what do you know about Islam?

[Meshavrischika]

So you can't understand it till you're already in it?

no, not all the nuances. sorry.

 

[Montalban]

no, not all the nuances. sorry.

And if you've left Islam you loose these nuances?

 

[Montalban]

it isn't circular logic it's Allah's words which is very true and you your self proved that buy your replies
all i want is to stop attacking and start thinking logicaly about Islam

It's circular when you say it's Allah's word, based on the revelation that it's Allah's word. How do you know? Allah's word says it is.

 

[Montalban]

of course it is, it's called "stereotypes".

We're both hung up on truisms and stating the obvious

are we both blonde?

I used to be

 

[Montalban]

yes it was wrong practice , and it prohibited by allah in quran

So al-Lah didn't have to keep it just because it was normal practice then, did he!

You're argument was
"Young marriage was kept because it was normal practice"

You need to think then about what argument you wish to make

i don't know what is the type of reform they refer to

Lots of things, even adding minarets to your mosque

excuse me ! where is that

The UN is in New York
The evidence in post #105
Here's the link to that evidence
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu6/2/fs23.htm

thank you
so what is problem or what is relation between this kind of growing and pregnancy?

*sigh* I just stated that
a) it's harmful
b) there's no evidence to say that just because she's physically capable of it, she's 'ready' for it psychologically, emotionally, etc. UNLESS you can show a commensurate maturity at the time she just begins physical maturation. You've yet to do this. In point of fact you've also avoided showing that Aisha was capable at that time to! Sure, you showed evidence another individual was, but that's not what I asked. It's like I ask "Show me proof you went to university and you cite me someone else who went".

is it your personal openion , or thier are scientic studies ?

As noted as well, even Islamic nations don't allow her adult rights at that time.

why she must to be completely matured before marriage ?

I think that answers itself. If you're not 'mature' you're not ready.

you havn't actual reasons for your view

You just don't read them. You avoid answering my question then you ask me to repeat information I've already given.

what is the problems related to mentally/emotionally of young girls?

Show me that they're mature.

and please dont speak about the knowledge of allah about human development specefically , it will be big problem for you if i argued with about it .

The problem is your god didn't seem to know about the harm it would cause.

well , we talking here about God and relegions
so don't mix legal syestems of humans in our relegious discussion

Odd statement coming from a Moslem!

as long as cultures changes , islam never change

*sigh* now you're pegging religion to cultural specifics again.

may it will be very strange in these days for girls 9yo to get married , but it's still not a sin

Your statement about sin is circular.

may be it will be illegal even in muslims countries , but it's still not a sin from prespective of our God

Same

we are not Gods nor prophits to decide instead of allah that it's a sin

Again circular logic.

 

[katautumn]

To watch people DEFEND a child molestor, rapist, murderer... amazes me.

It amazes me also. Good thing that isn't what is happening in this thread.

 

[Zstar]

God also helped Elisha summon a bear to eat some young boys who were mocking his bald head.

If a "prophet" of God not care for the children how can one expect them to illuminate the way for others? Must the prophet of Islam become "inspired" under the blanket with a young girl?


Why would a prophet not cause the bears mouth to be stopped so the bear would NOT eat the children - or become inspired about something more universal to all than a young wife? Something does not make sense there.

 

[Druweid]

Greetings!

Y'know, I really didn't want to get into this whole discussion, there are POV's that are solidly cast and are not about to change on the turn of a heel, and yet so many still persist. I doubt if I can add or detract from anything that has already been said (not that I can tell, some conversations going in circles and all), but maybe some level of civility can be established. What's the worst that can happen? (he asked as the viewers winced, cringed, and gnashed their teeth.)

All right now, where to begin. The Prophet (pbuh) married a six-year-old. Sure, why not, arranged marriages were oh so common, and unto itself was not harmful to those involved. Also, as was a common custom, I believe this marriage may have been motivated by politics or status, no?

Next, The Prophet (pbuh) consummated his marriage when his bride was around 9 years old. Was it wrong? No simple answer is possible. For the girl, yes, it was wrong, there can be no doubt, it caused her harm. But at that time, even she wouldn't have known or understood it was wrong or harmful. She likely spent her entire life being told by everyone around her it was normal. Aaaaand everyone around her believed it was normal. The understanding that it was harmful wouldn't have come about until over a thousand years later.

Does this justify calling Mohammad (pbuh) a pedophile? I believe it's inconclusive. A pedophile, by definition, is one who feels and/or exhibits excessive love for a child. What constitutes "excessive" can be subjective, but is generally understood to be any expression of love that would be unsuitable or unhealthy for a child. In the case of Mohammad (pbuh), the question becomes whether or not he consummated his marriage out of lust, excessive love, or to fulfill his marital obligation. No matter how I look it, there seems to be alot subjective ground to cover.

And lastly (for now), how does this detract from his status as a prophet and/or detract from the religion of Islam? Yes, as obvious as it may have been in previous posts, I'm revisiting it to explore the subject my own way (and cleverly get out of having to re-read every single post in two or three different threads).

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

 

[Futuwwa]

Druweid, you might want to check out the following:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299: Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."

Does that sound like the words of a victim of sexual abuse? I think not.

 

[Montalban]

Greetings!

Y'know, I really didn't want to get into this whole discussion, there are POV's that are solidly cast and are not about to change on the turn of a heel, and yet so many still persist. I doubt if I can add or detract from anything that has already been said (not that I can tell, some conversations going in circles and all), but maybe some level of civility can be established. What's the worst that can happen? (he asked as the viewers winced, cringed, and gnashed their teeth.)

All right now, where to begin. The Prophet (pbuh) married a six-year-old. Sure, why not, arranged marriages were oh so common, and unto itself was not harmful to those involved. Also, as was a common custom, I believe this marriage may have been motivated by politics or status, no?

Next, The Prophet (pbuh) consummated his marriage when his bride was around 9 years old. Was it wrong? No simple answer is possible. For the girl, yes, it was wrong, there can be no doubt, it caused her harm. But at that time, even she wouldn't have known or understood it was wrong or harmful. She likely spent her entire life being told by everyone around her it was normal. Aaaaand everyone around her believed it was normal. The understanding that it was harmful wouldn't have come about until over a thousand years later.

Does this justify calling Mohammad (pbuh) a pedophile? I believe it's inconclusive. A pedophile, by definition, is one who feels and/or exhibits excessive love for a child. What constitutes "excessive" can be subjective, but is generally understood to be any expression of love that would be unsuitable or unhealthy for a child. In the case of Mohammad (pbuh), the question becomes whether or not he consummated his marriage out of lust, excessive love, or to fulfill his marital obligation. No matter how I look it, there seems to be alot subjective ground to cover.

And lastly (for now), how does this detract from his status as a prophet and/or detract from the religion of Islam? Yes, as obvious as it may have been in previous posts, I'm revisiting it to explore the subject my own way (and cleverly get out of having to re-read every single post in two or three different threads).

Respectfully,
-- Druweid

Also note the important fact that Moslems are still allowed to marry girls.

I've cited several Moslem advice sites on this thread that attest to this.

This is because of the 'internal logic' in Islam.

Moslems respect Muhammed and see him as an example FOR ALL TIME - not just for the people of the desert of 7th Century Arabia. His wives are 'archetypes' of the sort of women Moslems are permitted to marry. For instance he married an older woman, a Chrisitan, and a Jew. A Moslem is thus permitted to marry a Christian because of this example.

This does not mean "All moslems will marry Chrisitan women" but it is allowed.

This is a clear sign Islam is not of God because their god did not forsee the harm this would cause.

 

[Montalban]

Druweid, you might want to check out the following:

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 299: Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Aswad:
'Aisha said: "Whenever Allah's Apostle wanted to fondle anyone of us during her periods (menses), he used to order her to put on an Izar and start fondling her." 'Aisha added, "None of you could control his sexual desires as the Prophet could."

Does that sound like the words of a victim of sexual abuse? I think not.

In our way of understanding - a child can't properly consent. Even if she stayed with him, it's still abuse. It's abuse because of the nature of power in the relationship where a late 40's man is with a girl aged 9.

If you want evidence, one just has to look at what sort of person she grew up to be.

 

[Montalban]

It amazes me also. Good thing that isn't what is happening in this thread.

If only you'd address the evidence. Day 4 and still avoiding!

 

[Futuwwa]

In our way of understanding - a child can't properly consent.

Legal bullpoo.

If you want evidence, one just has to look at what sort of person she grew up to be.

You mean, like, one of the most prominent and productive members of the early Islamic society?

 

[français]

I thought you were athiest. Have you finally gone and said the Shahada? I am sure Muhammed will be proud to have your witness.

No, I am not a Muslim. Though, I should be.. It is a great religion

Have a look at the verses on this site...
http://www.answering-islam.org/Terrorism/peace-loving.html

Ah, the same handful of verses that people quote over and over.

Here, I propose we do this..
Why don't you post one verse at a time, and I will show tafsir/other explanations for it.

Or even two verses at a time. Bring them here and we will discuss.

You want to talk about violent? Why don't you look at those verses in the Bible that praise smashing children's heads into rocks? Why don't you look at those verses that say to cut a girls hand off if she tries to grab a mans penis! Why don't you look at the verses that speak about the curse of Canon, the violent takeover of the land of Canaan, the story of Midianite children becoming sex slaves(30,000 of them), people being forced into slavery, verses promoting hitting children, etc?

You want to talk about violent, then we will talk about violent, form your Bible.

Great! And Oskar Schindler who was a Nazi-party member saves 1,000 Jews. Both examples negate the millions killed by others of their group!

And he slayed the pagans. Where are the Arab 'Goths' of today? All those here of Wiccan background too, where are the Arab Wiccans?

Lol, are you joking me? Arab Wiccans? Wicca is a new religion dude.. Started by Gardener within the last century. et your facts straight.

Most of these pagans converted to Islam. And THANK GOODNESS. Because these people were burying children alive, and taking fruit as idols, etc. they were becoming alcoholics, and invading privacy, etc. It was about time a man came in and made situations better for all.

Really? So it was merely 'confirming' a normative practice? Where's it say it should only be of that time? What verses abrogate it?

It doesn't, of course not. My question, is what is bad about his marriage to her when he did nothing but good for her?

What Chrisitan or Jew new of Islam 'at the time' Islam hadn't spread beyond Arabia?

Many did. A lot of Muslims migrated to Abyssinia and so many Christians were exposed to Islam.

Likewise, Arabia had a huge Jewish population.

Anyone who 'questioned' Muhammed too vigourously was killed as going against the prophet of god.

I would like to go back to Umar again.. Umar became an excellent Muslim, a leader of Muslims. He was a strong, stern man.

Before being a Muslim though, he spent 5 years of his life harassing Muhammad. People were intimidated by Umar. So Umar would follow Muhammad around, so people would not listen to Muhammad, because if they did, Umar would kill them.(That is how much he hated Muhammad.)

But did Muhammad hurt Umar? No. And later, Umar became a Muslim.

Great. And I'm sure the Austrian dude who kept his daughter locked up regularly fed her and looked after her too.

How dare you compare Aisha to locking up someone's child. She was treated nothing like that.

And here comes the attempt at tu quoque

tu quoque is if I said something like "well, your religion believes this so they are just as bad."
But that is not what I am saying. I am saying that your religious book is violent, and Islam's is not. I am saying that your religion has pedophilia, not Islam. So it is no tu quoque.

One thing I find astonishing though, is that you never answer objections to the Bible. Never! Why is that?

What I find sad is your defending of a man who sexually assaulted a child. Why all of you put your hand up to rush to defend this is very sad.

He did not assault her.

What I am defending, is a man who was such a pious great man who started a pious great religion. A man who changed his drunken culture for the good. A many who gave people the rights to privacy. The rights to inheritance.

The Arabians before his time were doing terrible things. They were burying children alive, and making statues out of dates, they would enter a house without notice, they would drink and drink and drink, and the list goes on and on. and what did Muhammad do? He made this culture come from being a TERRIBLE culture to becoming a great culture. Shortly after Islam, the middle east went in a golden age. Life just thrived for them. While this was happening, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches were appointing people to wheelbarrow throughout the city picking up dead bodies, due to the terrible conditions.

 

[français]

To watch people DEFEND a child molestor, rapist, murderer... amazes me.

Mohamaad was 52 years old.. the child he raped was 9.
or are you telling me the little girl lusted for Mohammad?
or are you telling me its ok for a 52 year old man to rape a child?

He did not rape her!

Are you going to tell me that it was ok long ago and normal?
We havent changed.. people are people!
Lets say YOU were born way back then... you have this SIX year old baby girl. Some man in his late 40s comes to your door and says He is taking your baby girl to marry!! You say NO just like her father did!!

1. He probably married her to further relations with Abu Bakr, her dad. It was a norm at that time to do such. Unlike marriage now days that is seen for the sole purpose of love, marriage back then was also done if it would help benefit the family or what not.

2. Show me where he said no.

Later, after who knows what or how long Mohammad convices her father to let him have her.. and this 52 year old, cold hearted, mentally twisted murderer, rapes this 9 year old girl.

Show me where he raped her.

In YOUR VERY OWN BOOK from YOUR Prophet Mohamaad that Mohamaad himself had written.. says Mohamaad (supposed messenger from GOD) is sitting in a tub with this little child and he is molesting her... WHILE SHE IS MENSTRATING!!!

LOL! I challenge you to show me one place in the Qu'raan where it says this.
you know so little about Islam! This is no where to be found in the Qu'ran!

THIS BABY IS BLEEDING IN THE TUB WITH HIM IN IT.......
MOHAMAAD IS THE DEVIL! ISLAM THE WORD OF PURE EVIL.

And if you can stand behind this blasphemy to GOD.. You do not know GOD.. SEEK CHRIST!! Christ is the GATE. We are loving and kind.. we are forgiving and trustworthy.. we know that Jesus loves YOU and are here to help you find Him.

You think your religion is peaceful?

Start up a thread, and you and I can debate if your religion is peaceful or not.

 

[Montalban]

Legal bullpoo.

As noted, there's heaps of Islamic nations that don't allow a girl under 17 to drive or vote, yet they're happy to see her married off already

You mean, like, one of the most prominent and productive members of the early Islamic society?

No. One who orchestrated revolts.

 

[Futuwwa]

As noted, there's heaps of Islamic nations that don't allow a girl under 17 to drive or vote, yet they're happy to see her married off already

And this is relevant how?

No. One who orchestrated revolts.

Oh noes!!! And this proves what? Were Benjamin Franklin and Maximilien de Robespierre also sexually abused while they were kids, perhaps?

 

[Montalban]

No, I am not a Muslim. Though, I should be.. It is a great religion

You've already submitted. That's all they require

Ah, the same handful of verses that people quote over and over.

I'd like to see the Moslem response to you calling their verses shameful

Here, I propose we do this..
Why don't you post one verse at a time, and I will show tafsir/other explanations for it.

Are you an expert? I've already cited the verses. I've already cited Islamic opinion on the issue.

Or even two verses at a time. Bring them here and we will discuss.

As noted, they're already there. If you wanted to discuss them, you'd have done so already

You want to talk about violent? Why don't you look at those verses in the Bible that praise smashing children's heads into rocks?

Which has nothing to do with this topic

Lol, are you joking me? Arab Wiccans? Wicca is a new religion dude.. Started by Gardener within the last century. et your facts straight.

There's nothing new about Wiccans, but it still doesn't demonstrate your attempt at a point - in fact given the time frame there still should be at least a few Arab Wiccans. Where are the Arab pagans?

Most of these pagans converted to Islam. And THANK GOODNESS. Because these people were burying children alive, and taking fruit as idols, etc. they were becoming alcoholics, and invading privacy, etc. It was about time a man came in and made situations better for all.

Funny that you would be aghast at this, but support Islamic atrocities. Showing your true colours.

But they were forced to convert. Convenient for you to not even look at that.

It doesn't, of course not. My question, is what is bad about his marriage to her when he did nothing but good for her?

Having sex with a child is not good for her.

Many did. A lot of Muslims migrated to Abyssinia and so many Christians were exposed to Islam.

Not at the time of Muhammed, which was the strange time-frame you established for your challenge

Likewise, Arabia had a huge Jewish population.

Since you mention this, why not look at what happened to one tribe of Arab Jews, the Banu Quraish?

Before being a Muslim though, he spent 5 years of his life harassing Muhammad. People were intimidated by Umar. So Umar would follow Muhammad around, so people would not listen to Muhammad, because if they did, Umar would kill them.(That is how much he hated Muhammad.)

But did Muhammad hurt Umar? No. And later, Umar became a Muslim.

Several people Muhammed couldn't touch because they were too powerful

How dare you compare Aisha to locking up someone's child. She was treated nothing like that.

She was sexually used. Are you saying she had ample opportunity to leave if she should have wished; that there was a larger support network to help a single, formerly married woman?

tu quoque is if I said something like "well, your religion believes this so they are just as bad."

That's not the argument I made. Tu quoque is 'you too'.
If I said "All Americans mistreated their native population" and you said "Australians did this too!" that would be a tu quoque argument if you were using it as a means of defending America, or attacking Australia for being hypocritcal

But that is not what I am saying. I am saying that your religious book is violent, and Islam's is not. I am saying that your religion has pedophilia, not Islam. So it is no tu quoque.

That is the essence of it, if you are using it as a way of saying "You can't criticise Islam, you're just as bad" - which is in fact what you're doing.

One thing I find astonishing though, is that you never answer objections to the Bible. Never! Why is that?

That's simply false. But it's consistant an accusation with your Islamic apology here. Besides that, what have they to do with a discussion on what we know about Islam?

He did not assault her.

The act of 'consummating' the marriage when she was nine is an assault

What I am defending, is a man who was such a pious great man who started a pious great religion. A man who changed his drunken culture for the good. A many who gave people the rights to privacy. The rights to inheritance.

As noted, you're an apologist for Islam. You make false 'challenges' such as posting Hadith, when I've already done that - twice!

The Arabians before his time were doing terrible things. They were burying children alive, and making statues out of dates, they would enter a house without notice, they would drink and drink and drink, and the list goes on and on. and what did Muhammad do?

Why are you against them making statues out of dates? What possible objection could you have, if you claim to be a non-Moslem?

While this was happening, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches were appointing people to wheelbarrow throughout the city picking up dead bodies, due to the terrible conditions.

You're now talking about the plague???

 

[Montalban]

And this is relevant how?

I've already explained this.

If she's really an adult, she'd be given adult rights. But conveniently you declare her an adult only so as to allow the puposes of marrying, and having sex with her.

Oh noes!!! And this proves what?

It certainly shows you need to read more Islamic history. And it shows your glossing over her life.

Were Benjamin Franklin and Maximilien de Robespierre also sexually abused while they were kids, perhaps?

Who knows? As you say, what does that prove bringing them into it?

 

[Montalban]

You think your religion is peaceful?

Start up a thread, and you and I can debate if your religion is peaceful or not.

Another of your flawed challenges. You could easily have done so; and you tacitly recognise that you're off topic