Heron, thanks for stopping by.
That is true of many. Remember that most ministers enter college at 18, when most people don't know what they're doing with their lives.
Yep. It could have been me. I'd don't know what I'd do at this point. It would indeed be scary.
Denominational ordinations require quite a bit of theology and ancient languages, but nondenominational churches sometimes hire pastors who are dynamic leaders within their ranks.
Yeah, but there's a weird point. I don't really know which is worse.
Just kinda making it up on your own, not really being able to clearly differentiate between what the "Holy Spirit is saying" vs. one's own experiences and imaginations. Or putting an almost blind faith in a told, told, and re-told, copied, copied, and re-copied text of what some ancient thought El/YHWH/Word of God/word of God/donkey/angel/messenger/Christ thought was a-telling him.
Anyhow, I do indeed know what you mean. My non-denominational pastor went to the same Christian university I did and took the same required religion courses I took. Oddly though that now represents a fraction of what I know about Biblical scholarship.
It is a pastor's responsibility to keep studying,
I believe that would be your opinion. I, right now thinking through it, can't think of any NT scriptural references that encourage all that much scholarship among the clergy. Paul says to follow what
he taught and to ignore what others (perhaps equally well-intentioned) taught. And that
definitely one should only just one wife, but whether or not actual study is required of the clergy or lay teachers, I'd be interested in a few canonical or even non-canonical verses from the early writings of the Christian tradition. Perhaps with the end being so "near," it just wasn't a priority.
but most have no time to themselves once they enter the fishbowl.
"Fishbowl" is indeed an interesting word. "Pedestal" is another one that comes to mind.
However...
If anything, it is a profession that very loudly and "certainly" proclaims TRUTH. Just that, oddly, it is truth without evidence.
No wonder everybody is a bit skeptical and watches the clergy's every move. The maxim goes, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
I had a pastor once who took calls from parishioners 24 hours a day. Often these calls were not emergencies, but people who wanted ongoing counseling. The minister said he didn't mind, but he hardly slept. I know people who had lived in his house, and they said they couldn't sleep there either!
What seems a bit odd about this is that I would think that most of the "needs" would be coming from people who really aren't that skilled in taking care of themselves.
Given people really only learn through experience and example, I wonder how this pastor was
modeling a healthy ability to take care of oneself and one's family.
But the blank stare could also come because he was approached with a question that challenged his entire faith and career and lifestyle at once. His entire identity was wrapped up in that faith. So ideally he should have a response for you, but you need to allow for his own internal response... a few minutes of shock absorption. He's a person.
I understand this point completely and have tried to be very sensitive to this possible issue in this whole process.
According to a 1982 survey in
Christ for the Nations magazine...
- 50% of pastors don't believe Jesus was born of a virgin
- 80% of pastors don't believe Jesus was the son of God
- 80% of pastors don't believe in the inspiration of the Bible
- 36% of pastors don't believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus
http://www.cumorah.com/fruits.html
In many cases, it appears that the clergy believes less than the general population.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/resurrec8.htm
No wonder they don't have answers. It appears many of them have the same questions I do. And this is why I've tried to be very, very sensitive about this all-too-touchy subject in "coming out" to my Christian leaders.
Anyhow, per these survey results, if many Christian priests, pastors, and ministers
honestly registered on this site, perhaps most would even have to designate themselves as seeker or Atheist or something other than "Nicene Creed-affirming Christian."
I wonder how much of this is due to actual study. Maybe many went into the clergy in naivete, with just a love for Jesus and being called.
And then the discovered something. And were stuck with knowledge, yet lacking sufficient other skills and/or
courage to actually do something about it.
Given these statistics, I wonder, how morally, they feel about all this. It makes me wonder.
This myth concept is a pop phenomenon now -- I'm not trying to demean what you have discovered, but so much media has poured out in a few years on the topic, that I don't think pastors are prepared to respond to it.
I don't feel demeaned at all.
I think much of what I have read has been accessible to scholars through out much of the Enlightenment. Perhaps in early years it might have just been an Erasmus or a Thomas Jefferson, but today, incredible scholarly information - about cosmology, about genetics and evolutionary biology, about human history, about linguistics, about Biblical scholarship is available for the non-scholar. Folks like us.
Perhaps the likes of
The Divinci Code (clearly a piece of modern imaginations overlaying and stitching together pieces of ancient fact, legend, and myth) helped many of the scholarly authors to be commercially viable and go "mainstream." (What you refer to as "pop culture.") But make no mistake, unlike the Sanjaya-esque aspects of pop culture, there's now a lot of
accessible, good scholarship available.
In Ehrman's Introduction to
Lost Scriptures, the author writes, "The major collections that contain all these early Christian writings--and even more--are written for scholars and embody scholarly concern. The purpose of the present collection [of non-canonical early Christian writings in the book] is to provide the
non-scholar with easy access to these ancient Christian documents that were sometimes regarded as sacred authorities for Christian faith an practice."
Perhaps like never before, there is a mainstream mass market for true Biblical scholarship for people
seriously seeking.
Yes, certain books have always been there, but not on the front shelves at Border's.
Yes, most people are.
Indeed, and in many regards I wonder if the church is now embroilled in a war on three fronts.
1. Other religions. Perhaps beginning with the less-than-to-be-proud-of Crusades, a "war on terror" continues and there is the Islamic front. Huntington's
Clash of Civilizations comes to mind. As does Thomas Friedman. As does the simplistic, almost racist, polemics uttered in the context of Christian in-group Christian-eeze speak.
2. The carnal. Many are engaged in numerous selfish, self-destructive lifestyle choices. Perhaps this is the church's bread-and-butter. Perhaps less important in what the belief is placed, forgiveness, acceptance, purpose, and promise are powerful messages.
3.
Rationalism and reason.
This seems to be the under-addressed front. Dawkins, Harris, and Dennet championing the charge. Perhaps even Ehrman too in a much more subtle and subdued way.
Check out the best selling list at Amazon in religion and spirituality.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestseller..._rd_t=2101&pf_rd_p=221591101&pf_rd_i=51546011
Check out how many of the best sellers concern rationalism, reason, and evidence-driven skepticism.
When I pulled it up, just now, looking at the top 25...
The God Delusion, #7
Religious Literacy, #15
Letters to a Christian Nation, #21
Indeed, it is at the front shelf at Border's. And at Amazon. And at Barnes & Noble.
People want to
know.
I want to
know.
Based upon survey results, it looks like perhaps even half the clergy wants to
know. However, the point is, they are expected to know. It's kinda what their proclaiming. And what their getting paid for.
I personally wonder where all of this is going.
I really want to read
The New Faces of Christianity: Believing the Bible in the Global South. I saw it in a bookstore and skimmed through it.
As we move towards the year 2025, Africa and Latin America should be in competition for the title of the continent with the largest number of Christians. But in the long run, as we move towards 2050, Africa wins; Christianity becomes predominantly a religion of Africa and the African Diaspora in North and South America and the Caribbean.
In fact, if you want to project the countries in the world that will have the largest numbers of Christians by 2050, here's one projection. At the head of the list would still be the United States, followed, in no particular order, by Brazil, Mexico, Nigeria, the Congo, Ethiopia, the Philippines, and China. Let me give you a list of the countries that were not included in that list: Britain, France, Spain, Italy. Is anyone here old enough to remember something called "Western Christianity?"
I wonder, how many of our grandkids will be Christians. And how many will be something else.
The Old Testament contains more military logs, community laws, and shocking stories than the New.
Watch the wording -- there are times that we assume God is saying something, when it's the writer or leader saying things and making conclusions. (The most obvious examples in Job.)
I very much appreciate your point.
If you saw my very heavily marked up Bible, you would see heavy pressure, dark underlining of many of the "God said," or "God commanded" phrases in the OT. I have diligently tried to figure out what God said in the OT, what God said in the OT that applied just for Israelites, as well as what God said which was supposed to apply for "all generations."
I also have tried to figure out which commands, which verses, which paragraphs are then supposed to apply. I wonder if I can figure this out without an understanding of ancient Hebrew. But given that Christians over time and across the globe and denominations and that have applied the commands of the OT in so
many different ways, perhaps it is pointless. In fact this goes all the way back to the early church and the Ebionites, all the way back to Peter and to Paul.
That said, I also have to apply a degree of skepticism as to what "God said."
Truthfully and historically, what I have is...
- An English translation of what God is said to have said
- From a known Bible publisher
- From a known committee of Bible translators
- From a known set of manuscripts saying slightly different things
- From an unknown succession of copyists
- From a church council designating some works as authoritative and some as not
- From a set of various church fathers making recommendations about what should and shouldn't be considered as part of the Bible
- From even more unknown generations of professional and amateur copyists
- From unknown generations of oral tradition
- From a claimed author or prophet
- Who then is possibly claiming
what God said to Him
Reminds me of something that happened at church the weekend before last.
My pastor attributed something as said by Jesus that is (per my Bible) actually uttered by Paul and not attributed by Paul to Jesus. A simple mistake of misattribution.
What did I do?
Nothing.
Should I have.
I don't know. It seemed like an innocent enough mistake. And I didn't want to be a jerk and nitpick. Especially concerning what I am going through and all of the recoginizing-the-pastor-is-a-person that you Heron point out.
It all just makes me wonder.
Such as been the nature of my struggle.
Also notice that major events can have 100 years in between each other. So when it appears that God is all about justice, realize that He sometimes put up with things for 90 years before the abrasive warning.
Wow! It's not like that gives me any warm fuzzies.
Maybe it is my modern, Western individualism. Maybe it is the influence of the Greek. But I have difficulty in understanding a lot of fairness and justice outside many aspects of individuality.
I was reading I Kings last week. Aside being troubled by God feeling comfortable about inhabiting a temple built by more than 100,000 forced laborers - slaves. Aside from Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines, I noticed the part where Solomon's children, a generation later, get the punishment for Solomon's bad choices. That just didn't make me feel good. "Nevertheless, for the sake of David your father, I will not do it during your lifetime, I will tear it out of the hand of your son."
But yet on the more positive side, I noticed in Jeremiah reading this morning, "If you can find but one person who deals honestly and seeks the truth, I will forgive this city." There it is God forgiving many based upon the honesty and truth seeking of one. Of one HUMAN. And all along I was taught that God need to kill/sacrifice Himself in order to forgive the sins of many.
Oh, well. What can one do.
It's a struggle.
We can blame God, but each person faces choices to stop the evil they see.
If we have a friend who deals drugs, do we ignore it or let their hobby turn into a serious business that damages many lives. If we see someone at the office taking credit for a project, or using the company server for their own online ventures, do we allow their selfishness to deplete people of power and resources.
God gave man dominion over the earth -- the responsibility to manage and care for it.
It's great that you highlighted the questions. Sometimes people just skim over them and choose to block them out of mind, then have nagging loose threads that are never dealt with.
I just don't see how folks can "just skim over" this stuff. Such gullibility could cause anyone to believe any mumbo-jumbo of any cult or religion with such little testing of the spirits or guarding of the heart.
Heron, thanks for the conversation. And for genuine concern for my struggle.
Oddly though that now represents a fraction of what I know about Biblical scholarship.
Um... yes. Heving had many friends who are pastors, I see both sides.
