what do you know about Islam?

[Montalban]

yes you did over and over but i didn't ask you what do you think about a 10 year girl having sex ?? no i didn't ask that

Yes you did. In fact you repeat it now...

my first question was if you have a 10 year girl who did sex wellingly do you consider the one whom she did that with as a criminal?? you didn't answer directly with yes or no you turned the question and you said she is n't an adult although i didn't ask about the girl condition but the person she did that with.

Of course I think it's criminal. I've been railing against this now for how many days?

is it hard for you to say yes i do think he''s acriminal or no it's normal sex is n't a crime i our country

Is it hard for you to comprehend what I've written for days?

the secnd question was if it's ok for a 10 year girl o do sex??

Which is again what you denied doing in the top of your post!

 

[Montalban]

Whose laws are you talking about? Christian laws? Those are covered by the commandments of Christ: 1) Love your God with all of your heart, and 2) Love your neighbor as your self. These two encompass the whole law. We are not to follow human examples for our morality. This is not the case for you as a Muslim.

Interestingly Thomas Aquinas* talks of a legal requirement for marriage is 'consent', and that this should be made known.

In Islam, at a marriage, a girls silence is deemed to be consent.

*-one of the people Islam_mulia believes never discussed marriage to young people. Thomas Aquinas (probably wrongly) attribtes to John Chrysostom the following sentence "It is not coition but consent that makes a marriage."

 

[elwill]

Then what do you do with his immoral actions? Do you ignore them and only look at the good ones? Maybe you don't have the ability to discern immorality unless it is defined by your prophet's actions. In that case, you would be limiting God's morality to your prophet's actions and life.

immoral action !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i told you before , and i will tell you again , the marriage for 9yo not immoral action may be it's illegal but it dosn't mean that it immoral (it's normal marriage )
not everything illegal is immoral
15 yo driver of car without licence is illegal but not immoral
homosexuality is legal in you country , commiting adultery is legal in your country , but it's immoral

so , if you consider this kind of marriage is immoral , so we didn't , i disagree with you in that

I guess that I should ask this question: How do you define perfect example? When Mohammad ordered people who wrote unpleasant poetry against hm, was that righteous of him to have them murdered? Is that a perfect example? Are there any actions that Mohammad did that you would call unrighteous? The answers to these questions are very important to my understanding of your POV and how you judge morality.

from your view about bin_laden
are you wanna to kill Osama bin laden ? why ?
he didn't kill innocents by himself , he just support them by his money and his commands and his leadership , so he just encourage them !!!!!!!!!!


it's the same with whom the prophet ordered him to be killed , he went to the enemy and encourage them to kill the muslims and encourage them to prepare for another war against them

Is this a selctive approach? Why not address his negatives as well. In that way, you can be seen as a more fair and unbiased person.

no it isn't selective , the prophet not command us or denyed us about age of bride , so it's silence
but we don't see it an immoral practice , actually i think that your grand grand mother may be married underage.

oooh ,please , marrying in this age is immoral , who mentioned you ?

It is unreasonalbe to believe that your prophet did no wrong and don't have any examples that should not be practiced as Muslim. I think you and many other Muslims are so heavily indoctrinated that you can't discern truth from error, IMO. You have probably heard all of these good things about your prophet that you have not yet taken the time to honestly evualuate what you have been taught and heard. Is that a fair assessement?

don't talk about fair
we judge on our prophet more fair than you , because we knew his history and his biography , what about you ?
how much do you know about mohammed (pbuh) to judge on him ?

Whose laws are you talking about? Christian laws? Those are covered by the commandments of Christ: 1) Love your God with all of your heart, and 2) Love your neighbor as your self. These two encompass the whole law. We are not to follow human examples for our morality. This is not the case for you as a Muslim.

empty relegion
anyway , i'm talking about legal systems , i know that you refused allreday the laws of your God in old testament

You must be talking about governmental laws. In a more democratic society, Christians recognize that they cannot make nonChristians conform to their moral standards. We have to allow for others to believe and practice their own philosophies and religions as a given right of their personal expression.

the same with marrying from early age , its governmental laws
it's not disappoint the God in any relegion in the world
and you are not massanger from God to tell me it's immoral from God's view nowadays

 

[elwill]

What is it with elwill's posts?

When I cite Islamic evidence he ignores it. I cited evidence from the UN (hardly an anti-Islamic site). Then he demands I repost it. I do, and he ignores it. What was the point in asking me to trawl back through all my posts to find where I had originally cited it?

He sits back until I post something from a non-Islamic site then jumps in and re-writes my posts to pretend that I'm saying a non-Islamic site is an Islamic one.

I challenge him to show where I made such a claim.

He seems determined to do a rewrite every single post.

i'm sorry
i really didn't see from you any muslims sites , you still repeat it without provide any site ,through all this argument i didn't see but just one islamic site , and i responded to you from the same site you stated

 

[Islam_mulia]

Islam_mulia makes a point. Islam_mulia doesn't prove it.
Islam_mulia demands people prove the opposite.
Islam_mulia decries the difficulty of proving his point.
Islam_mulia doesn't show what an alleged 'silence' has to do with condoning an act, anyway.

I am beginning to enjoy this. Initially, I had the feeling that maybe along the line between Jesus and some early Christian teachers, there might just one Christian who would write something against child marriage. Sadly, there was NONE.

Your desperate attempt not to answer my point that Jesus, whom you claim as god, and Paul, whom you claimed as an Aposle of God, and the many Christian fathers who you believe provide sensible teachings and guidance, did not or failed to condemn child marriage which you claimed as a crime.

How can a god, whom you said live among the Jews who practiced child marriage, could remain silent over this 'crime'? If you believe Jesus ask to throw the first stone over an adultress, surely you must agree that a bigger issue of a child welfare was a more important issue that requires the god-man to step forward and put a stop to it.

I am repeating myself, am I not? Well, I dont mind. I dont have to prove anything, Montalban. Most of the questions you posed have been answered by Muslims here. Well, we hit the ball everytime it crossed our court. Sadly, your racket is full of holes you cant hit the ball.

I am out of this discussion with you. To my Muslim brothers and sisters who wish to further discuss with Montalban, pls do so. Keep this point in mind:

1) When a Christian claimed something bad about Islam, you would find that the bible and their christian traditions do not object over such matter. Trust me, Montalban is well aware of this and his constant diversion not to answer my question further strengthen this point. He even asked me to get water by squeezing the rock.

2) Take note that when Montalban questions Islam, he might not be wearing his Christian cap, meaning, he is not asking using Christianity as a basis of his defence. This episode of child marriage is one clear example. More likely than not, his questions are based on his non-religious moralist view, which actually could be detrimental to his Christian faith. Ask him and he will not tell you.

3) When a Muslim answered Montalban's accusation, he might say that this is not a Muslim's position (he then becomes a spokesman for the Muslims and claim this and that is what Muslims actually believe). We seen that many times, haven't we?

4) You can lift your head high, my dear brothers and sisters, for you have attempted to answer all his accusations. Of course you could not expect him to accept them... but that's Montalban. Throw him one single question, and he ask you to reply instead. Montalban could not answer a simple question as where in the bible and traditions did Jesus or any Christian fathers oppose child marriage. And you expect him to be the spokesman for the Muslims? lol

Take care

Cheers

 

[Zstar]

The hadiths are compilations of oral accounts concerning the life of Muhammed and the history of the early Islamic community. They were penned down about two centuries after the events, which raises all kinds of reliability issues. The art of discerning the truth of the matter from the hadiths is a science in itself.

Thanks for the information!

"In Islam, the Arabic word sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad..., the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur'an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them."

The discerning of the truth from the Hadiths does sound like something one could do in error especially if they contain un-truths to begin with. One of the portions that stands out to me in them is "Do not hurt me regarding Aisha, as the Divine Inspirations do not come to me on any of the beds except that of Aisha." That combined with the story about Jesus and his look-alike makes me wonder about the prophets definition of "Divine Inspirations" - maybe they were not so Divine at all except in claims. Then again maybe some portions are Divine mixed in amongst the others and that is what appeals to those about the religion, thats all good for them but personally the confusion of what's truth and whats not is a science that I would rather not study.

 

[TaleSpin]

What do you know about islam?

It’s a question I always wanted to ask to non- Muslim
Does Islam mean terrorism??
Does Islam mean violence???
Does Islam mean women depression???
Is Islam a barbaric religion only for Arabs?​

If so then why you didn't ask your self why Muslims numbers are increasing everyday

Gurdian,Monday March 31 2008

The number of Muslims has overtaken that of Roman Catholics for the first time, the Vatican said yesterday.​

Muslims account for 19.2% of the world's population, while Catholics make up 17.4%, according to the Vatican's new statistics yearbook, which is based on figures for 2006.

"For the first time in history we are no longer at the top: the Muslims have overtaken us," said Monsignor Vittorio Formenti, who edited the yearbook.

"While it is known that Muslim families continue to have many children, Christian families are having fewer," he said in an interview with the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano.
The article said that Muslims have many children sothat they are many. It didn't mentioned that many people have entered Islam
Muslims in Europe are about 12,5 million , in America about 8 million and so on statics are a lot you can find more by searching in google
Think for a minute why islam spreading in the world ? although it is attacked by many ways
Think and tell me
Pardon my English ​

Hi;

Your English is good, I can understand. To answer your survey questions, I know some things about Islam since I took a course on it in college. Muslims have 5 prayers daily, a designated prayer and worship day on Friday when they hear a Khutbah in their mosques. Muslims have holidays including Ramadan which lasts 1 month based on a lunar Calendar. There are five pillars to Islam which include: alms giving, saying the daily prayers, attending Hajj if possible, fasting and I cannot remember the fifth. They believe Mohammed was the last of the Prophets found in the Bible.

I do not think Islam means terrorism but I do feel it is closely associated with terrorism and with violence because of Jihad and arrogance. I think oppression of women is part of Islam since it is so strongly tied to a traditionally patriarchal society. I do not know if I would go so far as to call it barbaric but I think Islam is very near barbaric. And I think that it really is only for Arabs, even though anybody can theoretically be a muslim.

I think muslims increase everyday for a variety of reasons, muslims lie about the number of people becomming muslim, birth rates are higher for muslims, the liberal media and high education system give islam preferencial status and look the other way toward violence in Islam et cetera.

Regards

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by elwill

immoral action !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i told you before , and i will tell you again , the marriage for 9yo not immoral action may be it's illegal but it dosn't mean that it immoral (it's normal marriage )

I agree that immoral[FONT=&quot] ≠[/FONT] illegal, but it can be. Since we are talking about Mohammad being a perfect example, it does matter and would be an huge issue. Defending it based on moral relative circumstances (it was normal at that time or no one objected to it) shows that you don't see the problem. The fact is that it is seen as immoral today. If it were wrong yesterday, then it would be wrong today as a example of moral conduct. Do you see the problem? Many societies were barbaric throughout history. It was normal for them to kill and war with each other for political control and other matters. Would their normal acts of that time be good in God's eyes? Even in 6th century Arabia, people buried their children alive. Some tribes did not object to the practice. Would that normal act be OK with you?

not everything illegal is immoral

Absolutely true! and not everything moral is illegal, which I hope that you already know. But, it is easy to hide your prophet behind a religious curtain if he did something immoral by todays standards and excuse him based upon yesterday's circumstances. I don't think that you are putting yourself in a position of allowing your prophet from being called out on things that he did that are highly questionable as immoral acts for someone who is claimed to be a perfect example for all times.

15 yo driver of car without licence is illegal but not immoral
homosexuality is legal in you country , commiting adultery is legal in your country , but it's immoral

Elwill, you are not correct. Homosexuality and adultery are not legal. What is legal is the rights of homosexuals to be treated as any other citizen should be treated--with dignity and respect before the law--not a religious law either. You are confusing things. We don't go around trying to kill them for their assumed sins like Sharia would have it. Now that would be something immoral. God is their judge--not you or I.

Anyways, that is not a very good example. We are talking about Mohammad, and not a non moral and nonspiritual act that determines a person's righteousness before God.

so , if you consider this kind of marriage is immoral , so we didn't , i disagree with you in that

Naturally you disagree because it would paint a negative picture of your prophet. You are more worried about your prophet's image and reputation than you are of what is immoral. That is why you can see that the tribes in Arabia were always wrong and Mohammad could do heinous acts against them and not be called out on them. In your Islamic history, Muslims never--I repeat, 'never'--have admitted that some of Mohammad's actions caused the Arab tribes to defend themselves against him in a righteous manner. All I ever hear is that they did something that justified Mohammad's actions. According to you and other Muslims, Mohammad never did anything wrong or immoral to them. We never see Allah condemning Mohammad for treating those tribes wrongly or immorally. That speaks volumes about your religion and prophet.

from your view about bin_laden
are you wanna to kill Osama bin laden ? why ?
he didn't kill innocents by himself , he just support them by his money and his commands and his leadership , so he just encourage them !!!!!!!!!!

I have not mentioned anything about bin Laden; so, don't discuss it. I see that you didn't answer my questions. Would you care to address them instead?

it's the same with whom the prophet ordered him to be killed , he went to the enemy and encourage them to kill the muslims and encourage them to prepare for another war against them

By that standard, the U.S. should go and kill leaders of Islamic nations that are trying to encourage enemies of the U.S. to war with them? Would the U.S. be justified for killing them on that basis? You can't go around killing people based upon what you think they are doing or on what you think may happen if you don't. Likewise, shouldn't the enemies of Mohammad be able to justify their actions on Mohammad in the same way? Mohammad also talked to their enemies and encouraged them to fight with him against his enemies. To me that is a lame excuse of justification. That ruins his perfect example. Additionally, should we kill bin Laden on the basis that he is encouraging others to kill infidels in the name of Islam? She we kill all Islamic leaders who detest the West and want to see it destroyed? My reasoning tells me that we can't legislate what other people think or what they will potentially do by killing them.

no it isn't selective , the prophet not command us or denyed us about age of bride , so it's silence

But, since he did it under God's will, then it becomes an example that you can follow. Don't miss that main point.

but we don't see it an immoral practice , actually i think that your grand grand mother may be married underage.

But, she wouldn't be someone that God sent to make as an example for us to follow in deeds and righteousness. She would not be proclaiming that she represents a moral standard that God requires. That point is lacking in your responses. I don't know if it is on purpose or not.

oooh ,please , marrying in this age is immoral , who mentioned you ?

Now you are shifting back to moral and cultural relativism. You can't seem to separate the moral aspects from the cultural aspects that made such marriages normal. As mentioned earlier, live child burials and other heinous acts were normal for some tribes in ancient times. Would those culturally, religious, and societal norms be OK with you? Your argument reduces to normality makes it right, especially when dealing with religion. Since you don't see a problem with it, then it is moral. Not a good argument at all.

don't talk about fair
we judge on our prophet more fair than you

Just because you are a Muslim, that automatically grants you that privilege. Only Muslims can see immorality and judge it as such. An act is not immoral unless Muslims declares it. Is that what you are trying to say? I really feel sorrow for Muslims who are so indoctrinated with religion that they have lost some of their ability to be rational and reasonable about things outside of their religious sphere. Your objectivity has been reduced to almost zero when it comes to seeing a balanced view of Islam.

, because we knew his history and his biography , what about you ?
how much do you know about mohammed (pbuh) to judge on him ?

This is a smoke screen and a weak defense. I can read and study just like you. You are not different or have some special gift to read.

Do I really need to know the person completely to judge if that person does something wrong? Are you saying that I can't tell that you are wrong unless I know your complete history? That is asinine! If I see a kid lying, I need to know the kid's entire history to determine a lie? I think that part of your problem too is that somehow only Muslims can properly judge Mohammad's morality and character. You would have me believe that non Muslims can't read and be fairly objective in what they read. I suppose your mentality is that non Muslims are out to make my prophet look bad. It is not possible that they are simply making a judgment based upon reasonable information. If I were to use your argument (I presume this is your argument), then I could say that you can't make judgments about any other religion since you would not be aware of its history in detail.

empty relegion
anyway , i'm talking about legal systems , i know that you refused allreday the laws of your God in old testament

Thanks for the judgment you just placed upon beliefs. I find it funny that you are doing the exact thing that you said that non Muslims could do in regards to judging your prophet's morality. I am really impressed.

If your religion adopts an non religious action, that action now becomes part of your religion.

Gentiles were not under the OT system given to Ancient Israel. Jesus saved us from legal requirements such as Sharia. We follow God by Spirit--not by which direction we pray or by what position we pray, or by how many times we must pray per day. True Christians are not supposed to be religious. Religious people are those who depend upon their rituals and good deeds to save them, as in Islam.

the same with marrying from early age , its governmental laws
it's not disappoint the God in any relegion in the world
and you are not massanger from God to tell me it's immoral from God's view nowadays

Two reasons that this doesn't apply to Islam: 1) Mohammad is your example; therefore, his actions can be emulated as a religious example. If he does something, that act automatically becomes part of your religious examples. There does not need to be a law to practice Mohammad's actions. 2) Even messengers of God have to be governed by the same standards as any other human being, unless you want to grant them special privileges as Mohammad received from Allah. God is no respector of persons. He does not exempt prophets from his laws as we see with Mohammad.

Whether you accept it or not, God does give the individual the ability to discern immorality. We don't need a prophet to tell us that something is wrong. I do understand that not everyone has the same standard of morality, but that is another issue.

 

[Montalban]

I am beginning to enjoy this. Initially, I had the feeling that maybe along the line between Jesus and some early Christian teachers, there might just one Christian who would write something against child marriage. Sadly, there was NONE.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Prove that there are none

Your desperate attempt not to answer my point that Jesus, whom you claim as god, and Paul, whom you claimed as an Aposle of God, and the many Christian fathers who you believe provide sensible teachings and guidance, did not or failed to condemn child marriage which you claimed as a crime.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

I answered your point. You've nothing but your own belief that what you say is true and you demande people prove the opposite of your opinion.

No wonder you 'enjoy' it, there's no argument for you to struggle with. Things like facts, that's other people's 'problem'. You even whine about the potenital difficulties for you in proving your point - so you don't.

I'm still waiting for you to deal with John of Damascus' work. Still, you see an opportunity to wax lyrical, that's up to you. I take it you're unable to prove your point and have bowed out of discussion of the matter.

 

[Montalban]

The discerning of the truth from the Hadiths does sound like something one could do in error especially if they contain un-truths to begin with. One of the portions that stands out to me in them is "Do not hurt me regarding Aisha, as the Divine Inspirations do not come to me on any of the beds except that of Aisha." That combined with the story about Jesus and his look-alike makes me wonder about the prophets definition of "Divine Inspirations" - maybe they were not so Divine at all except in claims. Then again maybe some portions are Divine mixed in amongst the others and that is what appeals to those about the religion, thats all good for them but personally the confusion of what's truth and whats not is a science that I would rather not study. [/FONT]

Certainly there are Hadith that they deem to be 'unreliable'. But they have a whole 'science of hadith' to determine lines of transmission, and thus reliability.

 

[Montalban]

i'm sorry
i really didn't see from you any muslims sites , you still repeat it without provide any site ,through all this argument i didn't see but just one islamic site , and i responded to you from the same site you stated

And so you go again. You ask me to re-cite material I know, from experience you won't deal with. Rather than re-cite it, but more to prove my previously stated assumption of you, I cited such in post #25 and repeated it at post #100. You posted in between these, and after #100. No comment on them from you.

I stated one, twice that deals with the fact that 'nine years old' in the Hadith can only be translated as 'nine years old'. I also cited various Moslem advice sites (post #105). And, indeed, I have cited a non-Islamic site. I've also sited 'nuetral' sites, such as a university for translations of Koran and Hadith.

All of that you managed to reduce to me citing only an anti-Islamic site. For shame.

Like my UN citation you ignored it. Waited a while. Asked for a re-citation. Then ignored it again. Waited till I posted from an anti-Islamic site then insinuated that that's the source of all the information. You simply repeat that process here.

 

[Montalban]

I re-cite this for KatAutumn and Booko who also are yet to address this information... with KatAutumn arguing too that I only cited from anti-Islamic sites.

Here's more confirmation - this time from Islamic sites that state her age, and also give advice to Moslems TODAYabout what to do based on this example (showing it's not just of that time/place)

Here's another ruling from another expert site - a site that presents Islamic facts to Moslems...
Q). I have a nine year-old girl who is married to a person at the age of 20. The marriage contract was made a year ago but the girl is refusing to live with her husband or even to look at him. In addition to that she requires him to divorce her. Could you please advise me what to do? Should I separate them or force my daughter to live with him?
(Name and address withheld)
A). It is certainly possible for a father to get his daughter married to someone who he thinks is suitable for her. Whether he should force her into any marriage is something totally different Let me relate this to you: A woman companion of the Prophet came to him and said: "My father has married me away to one of his relatives without asking my opinion. I do not wish to stay with this man as his wife." The Prophet ordered their separation. When she realized that she was free and that she was no longer married to the man, she said to the Prophet: "I now accept what my father has done and I am marrying this man. I only did this so that women may know that it is not up to men to marry them away against their wishes."
Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty, when she is given the choice whether to continue with this marriage or not. Moreover her father may not marry her away to someone who is of a lesser status than hers. If he does and she objects, the marriage is not valid. Generally speaking, however. a girl must be asked to express her opinion in any proposed marriage. If she has been married before, then her verbal consent should be requested. If she has not been married previously, then her consent is also to be requested, but if she keeps quiet, her silence is taken as approval.
To say that the marriage is valid is not to say that people should go ahead and make such marriages. There may be certain circumstances, which make it desirable or advisable that a very young girl should be married away in this manner but this must not be taken as the normal situation. In marriage, the normal thing is that people should marry when they are of marriageable age. That does not include girls of nine or ten years of age, although some girls may attain puberty that early. Marriage involves certain responsibilities and a very young girl could not be expected to shoulder these. There are also other problems, which the may face, as she grows older. If things go wrong with her marriage, she will always blame her father for having messed up her life, well intentioned though he may be. If you take the example of your own daughter, and you force her to go and live with her husband despite her protestations, you will never be sure whether the marriage will work out well or not. If it does, then well and good. But there is an equal chance that problems may arise especially with your daughter behaving like the child she is. While her husband expects from her the attitude of a married woman. How could you expect her to overcome the feeling that she has been thrown into this situation without being allowed the slightest say in the whole matter which is to affect the rest of her life?

As we see it, your choice is either to get her divorced now, before the marriage is consummated or to keep her with you until she has attained puberty and she is in a position to express her opinion about this marriage. If she still objects to it, then you divorce her without any compulsion to go through with it. If, on the other hand, if she approves of this marriage, at that time, then you go ahead with it. Perhaps it is better for you to consult with the young man to whom you have already married her. He should be understanding and accommodating. Between the two of you should work out the best solution which ensures that he is not lumbered with marriage which is forced on a young girl who cannot be expected to give an opinion about such a matter.
http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.98/marriage.htm#EAR

I need to know, when did the Holy Prophet get married to Hazrat Aisha, there have been claims on newsgroups that the Holy Prophet was a pedophile. I want enough information to be able to answer such allegations.

I need to know everything about this particular marriage, quoting sources.

Wa-alaikum


Praise be to Allaah.

The answer to your question may be found in the ahaadeeth of Saheeh al-Bukhaari and the commentary of al-Haafiz al-‘Asqallaani, which are quoted below:

‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: "The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me when I was six years old. Then we came to Madeenah and stayed in Bani al-Haarith ibn Khazraj. I fell ill and my hair started to fall out (due to the illness; then it grew back thick again). My mother Umm Roomaan came to me whilst I was on a swing and my friends were with me. She shouted for me and I came to her, not knowing what she wanted. She took me by the hand and led me to the door of the house. I was out of breath and we waited until I had calmed down, then she took some water and wiped my face and head, then took me inside. There were some women of the Ansaar in the house, and they said: " ‘Alaa al-khayri wa’l-baraka wa ‘ala khayri taa’ir (blessings, best wishes, etc)." My mother handed me over to them and they tidied me up, then suddenly the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was there. It was mid-morning, and they handed me over to him. At that time I was nine years old." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3605).

‘Urwah said: "Khadeejah died three years before the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) migrated to Madeenah. He stayed alone for two years or thereabouts, then he married ‘Aa’ishah when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 3607)

The phrase "he married ‘Aa’ishah" means that the marriage contract was drawn up; the marriage was consummated later on, when she was nine.

Muslim reports from al-Zuhri, from ‘Urwah, that ‘Aa’ishah said that she was taken to him when she was nine years old, and she took her toys with her. He died when she was eighteen years old. Muslim also reports a similar account from ‘Aa’ishah via al-Aswad. He reports from ‘Abdullaah ibn ‘Urwah from his father that ‘Aa’ishah said: "The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married me in Shawwaal and consummated the marriage with me in Shawwaal."

‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married her when she was six years old and consummated the marriage when she was nine years old, and she stayed with him for nine years." (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 4738)

Al-Bukhaari calls this chapter of his Saheeh "Baab inkaah al-rajul wuldahu (or waladahu) al-sighaar (Chapter on a man marrying off his young children)." The fact that Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
". . . and for those who have no courses [periods] [(i.e., they are still immature) their ‘iddah is three months likewise, except in case of death] . . ." [al-Talaaq 65:4]
is an indication that it is permissible to marry girls below the age of adolescence. This is a good understanding, but the aayah makes no specific mention of either the father or the young girl. It could be said that the basic principle concerning marrying children is that it is forbidden unless there is specific evidence (daleel) to indicate otherwise. The hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah states that her father Abu Bakr married her off before the age of puberty, but there is no other evidence apart from that, so the rule applies to all other cases.

Al- Muhallab said: "[The scholars] agreed that it is permissible for a father to marry off his young virgin daughter, even though it is not usually the case to have intercourse with such a young woman."

(The above was summarized from Fath al-Baari Sharh ‘ala Saheeh al-Bukhaari)

In summary, then, it is permitted to contract marriage with a young girl and to [nd her over to her husband to stay with him before she reaches adolescence. As for consummating the marriage, this does not happen until she is physically able for it. Thus the matter becomes quite clear. Do you see anything wrong with a man living with his young wife in one house, bringing her up and teaching her, but delaying consummation until she is ready for it? We ask Allaah to show us truth and falsehood and to make each clear. And Allaah knows best.


http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/1493

And who decides when she is of age for cosmummating, once she's already married...? The husband

Is this harmful?

Yes...

"Fact Sheet No.23, Harmful Traditional Practices Affecting the Health of Women and Children

Traditional cultural practices reflect values and beliefs held by members of a community for periods often spanning generations. Every social grouping in the world has specific traditional cultural practices and beliefs, some of which are beneficial to all members, while others are harmful to a specific group, such as women. These harmful traditional practices include female genital mutilation (FGM); forced feeding of women; early marriage; the various taboos or practices which prevent women from controlling their own fertility; nutritional taboos and traditional birth practices; son preference and its implications for the status of the girl child; female infanticide; early pregnancy; and dowry price. Despite their harmful nature and their violation of international human rights laws, such practices persist because they are not questioned and take on an aura of morality in the eyes of those practising them."

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu6/2/fs23.htm

 

[Montalban]

4) You can lift your head high, my dear brothers and sisters, for you have attempted to answer all his accusations. Of course you could not expect him to accept them... but that's Montalban. Throw him one single question, and he ask you to reply instead. Montalban could not answer a simple question as where in the bible and traditions did Jesus or any Christian fathers oppose child marriage. And you expect him to be the spokesman for the Muslims?

Just another point. It is your statement that there is total silence from the Church on the matter, not mine. Not only have you yet to prove there is silence, and that this silence equates to condoning it, and even though I bear no burden of the onus of proof, I for the sake of disucssion did raise a few pointers. You ignore these so eager to crow about your false victory.

I have said a child can not consent. I cited Thomas Aquinas (not an Orthodox, but sulrely within your broad idea of 'church') who said that only someone who can consent can marry... and for sake of juxtoposition stated that in Islam her silence is consent (perhaps this is why you feel it be the same with the Church Fathers). AND this is when you still shy away from proving your case. But I’ve never been one to back away from discussion. Even when YOU have to prove your claim, not that I have to prove the opposite, simply because you claim something. I gave you an opportunity to discuss what I had written. You don't want to. Fine. I'll await your proof of your claim.

You’re as bad as elwill at ignoring evidence, and as poor a debator as Futuwwa in comprehending what constitutes proof, and who should prove what.

You and Futuwwa have this in common. You make a statement and demand everyone prove the opposite.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi;
.........I think muslims increase everyday for a variety of reasons, muslims lie about the number of people becomming muslim, birth rates are higher for muslims, the liberal media and high education system give islam preferencial status and look the other way toward violence in Islam et cetera............

Regards

The "Islam Mafia"

Muslim: "I'll make him an offer he can't refuse".

 

[Montalban]

Recently a local council refused a grant to build a Moslem school. They claimed the proposal would have breached local planning regulations.

The council has now been branded a racist council by all manner of left-leaning loonies and of couse the Moslems.

I had a discussion with a Communist friend of mine over this just today. He too accused them of being racist.

I said he was in fact being racist - because he had no proof that the council had given into Islamophobia - his rant against the council was based on a stereotype - that 'white' Australians would react a certain way.

His response was that 'white' Australians can't be a 'victim' of racism.

So a Moslem might taunt an 'Aussie'! And they do. 'White' Australians are called Skips (from Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo). That's 'okay' according to the likes of my friend, because it's not racism.

On a larger scale this goes on with Islam and its protection in the left-wing press

 

[um hamza]

I am beginning to enjoy this. Initially, I had the feeling that maybe along the line between Jesus and some early Christian teachers, there might just one Christian who would write something against child marriage. Sadly, there was NONE.

Your desperate attempt not to answer my point that Jesus, whom you claim as god, and Paul, whom you claimed as an Aposle of God, and the many Christian fathers who you believe provide sensible teachings and guidance, did not or failed to condemn child marriage which you claimed as a crime.

How can a god, whom you said live among the Jews who practiced child marriage, could remain silent over this 'crime'? If you believe Jesus ask to throw the first stone over an adultress, surely you must agree that a bigger issue of a child welfare was a more important issue that requires the god-man to step forward and put a stop to it.

I am repeating myself, am I not? Well, I dont mind. I dont have to prove anything, Montalban. Most of the questions you posed have been answered by Muslims here. Well, we hit the ball everytime it crossed our court. Sadly, your racket is full of holes you cant hit the ball.
yes,i think so too every time he asks a question many ppl answer him but he doesn't care, for about 250 replays all talking about a 9 year girl get married i think it will never end i think he wants us as muslim say oh that's right it was a crime she is a young girl she can't be married and so onand i want to tell him that my beloved Muhamed peace be upon him is the only pesron on the earth who we loved even more than our own souls not you montalban or thousands like you woeld make us even littel bit think that he did a wrong thing O My Prophet when shal we meet you we missed you alot i wish you are here , soon we will meet peace be upon you

I am out of this discussion with you.me too he just wanted to waste our time and he will never agree or even say to any Muslim yes you are right i think as we try to get orange juce from a fish To my Muslim brothers and sisters who wish to further discuss with Montalban, pls do so. Keep this point in mind:

1) When a Christian claimed something bad about Islam, you would find that the bible and their christian traditions do not object over such matter. Trust me, Montalban is well aware of this and his constant diversion not to answer my question further strengthen this point. He even asked me to get water by squeezing the rock.

2) Take note that when Montalban questions Islam, he might not be wearing his Christian cap, meaning, he is not asking using Christianity as a basis of his defence. This episode of child marriage is one clear example. More likely than not, his questions are based on his non-religious moralist view, which actually could be detrimental to his Christian faith. Ask him and he will not tell you.
that's true i even thought that he is n't christian but when i saw his profil i wondred that he is a christian but arthdox i thing those arthodox the most christian who hates islam and muslims here in Egypt most christains are arthodox you that it's forbeden to them to read Quran but i will tell you something makes every Muslim happy
one of there priests said in alecture in church that "ppl who turned to islam is increasing every day and i wouldn't tell you the number because it is depressing it makes any preist to depress " prais be to Allah

3) When a Muslim answered Montalban's accusation, he might say that this is not a Muslim's position (he then becomes a spokesman for the Muslims and claim this and that is what Muslims actually believe). We seen that many times, haven't we?
and he also answers as if he is a muslim i don't know why although no body asked him to answer for us

4) You can lift your head high, my dear brothers and sisters, for you have attempted to answer all his accusations. Of course you could not expect him to accept them.and he will never do he just argue to argue he doesn't want to get a solution he just talk and talk and claims that we repeat and run from his questions and he did so not us.. but that's Montalban. Throw him one single question, and he ask you to reply instead. Montalban could not answer a simple question not only this i have asked him many questons he picks questions that he wants to answer and ignore others and his answers actuely far away from the question as where in the bible and traditions did Jesus or any Christian fathers oppose child marriage. And you expect him to be the spokesman for the Muslims? lol

Take care

Cheers

thanx for the advice may Allah guide Montalban to the right way as many of his fellow christian did before

 

[beamishboy]

Recently a local council refused a grant to build a Moslem school. They claimed the proposal would have breached local planning regulations.

The council has now been branded a racist council by all manner of left-leaning loonies and of couse the Moslems.

I had a discussion with a Communist friend of mine over this just today. He too accused them of being racist.

I said he was in fact being racist - because he had no proof that the council had given into Islamophobia - his rant against the council was based on a stereotype - that 'white' Australians would react a certain way.

His response was that 'white' Australians can't be a 'victim' of racism.

So a Moslem might taunt an 'Aussie'! And they do. 'White' Australians are called Skips (from Skippy, the Bush Kangaroo). That's 'okay' according to the likes of my friend, because it's not racism.

On a larger scale this goes on with Islam and its protection in the left-wing press

Yes, I find that VERY STRANGE. But even stranger is the fact that it's Caucasians who fight very hard to ensure that there is racism against Caucasians. I wonder why. There is just too much conscience that the West has.

Just look at Japan. They tortured and killed so many Asians and today they are still unrepentant. They say in their text books that they merely liberated the Asians and they continue to worship World War II war criminals who tortured and killed millions in their Yasukuni Shrine. Imagine having a shrine for Hitler and worshipping Hitler regularly. Their previous PM did that, to the anger of the Chinese and Koreans.

I'm not advocating that we become as heartless and inhumane as the Japanese. I'm saying we should stop the self-castigation.

 

[Montalban]

thanx for the advice may Allah guide Montalban to the right way as many of his fellow christian did before

Can none of you deal with evidence? Claims of vicotries past probably are necessary for you if you're comfort zone is quickly shrinking

 

[Montalban]

Yes, I find that VERY STRANGE. But even stranger is the fact that it's Caucasians who fight very hard to ensure that there is racism against Caucasians. I wonder why. There is just too much conscience that the West has.

Just look at Japan. They tortured and killed so many Asians and today they are still unrepentant. They say in their text books that they merely liberated the Asians and they continue to worship World War II war criminals who tortured and killed millions in their Yasukuni Shrine. Imagine having a shrine for Hitler and worshipping Hitler regularly. Their previous PM did that, to the anger of the Chinese and Koreans.

I'm not advocating that we become as heartless and inhumane as the Japanese. I'm saying we should stop the self-castigation.

Indeed! Revisionist apology only seems to go one way. The pope apologises for the crusades. Moslems are unrepentant for the 300 years of their aggression prior to those Crusades. I've even seen Moslems here come up with the most convoluted use of history - one claiming that they were 'invited' into Spain.

Many years ago I was a member of an Islamic group - as a non-Moslem member. I thought that it was a sign of their 'progress' that they had members such as myself. They produced a web-site which was full of strange re-writes, such as when Constantinople fell to the Turks, it was a 'liberation' by the Turks.

To a lesser degree this strange logic goes on here where Moslems make just-so statements, offer no proofs and yet demand that people prove the opposite. I've just noted another engaged in back-slapping for a Moslem doing just that.

One Moslem here has continually asked me to re-post evidence and yet never deals with it when I do... excepting once when I offerend a non-Islamic site to suggest that's all I offered.

Anyway, I'm not here to convince them at all. I'm here for other people reading this so that they can see what type of arguments are put forward - by the various sides.

I think that their inability to string together cogent thought is a sign of the influence of the ultimate master of confusion.

 

[beamishboy]

Indeed! Revisionist apology only seems to go one way. The pope apologises for the crusades. Moslems are unrepentant for the 300 years of their aggression prior to those Crusades. I've even seen Moslems here come up with the most convoluted use of history - one claiming that they were 'invited' into Spain.

Many years ago I was a member of an Islamic group - as a non-Moslem member. I thought that it was a sign of their 'progress' that they had [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] members such as myself. They produced a web-site which was full of strange re-writes, such as when Constantinople fell to the Turks, it was a 'liberation' by the Turks.

To a lesser degree this strange logic goes on here where Moslems make just-so statements, offer no proofs and yet demand that people prove the opposite. I've just noted another engaged in back-slapping for a Moslem doing just that.

One Moslem here has continually asked me to re-post evidence and yet never deals with it when I do... excepting once when I offerend a non-Islamic site to suggest that's all I offered.

Anyway, I'm not here to convince them at all. I'm here for other people reading this so that they can see what type of arguments are put forward - by the various sides.

I think that their inability to string together cogent thought is a sign of the influence of the ultimate master of confusion.

You are spot on!! I agree 100%