What do you see masturbating as? Sin? Sorry about all the topics you must have!

[holo]

well, i can find were the bible talks about men of God doing all these things(except maby scratching your ear), but touching yourself. no.

But you conclude that scratching your ear is OK and masturbation is not. Why?

 

[Floatingaxe]

God granted us our reason and thought.

You just choose to ignore that gift.

Absolutely not. The mind that is enlightened by God and set free of wrong thinking is an excellent and valuable instrument.

 

[Dannager]

Absolutely not. The mind that is enlightened by God and set free of wrong thinking is an excellent and valuable instrument.

That was a quick walk.

Belief in an inerrant Bible is not required for an enlightened mind. You have no more claim to one than anyone else here.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I quite agree. Yet it seems to me that the church has swung the pendulum to the exact opposite extreme so that sexuality is suffocated. To be honest, I pray on my knees that my future wife (whoever she may be) masturbates. I don’t want her to be afraid of sexuality like so many people in the church seem to be, with their “ew, sex, icky-poo” attitudes. They are either ignorant of the power and God-ordained goodness of our sexuality or they are completely fake in their approach to sexuality.

I think it's quite possible to not touch and yet not be afraid of sexuality.
About the prayer for your future wife, well God's will be done, whatever it is. I obviously can't speak for God, so I don't know what His answer would be..I'm sure He understands your perspective though, because He knows us all. (In all honesty, when I was typing this paragraph, I was tempted to talk about how masturbation is wrong so you shouldn't pray for someone to do it...but this is just my view, and prayer is something between you and God, and if He thinks it's wrong, I think He would tell you Himself. and if He doesn't, you would know. lol so ..His will be done. Be open to whatever it may be.)

 

[Dannager]

I think it's quite possible to not touch and yet not be afraid of sexuality.

Yes, it probably is. That doesn't mean that it's better not to, though.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Yeah, I put reason above the Bible. Reason is more reliable.

God made our minds and gave us reason, but since we're all flawed human beings our reason is flawed too. For example, I used to be an agnostic, and several years ago I wrote an essay for philosophy class trying to prove that God doesn't exist. I used my reason for that. My argument was actually quite logical. But just because something makes sense to us (is "logical") doesn't make it true. Our reason is affected by schooling, society, culture, etc...those things are far from perfect.

I believe that because of the fall, we became separated from God, and our minds 'fell' along with our souls. The only way our reason could be reliable is if it's united with God, and thus, comes from Him. God redeemes the whole person, mind included, but I don't think we would be fully renewed until the Resurrection when we shall be given new bodies. But until then, if we trust in God and are 'in Christ', He would guide us in the right direction. For this, we should put the Holy Spirit first and our minds second, because as the Bible says only the spiritual man can understand spiritual truths.

So I agree with you that reason is a good thing, but only if we let God transform it.

As to the Bible, I believe that it's fully reliable and correct, and inspired by God...but even if you don't believe that, surely you would agree that it was written by better Christians than us who understood God better (like the Apostles), and hence had more wisdom than us. This makes it more reliable than our minds. If we don't trust the Bible, then how can we believe that Jesus is God, or that He died for our sins and rose again? Our reason does not tell us that, in fact we can't understand how a Man can triumph over death. We can only believe it, and as our minds become renewed by faith, we are able to understand the gospel a little better.

1 Corinthians shows that God's wisdom is different from human wisdom, but if we're saved we are able to understand it better: here's the whole thing, in context:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

So...that's my view on this. God asks that we believe, even if something doesn't make much sense to us right now. It will, sooner or later, as we grow in Christ. And the Bible tells us what to believe.

So relating this to our topic; we should be Spirit-lead to understand God's view on masturbation, and not just rely on our own logic. Since I'm not God, I cant' say for sure which side is 'correct'..it may well be that God tells different things to different people, since He knows what each of us needs. Masturbation may be a sin in some cases, but not in others. However, I stand by my belief that it's wrong, because I feel convicted of this.

God bless


monica

 

[MoNiCa4316]

....But what I am trying to say..is how do people KNOW what God is saying to them? how do they know for sure that a feeling is from God and lets say not from the devil? Just how do people know?

Sorry this question wasn't directed to me, but this is something I've been thinking about too... I've struggled with this for some time, and I asked God that He would help me distinguish His voice from all the other ones. Now, well obviously I'm not perfect at this or anything, but sometimes I just 'know' that it's Him..I can't explain it; it's just a certainty and a sense of peace.

But actually the Bible does tell us a good way to check if something is from God, and that's by its 'fruits'. God would never ever tell us something that makes us feel hatred, or worry, or despair, and His advice would never lead to hatred of other people. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. "Against such things there is no law"; they are always good. (Galations 5:22-23 ). Test every thought and spirit, by its fruit, and ask God to help you hear His voice....that's what I did, and it seemed to work, although I still have a lot to go. God speaks through our feelings (I don't mean emotions), the Bible, other people, circumstances, etc etc....there are many ways that He communicates to us, I don't want to put God in a box.

God bless!


monica

 

[Dannager]

God made our minds and gave us reason, but since we're all flawed human beings our reason is flawed too.

I disagree with that. I believe our reason can be flawed, but that depends on the individual. There are tenets and method to reason, and if followed it provides eminently useful results.

For example, I used to be an agnostic, and several years ago I wrote an essay for philosophy class trying to prove that God doesn't exist. I used my reason for that. My argument was actually quite logical. But just because something makes sense to us (is "logical") doesn't make it true.

There is a world of difference between what is logical and what makes "sense". The idea of sense, or common sense, is rooted in subjectivity and casual observation. Common sense is a tool for making quick, passing judgments about simple matters. Sense breaks down when applied to something that really does take a long time to properly understand. It does not apply to everything. Logic is the study of entailment, association, correlation and causation. It is a very in-depth field that takes some time to understand. Furthermore, it operates on premises which must first be established. The supernatural cannot be established, which means that logic cannot be used to evaluate the supernatural.

Our reason is affected by schooling, society, culture, etc...those things are far from perfect.

Individual reason is, yes, but actual reason (logical study) is a defined field.

I believe that because of the fall, we became separated from God, and our minds 'fell' along with our souls.

I do not believe that this is so.

The only way our reason could be reliable is if it's united with God, and thus, comes from Him.

Reason does come from God - it is a gift to mankind, and allows us to observe the world around us and to study theology, among other things. Reason is used to study the Bible. You cannot say that our reason is flawed but our interpretation of the Bible is not.

God redeemes the whole person, mind included, but I don't think we would be fully renewed until the Resurrection when we shall be given new bodies. But until then, if we trust in God and are 'in Christ', He would guide us in the right direction. For this, we should put the Holy Spirit first and our minds second, because as the Bible says only the spiritual man can understand spiritual truths.

The rules of reason do not change upon conversion to Christianity. Spiritual truths aside, being Christian does not mean that you reach radically different conclusions about the world around you. God did not create us to be deceived by our own eyes. If that were true, you would not be able to trust what you read in the Bible.

So I agree with you that reason is a good thing, but only if we let God transform it.

I do not believe, nor see any cause to believe, that reason is transformed by God in any way. God transforms our souls upon accepting him, not our reason.

As to the Bible, I believe that it's fully reliable and correct, and inspired by God...but even if you don't believe that, surely you would agree that it was written by better Christians than us who understood God better (like the Apostles), and hence had more wisdom than us.

No, I do not believe that is necessarily true. I believe that there are people out there today who understand the nature of the divine as well as (or even better than!) those who lived in biblical times, and I know that there are those who understand the world we live in better.

This makes it more reliable than our minds.

No, it doesn't. Our minds must be the most reliable thing we have. You use your mind to read the Bible. If your mind's reliability is lower than that of the Bible, then you cannot trust what you read in the Bible any more than the reliability of your mind will allow.

If we don't trust the Bible, then how can we believe that Jesus is God, or that He died for our sins and rose again?

I don't believe either of those things because I trust the Bible. In fact, neither should you. And neither should anyone. You should trust the Bible because you believe those things. Faith comes first.

Our reason does not tell us that, in fact we can't understand how a Man can triumph over death. We can only believe it, and as our minds become renewed by faith, we are able to understand the gospel a little better.

Yes, that much is true. Faith does help us understand scripture. In my case (and in most Christians' cases) faith has led us to understand that the messages of scripture stand apart from their factual accuracy, and that the inerrancy of the Bible isn't important in light of the spiritual truths within.

1 Corinthians shows that God's wisdom is different from human wisdom, but if we're saved we are able to understand it better: here's the whole thing, in context:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

I think this was a message intended to the people of the time, who had the perception that their leaders were wise and intelligent. Jesus was a rebel, you know. The idea that you can always apply scripture to modern times is not a very supportable one.

So...that's my view on this. God asks that we believe, even if something doesn't make much sense to us right now. It will, sooner or later, as we grow in Christ. And the Bible tells us what to believe.

Yes, the Bible asks that we believe. But my faith tells me to always question and be on the lookout for incorrect theology. I am never content in my knowledge of the divine, and I do not believe that anyone else should be. We should always strive for a more perfect understanding, even if that means questioning or abandoning closely-held beliefs.

So relating this to our topic; we should be Spirit-lead to understand God's view on masturbation, and not just rely on our own logic. Since I'm not God, I cant' say for sure which side is 'correct'..it may well be that God tells different things to different people, since He knows what each of us needs. Masturbation may be a sin in some cases, but not in others. However, I stand by my belief that it's wrong, because I feel convicted of this.

How are you able to tell whether your conviction comes from God, the media, your society, your church, your peers, your personal guilt, your upbringing or any other factors? Have you spent some time really thinking it over in your mind, or did you start with the conclusion that it must be a sinful conviction and go from there?

 

[Dannager]

Sorry this question wasn't directed to me, but this is something I've been thinking about too... I've struggled with this for some time, and I asked God that He would help me distinguish His voice from all the other ones. Now, well obviously I'm not perfect at this or anything, but sometimes I just 'know' that it's Him..I can't explain it; it's just a certainty and a sense of peace.

But actually the Bible does tell us a good way to check if something is from God, and that's by its 'fruits'. God would never ever tell us something that makes us feel hatred, or worry, or despair, and His advice would never lead to hatred of other people. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. "Against such things there is no law"; they are always good. (Galations 5:22-23 ). Test every thought and spirit, by its fruit, and ask God to help you hear His voice....that's what I did, and it seemed to work, although I still have a lot to go. God speaks through our feelings (I don't mean emotions), the Bible, other people, circumstances, etc etc....there are many ways that He communicates to us, I don't want to put God in a box.

God bless!


monica

This is incredibly sound advice and thinking. Well put.

 

[sentipente]

What I find intriguing is that most of the things people think we need faith for they have never shown that we need them.

 

[bliz]

Floatingaxe -

Reading over today's posts I see that you do know how to quote and cite from the Bible.

Now then... about those verses that clearly show that that masturbation is a sin.... can we see them sometime soon?

 

[Dannager]

Floatingaxe -

Reading over today's posts I see that you do know how to quote and cite from the Bible.

Now then... about those verses that clearly show that that masturbation is a sin.... can we see them sometime soon?

It's been 44 pages. I'm not sure asking is going to turn anything up.

 

[Jedi]

I will always have an appropriate response. It is you who browbeats. I don't succumb to that.

Right. Calling people “selfish,” “dumb,” and suggesting they’re on the same level as prostitutes is appropriate. Yeah, I can see how that contributes to the discussion. Good job.

Now then... about those verses that clearly show that that masturbation is a sin.... can we see them sometime soon?

I’ve asked over and over for her to show how masturbation inherently falls into the category of “lust,” “of the flesh,” or “lack of self-control.” She hasn’t responded to any of the many times I’ve asked her this. Clearly she has no answer but hey, she’ll continue to throw Bible verses at you, which mean absolutely nothing until she draws that connection. It’s just something Floatingaxe just doesn’t seem to understand. Apparently, she’d rather make herself feel better by speaking down to others.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Sorry this question wasn't directed to me, but this is something I've been thinking about too... I've struggled with this for some time, and I asked God that He would help me distinguish His voice from all the other ones. Now, well obviously I'm not perfect at this or anything, but sometimes I just 'know' that it's Him..I can't explain it; it's just a certainty and a sense of peace.

But actually the Bible does tell us a good way to check if something is from God, and that's by its 'fruits'. God would never ever tell us something that makes us feel hatred, or worry, or despair, and His advice would never lead to hatred of other people. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. "Against such things there is no law"; they are always good. (Galations 5:22-23 ). Test every thought and spirit, by its fruit, and ask God to help you hear His voice....that's what I did, and it seemed to work, although I still have a lot to go. God speaks through our feelings (I don't mean emotions), the Bible, other people, circumstances, etc etc....there are many ways that He communicates to us, I don't want to put God in a box.

God bless!


monica

God bless, Monica!

 

[Floatingaxe]

Right. Calling people “selfish,” “dumb,” and suggesting they’re on the same level as prostitutes is appropriate. Yeah, I can see how that contributes to the discussion. Good job.



I’ve asked over and over for her to show how masturbation inherently falls into the category of “lust,” “of the flesh,” or “lack of self-control.” She hasn’t responded to any of the many times I’ve asked her this. Clearly she has no answer but hey, she’ll continue to throw Bible verses at you, which mean absolutely nothing until she draws that connection. It’s just something Floatingaxe just doesn’t seem to understand. Apparently, she’d rather make herself feel better by speaking down to others.

Don't talk about me in here. It's rude.

The verses you have been shown ad nauseum all point to the fact that we must maintain purity of thought and behaviour. Masturbation is a dead giveaway that your thoughts are not under the control of the Holy Spirit and your hands need something worthwhile to do for God.

It is God's will that we lift up holy hands to Him, praising Him with uplifted hands, blessing and bringing healing to others by the laying on of hands and doing good, hard work with our hands, and giving to the needy...all found in scripture.

Doing all those things that God requires with our hands, there is no instruction in scripture to include manipulating our genitals in His name.

 

[daniel777]

wow, this is alot since i left.

Right. Calling people “selfish,” “dumb,” and suggesting they’re on the same level as prostitutes is appropriate. Yeah, I can see how that contributes to the discussion. Good job.

Absolutely; the bible would never call anyone a fool; and it would certainly never condemn anyone. . . wait; yegh it would.....? technicly, her explanations are logical connections to the way you all are acting...

I’ve asked over and over for her to show how masturbation inherently falls into the category of “lust,” “of the flesh,” or “lack of self-control.” She hasn’t responded to any of the many times I’ve asked her this. Clearly she has no answer but hey, she’ll continue to throw Bible verses at you, which mean absolutely nothing until she draws that connection. It’s just something Floatingaxe just doesn’t seem to understand. Apparently, she’d rather make herself feel better by speaking down to others.

well; just speculating. and we have answered you with this before, you simply don't respond. you could compare the aspects of masturbation with that of other sin. then compare how it glorifies God.? namely, compare it to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness.

Dannager you are really one to be talking about someone backed into a corner. maby you should read back a few pages. you believe your faith is true. you validate your faith through reason. you do not believe all scripture is inspired by God. your reason is based on constantly changing social trends, and yourself. therefore you admit that your faith is of your own making, and accept only what you feel comfortable with.

logic is no good without knowledge. and believeing any knowledge requires some aspect of faith. your reason should be placed in something absolute else you're just comforting yourself. your faith will always be changing. you base your faith on your logic. you should base logic on your faith.

 

[Jedi]

Don't talk about me in here. It's rude.

And you would know about rude, wouldn’t you? Everyone here can see that you’ve cornered that market.

The verses you have been shown ad nauseum all point to the fact that we must maintain purity of thought and behaviour.

And I have told you ad nausea that the verses you have provided are inadequate for your prosecution of masturbation, since you baselessly assume that masturbation inherently falls into the categories of “lust,” “of the flesh,” and “lack of self-control.” Until you provide the basis for such categorization, you can keep posting those verses and it won’t do you a lick of good. Curious why you have consistently failed to answer this objection when your classification of masturbation in these categories is called into question.

Masturbation is a dead giveaway that your thoughts are not under the control of the Holy Spirit and your hands need something worthwhile to do for God.

More personal attacks from arrogant piety. Truly you excel at such condemnations but as I’ve told you before, they contribute nothing to the discussion and should be left out. Control yourself.

It is God's will that we lift up holy hands to Him, praising Him with uplifted hands, blessing and bringing healing to others by the laying on of hands and doing good, hard work with our hands, and giving to the needy...all found in scripture.

Great. Explain to me how masturbation inherently hinders these things. If you can’t, bringing them up is completely irrelevant.

Doing all those things that God requires with our hands, there is no instruction in scripture to include manipulating our genitals in His name.

This is a fallacious argument, as we don’t have to be told “do this” in order to consider a particular action morally permissible. I don’t ever remember being told to debate with ignorant piety but here I am doing so. I don’t ever remember being told “thou shalt use the restroom, read science books, and enjoy movies,” but I do. The fact of the matter is that any activity is morally innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof, then, rests in your prosecution of masturbation, not in the ability of others to prove its moral excellence (though there certainly are benefits to masturbating). Activities are okay by default – we only refrain from something enjoyable if we have reason to. To date, you have given no reason to refrain from masturbation under all circumstances.

Absolutely; the bible would never call anyone a fool; and it would certainly never condemn anyone. . . wait; yegh it would.....? technicly, her explanations are logical connections to the way you all are acting...

I’m sorry, but her “explanations” (or lack thereof) are terrible examples of philosophical debate. I’ll tell you what I told her: when participating in a discussion centered around figuring out whether or not something is morally permissible, it is senseless to condemn people. They already know your stance – the purpose of the discussion is not to repeat it with arrogant condemnation but to provide the reason why you hold that stance. Floatingaxe seems more focused on being self-righteous than responding to questions. You're kidding yourself if you think Jesus would have acted the way she has. The only time He called people out is when they were scheming against Him under the guise of piety. That has not been the case for anyone who has disagreed with Floatingaxe here.. She sees someone who disagrees with her on a moral issue and she starts throwing rocks at them. Yep, just like Jesus. Good call. Let He who is without sin...

well; just speculating. and we have answered you with this before, you simply don't respond.

Where? Show me. Show me where anyone has demonstrated that masturbation inherently falls into the categories of “of the flesh,” “lust,” and “lack of self-control.” Post number please.

you could compare the aspects of masturbation with that of other sin. then compare how it glorifies God.? namely, compare it to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness.

Aspects of masturbation… let’s see: exploring what you like and increasing knowledge of your own sexuality, growing up as a sexual being, relieving stress, avoiding other temptations by relieving sexual tension in a controlled manner, not waking up in a mess of sperm because of wet dreams (for the guys), the promotion of a healthy sex drive… yep, it’s a rotten thing to do. Whew. Bad, bad, masturbation.

I’m not here to say that masturbation is morally innocent regardless of circumstances. It can be sinful if negative consequences start to follow (e.g. if it turns into an addiction). But God is glorified when we enjoy what He gave us: our sexuality. That masturbation isn’t the epitome of our sexual fulfillment is irrelevant – it’s enjoyment nonetheless. And until someone can actually give a reason why masturbation is inherently sinful, I see no reason why everyone must refrain.

 

[Floatingaxe]

wow, this is alot since i left.


Absolutely; the bible would never call anyone a fool; and it would certainly never condemn anyone. . . wait; yegh it would.....? technicly, her explanations are logical connections to the way you all are acting...


well; just speculating. and we have answered you with this before, you simply don't respond. you could compare the aspects of masturbation with that of other sin. then compare how it glorifies God.? namely, compare it to Jesus' temptation in the wilderness.

Dannager you are really one to be talking about someone backed into a corner. maby you should read back a few pages. you believe your faith is true. you validate your faith through reason. you do not believe all scripture is inspired by God. your reason is based on constantly changing social trends, and yourself. therefore you admit that your faith is of your own making, and accept only what you feel comfortable with.

logic is no good without knowledge. and believeing any knowledge requires some aspect of faith. your reason should be placed in something absolute else you're just comforting yourself. your faith will always be changing. you base your faith on your logic. you should base logic on your faith.

YES! The thing is, if you rely on logic and reason, you are relying on an inconstant, a fallible thing, and no faith can stand on that. It's sinking sand.

Luke 6:47-49
I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. But anyone who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.”

 

[Floatingaxe]

Explain to me how masturbation inherently hinders these things. If you can’t, bringing them up is completely irrelevant.

Using our hands for holy use does not include unhloy uses. If we give of ourselves wholly to serve God, we won't have such idle time to perform idle, and lustful behaviours.

 

[Jedi]

Using our hands for holy use does not include unhloy uses. If we give of ourselves wholly to serve God, we won't have such idle time to perform idle, and lustful behaviours.

Insufficient. You're again blindly assuming that masturbation is an "unholy use." Support that assertion. Again, you're only insisting that masturbation is "bad" and by leaving it at that, you get absolutely nowhere. Again, I ask: how, exactly, does masturbation inherently hinder righteousness? And please, don't say something to the effect of "It's bad, perverse, icky, yucky, immoral, sinful, lustful, of the flesh, demonstrates lack of self-control." That would just mean you're running in circles again.