what do you know about Islam?

[um hamza]

*sigh*
That's the point. A child is not deemed responsible! That's the very reason to reject the idea of a 40+ man having sex with a 9 year old

what do you mean when a 10 years girl do sex by her well doesn't responsible??? how come?? or you mean that she was forced???? in western ?? iam telling you in western countries girls do that wellingly and they become pregnantthey are thousands cases not even hundreds and i don't know how many did this without being pregnant i think it will be a huge number
and i will ask you this if you have a 10 years girl and she did sex you would tell her that she was wrong or tha man or boy who did that was a criminal??

 

[Montalban]

For the benefit of Islam_mulia and others like him, I'll repeat this comparison.
But first I must re-state too that this is not a requirement of arguing against Islam. One discussing Islam does not need to defend other religious ideologies at the same time.
Let's also just pretend for a moment that there is silence from Christian sources on the issue of young brides as Islam_mulia suggests (he only suggest this, proof is not something a Moslem has to provide).
We have in Islam a 'prophet' an example of all time on moral behaviour who married a nine year old girl. Because of this example it is still 'okay' in Islam to marry someone so young; as evidenced by the Moslem advice sites I've cited (which Islam_mulia won't deal with).
Compare this to Christianity. Is there an example of behaviour here for us to follow? Well according to Islam_mulia there's silence on the issue. So where's our example? This is not to say that in Western countries they did not marry young. Thirteen is a 'normal' age at the time of Jesus according to R L Fox in Pagans and Christians. But as Islam_mulia argues there's nothing but silence on this matter. So as time progresses are we still doing so? No. It's not a 'religious' matter for Christians. It is for Moslems. It's 'sanctified' by their god and is still allowed today.
And as noted Moslem nations, influenced as they are by western Christian values move the age of consent up. However some do not. These Moslem nations, valuing their 'example' for all time allow a continuation of very old men marrying children... and even they know it's not about her being a 'woman' because they don't give her adult rights at the same time.

Although in Islam they don’t HAVE to marry someone that young, they’re allowed to still do so. There’s no example of Christians (according to Islam_mulia) condoning child marriages. The only evidence I know of doesn’t point to Christians allowing children to be married, anyway. Younger, certainly than by today’s standards… I have less anxiety about a 15 year old male marrying a 14 year old female… but the Islamic example is of a guy almost 50 marrying a 9 year old.

Islam_mulia states that the marriage wasn’t just about procreation. But then why consummate that marriage?

Now I’ve addressed this a second time for Islam_mulia’s benefit. Even though, as noted, it’s not an onus for me to prove the Christian way of thinking on this issue. I have no great problems with discussing Christianity. Unfortunately I’m discussing something with someone who doesn’t hold to the same values regarding proof as I do.

 

[Montalban]

what do you mean when a 10 years girl do sex by her well doesn't responsible??? how come?? or you mean that she was forced???? in western ?? iam telling you in western countries girls do that wellingly and they become pregnantthey are thousands cases not even hundreds and i don't know how many did this without being pregnant i think it will be a huge number
and i will ask you this if you have a 10 years girl and she did sex you would tell her that she was wrong or tha man or boy who did that was a criminal??

*sigh* I'm amazed you'd even ask this!
A 10 year old doesn't have the same mental faculties as an adult. She can't consent as an adult might.

 

[um hamza]

*sigh* I'm amazed you'd even ask this!
A 10 year old doesn't have the same mental faculties as an adult. She can't consent as an adult might.

so you don't blame a 10 year old girl to do that you mean it's ok?? she can do but she is still young so what let the girl have fun is that what you mean ?? she can do sex but hey she has n't the same mental faculties??
you put me in a mess , again i ask what will you do if your daughter had sex while she is 10 years old?? would you call the one who did that with her a criminal ?? answer me

 

[Montalban]

so you don't blame a 10 year old girl to do that you mean it's ok?? she can do but she is still young so what let the girl have fun is that what you mean ?? she can do sex but hey she has n't the same mental faculties??

you put me in a mess , again i ask what will you do if your daughter had sex while she is 10 years old?? would you call the one who did that with her a criminal ?? answer me

I've already answered that I don't consider her as responsible as an adult. What part of that don't you understand?

 

[elwill]

Elwill, here is what I see is the point that you are missing. Once Allah allowed Mohammad to do something, it became an example of righteousness from an Islamic point of view.

if you want to know somthing from an islamic point of view , so you ask them about that , not to make your own conclusions then convince yourself that we have the conclusions itself
it's right that we believe that our prophet(pbuh) is typical examples for us to follow

from islamic point of view
we consider our prophet the perfect example for us as the rightious husband , we focus in how he was kind with them , how was he deal with them , how was his life with them
we not focuse on , how old were his wifes , or how old was he when he married , or if they were white or black , older or smaller , this is not the issues which we spend our time to think about

This allows for such a practice to be followed if a Muslim wishes to do so. The key word is "wishes". That means if Muslims agree that marrying a female under the age of 10 is immoral today, it would also have been immoral when it happened as well.

no it isn't immoral (from the relegious point of view)
your laws not standard to determine what is immoral and what isn't , your laws allows homosexuality to be legal (think about it ) your laws are not always good

 

[Montalban]

if you want to know somthing from an islamic point of view , so you ask them about that , not to make your own conclusions then convince yourself that we have the conclusions itself

Wow!
And you go on! Not only do you ignore evidence already put before you on this thread your 'point of view' only confirms that.

Once again you simply don't have any point!

 

[elwill]

For anyone else interested there's an article on meaningless words in the Koran...
Words that have no meaning
such as this
Sura 112:2
Allahu alssamadu
Or,
Allah as-Samad.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/samad.htm

finally i understood
you think that this site islamic one , beacuse of the name ?
no it isn't islmic site , it's christian site which raised just for attcking the islam

 

[Montalban]

finally i understood
you think that this site islamic one , beacuse of the name ?
no it isn't islmic site , it's christian site which raised just for attcking the islam

*yawn*
Don't you get tired of inventing argument? Where did I say that THIS site was Islamic? Show me the post. I've never met with someone who seems so determined to invent something about another person's posts

 

[Montalban]

What is it with elwill's posts?

When I cite Islamic evidence he ignores it. I cited evidence from the UN (hardly an anti-Islamic site). Then he demands I repost it. I do, and he ignores it. What was the point in asking me to trawl back through all my posts to find where I had originally cited it?

He sits back until I post something from a non-Islamic site then jumps in and re-writes my posts to pretend that I'm saying a non-Islamic site is an Islamic one.

I challenge him to show where I made such a claim.

He seems determined to do a rewrite every single post.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by elwill

if you want to know somthing from an islamic point of view , so you ask them about that , not to make your own conclusions then convince yourself that we have the conclusions itself

Elwill, you have already given me your beliefs from an Islamic POV, but that doesn't make your POV correct in terms of God. My conclusions are based upon what I see--not what you want me to see. I have very good reasons to conclude as I do. If you think that my reasons are unwarranted, then you should look outside of your religion and try to see what I and others do. As long as you insist that you see correctly (ony an Islamic POV is correct) , you will not be able to understand the postion that I hold. Moreover, you will not see why my POV makes sense too.

it's right that we believe that our prophet(pbuh) is typical examples for us to follow

Then what do you do with his immoral actions? Do you ignore them and only look at the good ones? Maybe you don't have the ability to discern immorality unless it is defined by your prophet's actions. In that case, you would be limiting God's morality to your prophet's actions and life.

from islamic point of view
we consider our prophet the perfect example for us as the rightious husband , we focus in how he was kind with them , how was he deal with them , how was his life with them

I guess that I should ask this question: How do you define perfect example? When Mohammad ordered people who wrote unpleasant poetry against hm, was that righteous of him to have them murdered? Is that a perfect example? Are there any actions that Mohammad did that you would call unrighteous? The answers to these questions are very important to my understanding of your POV and how you judge morality.

we not focuse on , how old were his wifes , or how old was he when he married , or if they were white or black , older or smaller , this is not the issues which we spend our time to think about

Is this a selctive approach? Why not address his negatives as well. In that way, you can be seen as a more fair and unbiased person. It is unreasonalbe to believe that your prophet did no wrong and don't have any examples that should not be practiced as Muslim. I think you and many other Muslims are so heavily indoctrinated that you can't discern truth from error, IMO. You have probably heard all of these good things about your prophet that you have not yet taken the time to honestly evualuate what you have been taught and heard. Is that a fair assessement?

no it isn't immoral (from the relegious point of view)

If that is true, then Muslims should have no need to legislate marriages between 6 year olds and much older men in today's societies. Put your money where your mouth is. I don't think that you understand that Allah did not understand that moral relative positions are not what makes perfection in God's eye.

your laws not standard to determine what is immoral and what isn't ,

Whose laws are you talking about? Christian laws? Those are covered by the commandments of Christ: 1) Love your God with all of your heart, and 2) Love your neighbor as your self. These two encompass the whole law. We are not to follow human examples for our morality. This is not the case for you as a Muslim.

your laws allows homosexuality to be legal (think about it ) your laws are not always good

You must be talking about governmental laws. In a more democratic society, Christians recognize that they cannot make nonChristians conform to their moral standards. We have to allow for others to believe and practice their own philosophies and religions as a given right of their personal expression. We cannot legislate their moral standards just because we have different beliefs. A certain amout of tolerance must be given to those who don't believe as we do. How would you feel if nonIslamic societies forced Muslims to follow their beliefs and not let Muslims to practice Islam freely? You would cry foul if you were not given the right to practice freely. Likewise, you, as a Muslim, must all equality to nonMuslims. Even homosexuals have human rights to life and liberty. You are in no position to judge them just because they are homosexual. Leave that to God. If they repent before they die, then they are just as saved as you would be according to your Islamic standard.

 

[Islam_mulia]

You kept demanding that I show you where the Koran legislates that a Moslem can marry a 9 year old. I said it was an example and it's permitted. Even though I pointed that this was not my argument. You then kept asking where it says Moslems are legislated to marry certain types, and you exampled a widow

Is the above really why I responded by saying that you LIED?
My response was on what you wrote in Post #331 where you put words into my mouth by saying:

Islam_M stated that there was no 'example' of Muhammed ofr Moslems. Then changed his mind to say that there was.

Once again, I have never stated that and see my reponse at Post #334.

Then you modified the 'example' of his marriages to "The focus on his marriage is therefore not on his liking for younger women, but his example for Muslims to choose a wife to foster relationship between families and clans, a wife that has a good religious background and hence can help guide his children to be good Muslims, etc."

MODIFIED? What other lies do you want to put here?

I can only assume that you refused to accept my response above on the 'example' for Muhammad's (pbuh) marriages and conveniently put it as 'MODIFIED'.

I then asked you about whether he consummated that marriage.

If you believe in the hadith then Yes, I do believe Muhammad (pbuh) married Aisha at 9. Do I really need to answer something which is understood?

You ignored that - even by post #290 you were simply repeating yourself that his marriage was some kind of platonic (my term) marriage. Instead in post #220* you go back to asking me if it's legislated. You're simply up to your old tricks again. In post #251 you still insist I'm arguing about Moslems being legislated to marry someone that young.

See above. In fact, your question was not if he consummated that marraige, but whether Muslims are commended (in bold) to marry a child (See Post #282). Of course I replied it was not commended, encouraged or even a law to marry a child.

I'm still waiting for you also to defend your 'argument from silence' claims and to acknowledge the title of John of Damascus' work. In post #269 you say it's irrelevant how Chrisitans thought of Islam when in fact you made that very argument as proof that marrying a child was okay. That was a laugh! And you still tried to get some mileage out of my statement about John of Damascus not knowing how to react to Isalm. You either want to argue about this, or not. You've not made up your mind.

I used John of Damascus to show that early Christian writers wrote critics against Islam but never mention the marriage of Muhammad (pbuh) to Aisha as something sinful or a crime. It is only Irrelevant when you tried to divert the issue by saying that early Christians thought of Islam as a Christian heresy.

I tried to point out that John of Damascus did not think it was a crime to marry a 9 year old because the Christian and Jewish community in the 7th century did not find it odd or sinful, and I was expecting you to say I was wrong.... which you did not (because you cannot) and creatively put in the christisn heresy thingy which is irrelevant and hoping I could change topic.

 

[Islam_mulia]

You don't know this.

You keep saying that it is so. You've not evidenced it. You just keep repeating it. You've also not said how an alleged silence is approval. But you just keep pushing on. ROFL

For those who are following this: I asked Montalban to show where Jesus (whom Christians believe was a god), Paul (whom they believe as an Apostle) or the christian fathers (whom some take heed of their writings and teachings) ever mentioned anything against child marriage. Montalban could not show anything because they is nothing. Jesus did not object to a man marrying younger than 9 when some Jews actually practised that during Jesus time.

To circumvent his weak position, he asked me to provide evidence that Jesus, Paul and others did not write anything against child marriages. If they dont say or write anything against what Montalban claimed as a 'crime' where do you get the writings? You cant get water from squeezing a rock? ROFL

It's a very easy claim to make because on can't say "Show me that none of them said anything against it - if in fact they never said anything against it".

And, it's not up to me to prove you wrong. It's your claim. Onus is on you.

Gosh! If I claim the bible did not say anything about a man on the moon, then I shouldl say you cant find from Genesis to Revelation of a man on the moon.... or even what the early chrsitian fathers said (forgot your non scriptura idea). You expect me to show you something that was not written or said?

... great reasononing by a person who claimed that early christian writers did not know how to respond to Islam... but he can.

 

[Montalban]

Once again, I have never stated that and see my reponse at Post #334.

MODIFIED? What other lies do you want to put here?

There's not enough time to list all of your errors.

I can only assume that you refused to accept my response above on the 'example' for Muhammad's marriages and conveniently put it as 'MODIFIED'.

See above. In fact, your question was not if he consummated that marraige, but whether Muslims are commended (in bold) to marry a child (See Post #282). Of course I replied it was not commended, encouraged or even a law to marry a child.

You are commended to marry a child. This is the very heart of the 'example' thing you say you're on about here. All his wives are archetypes; examples of the types of 'women' you're allowed to marry... which you ignore, and simply want to say that the 'example' is only how he acted towards those wives... and here you're caught out again by suggesting that it wasn't about sex - so I asked you why'd he then 'consummate' that marriage. And you ignore that.

I stated you can, by Muhammed's example. You argued that you're not required 'by law' to marry a child. I said that I never made that argument. You simply get caught out again by yet again making that straw-man.

You are commended on the types of women you're allowed to marry. No where have I said you must marry a nine year old. It is allowed. Maybe English is not your first language.

I used John of Damascus to show that early Christian writers wrote critics against Islam but never mention the marriage of Muhammad (pbuh) to Aisha as something sinful or a crime. It is only Irrelevant when you tried to divert the issue by saying that early Christians thought of Islam as a Christian heresy.

And you continue this mistake. You cite his 'silence' as a condoning of the act. I contextualised why he might have been 'silent' - though this still is only YOUR allegation that he was - that Christians of his time didn't know how to respond to your religion. YOU scoffed at that notion. Citing the fact he thought of you as heretics exactly refutes your 'scoff'.

And you suddenly wanted to say that I'm taking it off-topic! ROFL

I tried to point out that John of Damascus did not think it was a crime to marry a 9 year old because the Christian and Jewish community in the 7th century did not find it odd or sinful, and I was expecting you to say I was wrong.... which you did not (because you cannot) and creatively put in the christisn heresy thingy which is irrelevant and hoping I could change topic.

You are the one who claimed he is silent. You've not proven this at all.

So we're back to you repeating straw-mans.

You are recommended certain types of wives. You argue that you're not because it's not LEGISLATED that you (must) marry a young wife. You also add (must). Neither of which is the same. I even exampled Muhammed's life in another way when I gave a Q&A about him urinating. It's not legislated that you do so squatting, but its deemed commendable if you do.

It's the same for foods. There's certain foods that Muhammad avoided in his life. There's no legal requirement to avoid all those foods (some are forbidden, but not all the ones he rejected). A 'devot' Moslem might eat only what Muhammad ate, avoiding some foods as he did, even though there's no legal requirement to do so. It's commendable.
“Verily, you (Muslims) have in the messenger of Allah (Muhammad) a beautiful model for every one who hopes in Allah and the Last Day and who thinks often of Allah” (33:21)

I would never make the argument you keep insisting that I'm making because Muhammed had nine (or eleven) wives and you're only allowed up to four... therefore it would be impossible to say "You must marry exactly as Muhammed did" (in reference to number of wives). But you can marry an older woman, because he did.

Here's their ruling to this fact...
"There is nothing wrong with a man marrying someone who is two years older than him or more, if she is religiously committed and of good character. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married Khadeejah bint Khuwaylid (may Allaah be pleased with her) and she was older than him. "
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/87621

They tie it in directly to the example of Muhammed.

You seem to confuse a recommendation with a directive. I think that's where your problem lies. I think you also don't understand much about your own prophet because he's an 'example' for you, but not just in the limited way you and elwill are trying for

 

[um hamza]

I've already answered that I don't consider her as responsible as an adult. What part of that don't you understand?[/qu
you don't consider a 10 year old girl an adult so she can do anything she wants including sex relationship?? is that what you mean??? answer with yes or no don't turn around the question

 

[Montalban]

you don't consider a 10 year old girl an adult so she can do anything she wants including sex relationship?? is that what you mean??? answer with yes or no don't turn around the question

A ten year old is a child. She can't consent to sex. I've stated this over and over and over

 

[Montalban]

Islam_mulia's got two points he has to prove, since it's his idea

a) there is silence from the Church on the matter
and
b) that this silence, if it exists, equates to condoning child marriage

 

[Montalban]

For those who are following this: I asked Montalban to show where Jesus (whom Christians believe was a god), Paul (whom they believe as an Apostle) or the christian fathers (whom some take heed of their writings and teachings) ever mentioned anything against child marriage. Montalban could not show anything because they is nothing.

You mean to say 'there is nothing'.

This is a continual ploy of Islamic writers here.

You say there is no comment on it. And you demand I prove you wrong. You've not proved you RIGHT!

Jesus did not object to a man marrying younger than 9 when some Jews actually practised that during Jesus time.

That's right! Just repeat your own unsupported allegation.

To circumvent his weak position, he asked me to provide evidence that Jesus, Paul and others did not write anything against child marriages. If they dont say or write anything against what Montalban claimed as a 'crime' where do you get the writings? You cant get water from squeezing a rock?

It's YOUR position. Even a difference in English can't account for that mistake of yours.

Gosh! If I claim the bible did not say anything about a man on the moon, then I shouldl say you cant find from Genesis to Revelation of a man on the moon.... or even what the early chrsitian fathers said (forgot your non scriptura idea). You expect me to show you something that was not written or said?

The problems with proving your position is not my problem, but yours!

... great reasononing by a person who claimed that early christian writers did not know how to respond to Islam... but he can.

And you're still repeating this mistake. When I retort to it with evidence from John of Damascus' own writing, you claim I'm going off-topic.

So in summary. You make a claim you expect me to prove. You decry the difficulty of proving your point! I even, though the onus of proof is on you pointed you to a book that might lend you an answer. It's called Pagans and Chrisitans by R L Fox*

You suggest that Christians did know how to respond to Islam and when I evidence it, you say I'm going off-topic.

None of that can be explained by language, but by comprehension.

It doesn't work like this

Islam_mulia makes a point. Islam_mulia doesn't prove it.
Islam_mulia demands people prove the opposite.
Islam_mulia decries the difficulty of proving his point.
Islam_mulia doesn't show what an alleged 'silence' has to do with condoning an act, anyway.


*For anyone interested it talks of how the early Christian community put itself at odds with 'accepted practice' by defending children who were being sexualised at pagan temples; it was 'normal' for Roman society to exploit children sexually at pagan festivals.

But as noted, Islam_mulia has made a point he has to prove.

 

[um hamza]

A ten year old is a child. She can't consent to sex. I've stated this over and over and over

yes you did over and over but i didn't ask you what do you think about a 10 year girl having sex ?? no i didn't ask that
my first question was if you have a 10 year girl who did sex wellingly do you consider the one whom she did that with as a criminal?? you didn't answer directly with yes or no you turned the question and you said she is n't an adult although i didn't ask about the girl condition but the person she did that with.
is it hard for you to say yes i do think he''s acriminal or no it's normal sex is n't a crime i our country
the secnd question was if it's ok for a 10 year girl o do sex?? you didn't answer with yes or no you turned around again and said you didn't consder her an adult
is it hard for you to say agirl can do what she wants its free country or no it's harmful for a girl to do that in this early age
but no sir you didn't answer directly you are afraid to admit that girls in your countries already do sex in age 10 to 14 and also getting pregnant
when you argue my fellow muslims you made us understand that you have never heard that a 10 girl got married before
and that's true you never heared about marriage in this age but iam sure you heared about young girls who had sex relatioship before being 15
so you don't agree that Muhamed peace be upon him married Aisha when she was 10
but now adays if you found a 10 year girl having sex you would say she is a child and shecan't consent to sex??
but what would you say if she got pregnant?? i think you will say it's her mistake she should use condoms
By now we had reached a point at which over 90,000 girls aged 14-15 (around 1 in 6) were going to clinics and GPs for some kind of birth control treatment, and yet the pregnancy and abortion rates were higher than at any time in the previous twenty years. Moreover, an ever increasing proportion were resorting to 'emergency' post-coital birth control. The numbers seeking the morning- after Pill at the clinics rose from 2,200 in 1989 to 22,700 by 1997. Among 16-19 year olds the numbers rose from around 12,00 to almost 83,000, and it is estimated that an even greater number seek treatment from their GPs.
at last if Muhamed peace be upon him didn't marry Aisha at 9 and married her when she was 15 what another point you are going to argue?? or you will turn to be a muslim?

 

[Montalban]

If that is true, then Muslims should have no need to legislate marriages between 6 year olds and much older men in today's societies. Put your money where your mouth is. I don't think that you understand that Allah did not understand that moral relative positions are not what makes perfection in God's eye.

Exactly! Moslems would face a decision.

Do they go with the modern, western secular law on the age of marriage? Or, do they choose the 'god sanctified' allowance of child marriages?

Anyone, Christian, Jew, Moslem who believes in their God would follow that God!