[MikeBigg]

I'm hoping this won't infringe the forum rules, but I wanted to ask the question here in the "like-minded" section rather than the unorthodox theology section.

Please, can we not discuss this, just post your answers. I think any discussion will cause the thread to be moved to the UT section, where their views maybe skewed from us "normal" charismatics' views.

Christian Universalism is categorised from unorthodox to heretical.

As you read this post, what do you understand by the term Christian Universalism? What do you think is wrong with the concept?


Thank you,

Mike

 

[missmarple]

universalism, the doctrine that all people will be saved and in heaven for eternity, is simply a big fat lie. the bible is clear and there can be no doubt whatsoever, that those who reject Jesus Christ after having heard the gospel (I am not certain about those who have not heard) will go to hell or lake of fire, forever and ever, and they will suffer there. they wont be annhilated or cease to exist, they will exist forever in hell. so to call universalism, christian, is impossible. Christian faith adheres to scripture.

 

[The Unforgettable Fire]

I'm hoping this won't infringe the forum rules, but I wanted to ask the question here in the "like-minded" section rather than the unorthodox theology section.

Please, can we not discuss this, just post your answers. I think any discussion will cause the thread to be moved to the UT section, where their views maybe skewed from us "normal" charismatics' views.

Christian Universalism is categorised from unorthodox to heretical.

As you read this post, what do you understand by the term Christian Universalism? What do you think is wrong with the concept?

Thank you,

Mike

I heard a C.S. Lewis quote recently that said the door to hell is locked from the inside.

Have you ever met someone that absolutely refused to forgive? And have you ever seen this type of person create a hell for themselves for not doing so?

Speaking from both positive and negative experience, I believe crossing over from the temporal into the eternal is a bit like being cast into the ocean. If someone is hanging onto unforgiveness or anything else that is not part of God's perfect nature, it is like having one's hand clasped around a giant weight when they are thrown overboard. It's not that they won't float (God's mercy if you will), its that their refusal in this life turns to a reality in the next. It's not that God is unwilling to save the sinner, it is that the sinner is unwilling to be reconciled to God, or to be more specific, the nature of God.

To go further, reconciling ourselves to the nature of God can't be done by being good because no one is that good. We need outside intervention. God in Christ comes into the heart of the believer and supernaturally reconciles the heart of the believer. The believer, while still flawed with human nature and impulses, is changed positionally and compulsively to manifest the nature of God in their lives both here and in eternity.

If I go by my own standards and efforts, there is only so much I can forgive, there is only so much I can love. But if I look to Christ, if I trust in Christ, His love compels me to love, His love compels me to forgive. His love heals my heart from the hurts of this life and transforms me as I walk through this life to be more perfectly loving like Him. Even though I may get beset by hurt, failure and sin, If I keep my eyes on Him, His love will always rescue me and redeem me from the hurts of this world and from my own weaknesses.

When we cross into eternity, if we are focused on Christ, His love, instead of a weight of self righteousness (faith in our rightness) around our ankle dragging us to the abyss, will instead, rapture us into the fullness of what He created us to be as objects of His love, grace and mercy.

This is why there is no hope except in Christ. God's love defined in Christ can and will save anyone, but not everyone will want to be saved. There will ultimately be those who would rather suffer a thousand deaths than forgive the one who trespassed against them. They would rather curse God for being all gracious, loving and merciful than bowing their hearts to Him.

 

[MikeBigg]

Thank you, Miss Marple and Mr Fire.

 

[Tobias]

I think universalism is based more upon what we'd like to imagine about God, rather than on the revealed nature of God. A lot of times people try to imagine God in the image the think they'd like best, and create theologies accordingly. Unfortunately, this is the modern day equivalent of creating an idol in the image of something you find attractive and worshiping it instead of God. When you create your own god you have the advantage of picking and choosing the materials you like best, but the disadvantage of it not being anything more than what you made yourself.

 

[x141]

As you read this post, what do you understand by the term Christian Universalism? What do you think is wrong with the concept?

As far as the term "Christian Universalism" Adam names everything ...

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

In the comings and goings, is many everybody or just some ...

 

[MikeBigg]

Thank you Tobias and x141

 

[missmarple]

you cant base a doctrine on one verse. reading Rom 5:19 you must take into account all other scriptures on salvation. do the rest of them say that all the world will be saved? NO. clearly NO. so this verse does not mean all will be saved.
When Jesus died on the cross, He died for all mankind. Salvation has been provided for everyone. Its been done, finished. But mankind has to respond. Each person has to choose for themselves whether to believe in Jesus and follow Him, or not to. most choose not to, and most will go to hell forever even though salvation is already provided for them.

 

[Yitzchak]

I'm hoping this won't infringe the forum rules, but I wanted to ask the question here in the "like-minded" section rather than the unorthodox theology section.

Please, can we not discuss this, just post your answers. I think any discussion will cause the thread to be moved to the UT section, where their views maybe skewed from us "normal" charismatics' views.

Christian Universalism is categorised from unorthodox to heretical.

As you read this post, what do you understand by the term Christian Universalism? What do you think is wrong with the concept?


Thank you,

Mike

Universalism means that everyone who has ever lived in the history of the earth goes to Heaven. Which means everyone from Adam to Hitler to Mother Theresa.

On the side in favor of Universalism , there is more than enough grace to save anyone and since we are all sinners then we cannot act all shocked and offended that God would forgive someone else who seems evil such as Hitler.

On the side against it , it seems to contradict scripture which sets forth two categories. Those who are saved versus those who are not saved.

Of course , there are questions/problems that arise with the traditional viewpoint which is why we get these Calvinism versus Arminianism debates so often. It is also why we get these works versus no works debates.

The problem is that once we set forth that there are two categories , then how is it determined which person goes in the saved versus which goes in the unsaved category ? Since God's grace is great enough to save even the worst sinner , then it cannot be based upon a shortage of grace. It is possible for anyone to be saved no matter how sinful.

I think this is where the idea of Universalism comes from. It is easier to conclude that everyone is saved then to sort through why one person is saved and another is not. It seems unfair , at least in part , for one sinner to be saved and another to not be saved. I think this is why many reject Calvinism and instead favor some version of things where people have made their own choice for either heaven or hell.

Anyway , there is actually quite a bit written about this subject over the history of the church. Especially if one widens the subject to the doctrine of salvation , which is called Soteriology.

I personally favor the traditional viewpoint which condemns Universalism as heresy. I do this not simply based upon the fact that it is the traditional viewpoint. But I also think it is the correct and biblical position. I think one reason why Universalism is condemned by the church is because it is a trap that can easily be fallen into. It is a more subtle error because it appeals to our human reasoning of what makes sense. For this reason it is specifically targeted as a dangerous heresy because people are prone to fall into this error. There are many other errors in doctrine possible , but some are obvious and not as appealing as others. I also think it is targeted because it pertains to the doctrine of salvation. The creeds and statements of beliefs of the historic church often targeted doctrines which pertain to who Christ is and the nature of the Godhead and also issues of salvation li8ke Universalism.

I like the quote I read this last week on a church website. It is from John Wesley. It said in essentials , unity; in non essentials , liberty; in all things charity. I think Universalism is an essential. Some issues are not.

 

[x141]

It all comes down to us individually reasoning one on one with God.

In one verse Jesus says, there is only one Father, in another he said there were two fathers.

Which is correct, was Jesus unstable, or was he speaking in a lower form when he made the Father who was one into two.

I'm not speaking in absolutes, God is the only absolute, whom all things flow from, there being life in no other unless it was in the first place granted by him.

We become the judge of this until we see that we can not even judge ourselves which is an embracing of our own cross which stems back to the obedience involving the commandment not to eat.



When they called him good, Jesus replied there was none good but God, but in another place he made himself equal with God, making himself good. What was the point of saying things, when they appear to be contradictions.

Good and evil are contradictions to each other but yet grow on the same tree, why?

For Adam the tree in the midst of the garden was the tree of life, to the woman the tree of knowledge, why the different perception of the truth of what was in the midst of the garden.

God created all things by Jesus Christ who was the Word of God. Was he a bunch of words or just one word?

In the end, truth is what it is to you, and this only by the revelation given to you by God, even as the life that is in you was given by him. Outside of him there is no life, or the knowledge of this life.

 

[MikeBigg]

Thank you, Yitzchak.