"Logic is the study of entailment, association, correlation and causation. It is a very in-depth field that takes some time to understand. Furthermore, it operates on premises which must first be established. The supernatural cannot be established, which means that logic cannot be used to evaluate the supernatural.......actual reason (logical study) is a defined field"
Logic seems to be sort of like mathematics: laws that are true no matter what we think about them. I see what you mean about it being different from 'common sense'; I made a mistake in my post by equating these things.
I have to say though that logical study is mostly based on what we have observed, and there is plenty that we haven't observed. So our logic can be seriously flawed at times. For an atheist, who has never experienced faith, spiritual things might contradict logic. For a believer, faith is quite a reasonable thing, because the person has the necessary experience ('observation'). What we observe affects 'logical premises'. So it does seem to be a change in the mind, a 'renewal' by the Holy Spirit....hope that makes sense lol.
"You cannot say that our reason is flawed but our interpretation of the Bible is not."
I'm saying that reason without Holy Spirit: flawed. Reason + Holy Spirit: not flawed.
"(me) I believe that because of the fall, we became separated from God, and our minds 'fell' along with our souls...." "I do not believe that this is so"
Honest question: why? hmm..I think that when we fell we became separated from God. He is the source of life, goodness, wisdom, etc...our 'wisdom' turned into foolishness. But if we come back to Him, we are re-united, and are able to understand truth. 'Mind' and 'soul' are very connected things...our spiritual condition affects how we understand the world; thus our (understanding of) reason is tranformed with our souls.
"The rules of reason do not change upon conversion to Christianity"
Objective rules of reason, no. But our understanding of these objective rules of reason, yes...I would argue that without God, we understand them incorrectly.
"No, it doesn't. Our minds must be the most reliable thing we have. You use your mind to read the Bible. If your mind's reliability is lower than that of the Bible, then you cannot trust what you read in the Bible any more than the reliability of your mind will allow."
I see what you're saying, but what I'm saying is that our minds cant' do this alone. We need the Holy Spirit, then our minds become effective and we're able to understand the Bible.
The Bible doesn't tell us that the 'smart people' would understand the truth, but that the spiritual would.
"I don't believe either of those things because I trust the Bible. In fact, neither should you. And neither should anyone. You should trust the Bible because you believe those things. Faith comes first."
I agree, but that's not quite what I meant...what I meant is that if we mistrust the Bible, we are mistrusting the source that tells us about the gospel, which we have accepted. Faith comes from God, but the gospel ("what to believe") comes from the Bible.
"Yes, that much is true. Faith does help us understand scripture. In my case (and in most Christians' cases) faith has led us to understand that the messages of scripture stand apart from their factual accuracy, and that the inerrancy of the Bible isn't important in light of the spiritual truths within."
This is true to the extent that spiritual truth is much more important than historical fact......however, some people water it down to such a degree that they no longer believe in the Resurrection. In their case, the 'spiritual message' is still there, but they have rejected the literal event....which I believe happened....so sometimes it's helpful to just it literally, where it's literal.
"I think this was a message intended to the people of the time, who had the perception that their leaders were wise and intelligent. Jesus was a rebel, you know. The idea that you can always apply scripture to modern times is not a very supportable one."
I don't think so, it says quite plainly: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.." Even today, that's true. Many unbelievers find the idea ridiculous (at least the ones I know), and I did too, several years ago...I think this passage is telling us that those in the darkness can't understand the light.
"Yes, the Bible asks that we believe. But my faith tells me to always question and be on the lookout for incorrect theology. I am never content in my knowledge of the divine, and I do not believe that anyone else should be. We should always strive for a more perfect understanding, even if that means questioning or abandoning closely-held beliefs."
Agreed.
I meant that we shouldn't abandon ideas just because we can't undertand them...at times, we have to hold on to our faith. And when we question our beliefs, we should look to the right sources for answers.
"How are you able to tell whether your conviction comes from God, the media, your society, your church, your peers, your personal guilt, your upbringing or any other factors? Have you spent some time really thinking it over in your mind, or did you start with the conclusion that it must be a sinful conviction and go from there?"
Well, in the past I felt that it's just a shameful thing to do, something you wouldn't mention in public. One day, I opened my university student newspaper, and saw a - rather awful, I must say - article that told girls how to touch. I began thinking about it, and looked at it from a spiritual perspective..I came up with a few questions:
"how does this glorify God?" (I dont know)
"what does it do except provide (self) pleasure?" (nothing?)
"if I feel it to be immoral, wouldn't it be against my conscience to do it?" (yes..God forgives, but its' best to follow the conscience)
While I was reading this thread, I prayed about it...I still feel the same.
monica
and that's very true about addictions..
