What do you do when you don't believe any more?

[IndyEllis]

OK, so I'm 40 years old. I was a devout Christian (short-term missionary, lay leader, ...) for half a lifetime.

Then, in pursuit of truth and in hope of confirmation of my faith, I went out in this intense reading spree over the last several years.

I read everything I could find time for on cosmology, physics, abiogenesis, natural history, evolutionary biology, linguistics, history, economics, Biblical scholarship, and apologetics. Probably three books a months for four years.

Last autumn, I reached a tipping point. Where prior I had faith that could move mountains, it just couldn't move this mountain of evidence.

This isn't some lightly taken whim. And it's not based upon some sort of I-got-my-feelings-hurt experience with some group of Christians or a church.

It has been rationally and intellectually driven. It has been honest.

After my investigation of the evidence (which shamefully I had never done prior in my life), I am no longer convinced in the divine inspiration of the 66 book Protestant canon. I am no longer convinced in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth.

I am no longer willing to believe something without supporting evidence.

So I guess my question is, what do you do with stuff you don't have evidence for? How can you believe something as truth when it just as easily (perhaps even more so per Occam's Razor) could have been just made up a really long time again and incrementally added to and adjusted to suit the times at hand?

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling… ~ Philippians 2:12

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. ~ 2 Timothy 4:3

Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding, ~ Proverbs 3:13

Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, [a] get understanding. ~ Proverbs 4:7

Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. ~ Proverbs 4:23

Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. ~ Hebrews 13:9a

"How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? ~ Proverbs 1:22

A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions. ~ Proverbs 18:2

"Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, ~ Exodus 23:2a

 

[OldChurchGuy]

OK, so I'm 40 years old. I was a devout Christian (short-term missionary, lay leader, ...) for half a lifetime.

Then, in pursuit of truth and in hope of confirmation of my faith, I went out in this intense reading spree over the last several years.

I read everything I could find time for on cosmology, physics, abiogenesis, natural history, evolutionary biology, linguistics, history, economics, Biblical scholarship, and apologetics. Probably three books a months for four years.

Last autumn I reached a tipping point. Where prior I had faith that could move mountains, it just couldn't move this mountain of evidence.

This isn't some lightly taken whim. And it's not based upon some sort of I-got-my-feelings hurt experience with some church, some group of Christians, or a church.

It has been rationally and intellectually driven. It has been honest.

After my investigation of the evidence (which shamefully I had never done prior), I am no longer convinced in the divine inspiration of the 66 canon Protestant New Testament. I am no longer convinced in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth.

I no longer am willing to believe something without supporting evidence.

So I guess my question is, what do you do with stuff you don't have evidence for? How can you believe something as truth when it just as easily (perhaps even moreso per Occam's Razor) have been just made up a really long time again and incrementally added to and adjusted to suit the times at hand?

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling… ~ Philippians 2:12

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. ~ 2 Timothy 4:3

Blessed is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gains understanding, ~ Proverbs 3:13

Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, [a] get understanding. ~ Proverbs 4:7

Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. ~ Proverbs 4:23

Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. ~ Hebrews 13:9a

"How long will you simple ones [a] love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? ~ Proverbs 1:22

A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions. ~ Proverbs 18:2

"Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong. When you give testimony in a lawsuit, do not pervert justice by siding with the crowd, ~ Exodus 23:2a

At the risk of irritating you rather than being of help, I would like to ask some clarification questions, please.

Is the question "what do you do with stuff you don't have evidence for?" or "what do you do with stuff you don't have proof for? I get the impression you may be looking for proof as you have plenty of evidence for and against your beliefs.

The statement "I am no longer convinced in the divine inspiration of the 66 canon Protestant New Testament."
confuses me. Does this mean that the Protestant New Testament is no divinely inspired compared to the Catholic or Greek Bibles? Or does this mean that all Christian Bibles are not divinely inspired? What definition is being applied to the phrase "divinely inspired"?

The statement "I am no longer convinced in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth." also confuses me (I confuse easliy as you can tell ). What is meant by the word "divinity"?

Sorry for the questions, but for a discussion of this depth to be meaningful, a clear understanding of terms is important to be certain we are all understanding each other as clearly as possible.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[IndyEllis]

At the risk of irritating you rather than being of help, I would like to ask some clarification questions, please.

OCG, thanks for the interest.

Is the question "what do you do with stuff you don't have evidence for?" or "what do you do with stuff you don't have proof for? I get the impression you may be looking for proof as you have plenty of evidence for and against your beliefs.

Actually "proof" is not what I'm looking for. Outside of mathematics one can't really prove anything. For instance, there I can't really "prove" the theory of gravity.

"Evidence" is a much better word. There's plenty of evidence for gravity.

What do I do with stuff I do have evidence for? Generally take heed. Like take care not to trip and fall in the case of gravity.

What do I do with stuff I don't have evidence for? Maybe disregard. But also keep a skeptical open eye to. I don't have evidence that there are fairies in the garden. While I do seriously doubt it, I suppose that it always might be a possibility (albeit with a very low probability from what I've observed).

I suppose this is all generally in line with how all of us learn.

The statement "I am no longer convinced in the divine inspiration of the 66 canon Protestant New Testament."
confuses me. Does this mean that the Protestant New Testament is no divinely inspired compared to the Catholic or Greek Bibles?

Rather than "divinely inspired," perhaps I simply should have said "attributable to anything other than human imagination."

That kind of fills it in for the different canons too.

Or does this mean that all Christian Bibles are not divinely inspired?

Err, uhh. There's the third alternative category of answer.

1. All Christian Bibles are inspired.
2. All Christian Bibles are not inspired.

Albeit those beg which Bibles (Jewish, Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, LDS, ...) and whether or not they are equally and/or unequally inspired and what "inspired" exactly means, I'll skip those issues for the moment.

Beyond those two, the third category of answers would be...

3. I do not have sufficient evidence to answer the question.

With that said, the preponderance of evidence seems to indicate each of the various canons can be fully attributed to human authorship and imagination.

What definition is being applied to the phrase "divinely inspired"?

Yeah, I should have just said it was just "made up."

Anyhow, the word "definitions" is a bit indicative.

Generally "definitions" are tied to discussions about concepts, about things that exist principally in our human minds.

On the other hand, "descriptions" are generally tied to things that really exist.

Given I'm approaching materialism, I'll return it to you and ask how do you "describe"divine inspiration?

The statement "I am no longer convinced in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth." also confuses me (I confuse easliy as you can tell ). What is meant by the word "divinity"?

Err, uhh, wasn't this what the Council of Nicea was about? Or are we back to the Arian controversy?

Sorry for the questions, but for a discussion of this depth to be meaningful, a clear understanding of terms is important to be certain we are all understanding each other as clearly as possible.

No worries. Hope these responses can help you answer my OP.

Thanks.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

OCG, thanks for the interest.



Actually proof is not what I'm looking for. Outside of mathematics one can't really prove anything. For instance, there I can't really "prove" the theory of gravity.

Evidence is a much better word. There's plenty of evidence for gravity.

What do I do with stuff I do have evidence for? Generally take heed. Like take care not to trip and fall.

What do I do with stuff I don't have evidence for? Maybe disregard but also keep a skeptical open eye to. I don't have evidence that there are fairies in the garden. While I do seriously doubt, I suppose that always is a possibility (albeit with a very low probability from what I've observed).

I suppose this is all generally in line with how all of us learn.



Rather than "divinely inspired," perhaps I simply should have said attributable to anything other than human imagination.

That kind of fills it in for the different canons too.



Err, uhh. There's the third alternative category of answer.

1. All Christian Bibles are inspired.
2. All Christian Bibles are not inspired.

Albeit those beg which Bibles (Jewish, Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental, LDS, ...) and whether or not they are equally and unequally inspired and what "inspired" exactly means, I'll skipp those issues for the moment.

The third category of answers would be.

3. I do not have sufficient evidence to answer the question.

That said, the preponderance of evidence indicates each can be fully attributed to human authorship and imagination.

Interesting. Let's presume that the manuscripts which make up the Bible (Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, etc.) can be attributed to human authorship and imagination. At the risk of sounding like someone ignoring the obvious, how would that affect your faith?

Yeah, I should have just said it was all "made up."

Anyhow, "definitions" are a bit indicative.

Generally "definitions" are tied to discussions about concepts, things that exist principally in our human minds.

On the other hand, "descriptions" are generally tied to things that really exist.

Given I'm the one approaching absolute materialism, I'll return it to you and ask how do you describe divine inspiration?

I would describe divine inspiration as it relates to the Bible as "God breathed". That is to say that God influenced the writer in their choice of words whether the writer knew it or not. How do you describe divine inspiration?

Err, uhh, wasn't this what the Council of Nicaea was about? Or are we back to the Arian controversy?

I don't know. How did you understand the divinity of Jesus the Christ prior to this research? How do you understand the divinity of Jesus the Christ now?

No worries. Hope these responses can help you answer my OP.

Thanks.

Aside from the replies about in green font, please know that I refuse to tell you what you should believe. That is insulting to you and accomplishes nothing.

Thank you for your patience. The situation you describe reminds me of Jacob's wrestling match with God in Genesis. Jacob was renamed "Israel" which to my understanding means "One who wrestles with God". Perhaps each of us is an "Israel" as we attempt to explain our faith based on new evidence / information.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

 

[IndyEllis]

OCG, thanks for the interest.

Interesting. Let's presume that the manuscripts which make up the Bible (Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthodox, etc.) can be attributed to human authorship and imagination. At the risk of sounding like someone ignoring the obvious, how would that affect your faith?

Now, about as much as a story about Zeus, Thor, Luke Skywalker or Neo.

I would describe divine inspiration as it relates to the Bible as "God breathed". That is to say that God influenced the writer in their choice of words whether the writer knew it or not. How do you describe divine inspiration?

Now, imaginary.

I don't know. How did you understand the divinity of Jesus the Christ prior to this research? How do you understand the divinity of Jesus the Christ now?

Before, self delusionally. Now, mythically.

Aside from the replies about in green font, please know that I refuse to tell you what you should believe.

Evidence would be compelling.

That is insulting to you and accomplishes nothing.

Evidence would accomplish much.

Thank you for your patience. The situation you describe reminds me of Jacob's wrestling match with God in Genesis. Jacob was renamed "Israel" which to my understanding means "One who wrestles with God". Perhaps each of us is an "Israel" as we attempt to explain our faith based on new evidence / information.

I believe you're referring to the following from Genesis 32.

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two maidservants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."

27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"

"Jacob," he answered.

28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."

29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."

But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

Ignoring my disgust for the moment with the polygamy, I am reminded of the following scriptures.

But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." ~ Genesis 33:20

No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. ~ John 1:18

No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. ~ John 6:46

who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. ~ 1 Timothy 6:16

No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. ~ 1 John 4:12

As always,

OldChurchGuy

You're welcome.

Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding. ~ Proverbs 4:7

 

[Eila]

After my investigation of the evidence (which shamefully I had never done prior), I am no longer convinced in the divine inspiration of the 66 canon Protestant New Testament. I am no longer convinced in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth.

I no longer am willing to believe something without supporting evidence.

What would you consider supporting evidence? How do you view miracles?

 

[IndyEllis]

What would you consider supporting evidence? How do you view miracles?

An excellent question.

Here's a more formal way of looking at it...

1. Miracles, by definition, are events which violate genuine laws of nature.
2. If a generalization is violated by an event, then it cannot be a generalization, here a genuine law of nature.
3. Thus, it is impossible for a genuine law of nature to be violated by any event. (from 2)
4. Hence, it is impossible for any event to be a miracle. (from 1 and 3)

From a more familiar perspective...

Some phenomenon happens.

Either you understand (and have a naturalistic explanation to) its causation or you don't. If there's such an explanation, it is based upon evidence.

If you don't have an explanation it is then either because:

a) either we as 21st century humans or you individually just don't understand the causation, or
b) something magical or otherwise supernatural just occured breaking the laws of nature.

Now here's the tricky part. There is no way, based upon evidence, to assess the difference between a and b.

Without evidence, you're left with just hope.

Sure you might hope to attribute something fortunate or advantageous to God, Thor, Mary, crystals, saints, luck or whatever. (And something unfortunate or disadvantageous to Satan, a black cat, Lucifer, that particularly nasty neighbor, or whatever.)

But really, if you think about it for a moment, there's no way to honestly know the what's attributable to your and our own ignorance and imagination and what's attributable to something supernatural. Think about it. There's no way other than what you hope. (Which really wouldn't be that different from what a Hindu might, in ignorance and hope, attribute to an imaginary Ganesh.)

"Miracles" are evidence of human's limited sensory capabilities, limited knowledge and thinking capabilities, yet strong need for finding reason and purpose in nearly everything. That's all.

 

[Eila]

Either you understand (and have a naturalistic explanation to) its causation or you don't. If there's such an explanation, it is based upon evidence.

If you don't have an explanation it is then either because:

a) either we as 21st century humans or you individually just don't understand the causation, or
b) something magical or otherwise supernatural just occured breaking the laws of nature.

Now here's the tricky part. There no way, based upon evidence, to assess the difference between a and b.

How would you consider these situations?

A person prays for another person's healing and actually feels the bones move beneath their hand while they are praying. There was no bone movement prior to the praying.

A person who was blind sees for the first time when he was prayed for.

A child who was never able to walk starts walking when the mother brought her child to be prayed for.

These situations I am referring to here are ones where something immediate and drastic happened when a person was prayed for and not simply events that happened that were unexplainable to medical science.

 

[IndyEllis]

How would you consider these situations?

A person prays for another person's healing and actually feels the bones move beneath their hand while they are praying. There was no bone movement prior to the praying.

A person who was blind sees for the first time when he was prayed for.

A child who was never able to walk starts walking when the mother brought her child to be prayed for.

These situations I am referring to here are ones where something immediate and drastic happened when a person was prayed for and not simply events that happened that were unexplainable to medical science.

Is your argument based upon that it is "immediate and drastic?" (Which should be testable per the scientific method. And I also wonder if thus all "immediate and drastic" changes would be like attributable to supernatural cause.)

Or that it is "unexplainable to medical science?" (Which appears to be an appeal to an "Argument from Ignorance.")

Furthermore, where is your evidence it would have been attributable to El vs. Yahweh vs. Allah vs. Jesus vs. Ganesh vs. crystals, etc. (Or Satan or Baal for that matter. The Bible indicates they have some power. Afterall, Daniel was only 10x better than the other magicians in the kingdom.)

Or maybe did something fortunate and unexplainable happen with coincidental timing and your background predisposed you to believe that it was attributable to that which you hoped.

 

[Eila]

Is your argument based upon that it is "immediate and drastic?" (Which should be testable per the scientific method. And I also wonder if thus all "immediate and drastic" changes would be like attributable to supernatural cause.)

Or that it is "unexplainable to medical science?" (Which appears to be an appeal to an Argument from Ignorance.)

Not exactly. It is based on the change in a person's body happening at the exact moment someone prays. The change would be visable, measurable, and evident to those around. The person's body was unchanged until the moment someone prayed.

Furthermore, where is your evidence it would have been attributable to El vs. Yahweh vs. Allah vs. Jesus vs. Ganesh vs. crystals, etc.

If a change happened the moment someone prayed I would consider who the person prayed to. I would consider all reported events where a change happened and see who all those people prayed to.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

I no longer am willing to believe something without supporting evidence.

GOOD !
God never wanted that of His people !!

Sadly people representing him today tell us that if you have proof / evidence it's not faith.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Joh:10:37: If I do not the works (the miracles) of my Father, believe me not.

Ac:1:3: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Heb:13:8: Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

God never asked anyone to believe him without first giving at least a sign, and instruction.

One possible exception is John the Baptist who "did no miracle", but people saw that he spoke the truth, without fear or favour, and the prophecies spoke of him.

Now with becoming a Christian by receiving the Spirit of God, Jesus says:-

John 14:17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
:20: At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

How will you "know" ?

Acts 2:4: And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The proof comes out of your own mouth !!
(then ministers God's peace that passes understanding to your heart - Jude 20-21, Romans 8v26)

Indy, have you received this ??

 

[Mary_Magdalene]

OK, so I'm 40 years old. I was a devout Christian (short-term missionary, lay leader, ...) for half a lifetime.

Then, in pursuit of truth and in hope of confirmation of my faith, I went out in this intense reading spree over the last several years.

I read everything I could find time for on cosmology, physics, abiogenesis, natural history, evolutionary biology, linguistics, history, economics, Biblical scholarship, and apologetics. Probably three books a months for four years.

so you went to the "world" looking for confirmation of Him?...the world is the enemy of God and will do all he can to decieve and confuse one of His sheep.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

---------------------------------

Matthew 13:
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

-----------------------------------------
2 Corinthians 11:3

But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.


Maybe try to remember how you were first saved? remember the Holy Spirit is inside of you. Pray for God to reveal Himself to you. Get away from the trash of this world. Remember when you felt His presence before? Get into the Word of God again and feel it again. He loves you! As simple as all this sounds, He loves you and wants you to return to Him.

The subjects you said you read about are not evidence-it is the lies of the enemy used to deceive God's children. I am not saying you have to bury your head in the sand, but to take anything this world or the enemy has to offer as evidence or truth is a mistake. Please, do not be deceived.

i will be praying for you my brother.

 

[salida]

IndyEllis---

No offense but you are greatly mistaken if you don't think there is evidence. There is more evidence and objective facts about the Bible than any book in the world. I'm a christian spiritually and intellectually second.

I would start reading books like Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (an athiest but now a christian). A Case for Christ by Lee Strobel (an athiest and now a christian). Evidence Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell. All this information would stand up in a court of law.

The Bible has hundreds of detailed prophesies that have come true and more to be fulfilled. (This alone all by itself would prove the Bible is Gods Word). The chance of just 40 prophesies coming true in detail is a billion to one! But there is overwhelming evidence on all this and the prophesies is the tip of the iceburg.

You said you have read. What have you read? Have you read any of these books among many? To ignore these facts would be like ignoring the sun rising in the morning. Thus, its true and its going to happen to matter what are opinion is.

If your looking for something that would convince you in particular like God appearing right in front of your face; well God isn't our butler and His Creation alone is evidence. We will be accountable just because of His creation alone.

 

[salida]

IndyEllis--

Have you asked the Holy Spirit to come into your life? Believe it or not - some christians arn't taught this at their church. Knowing this is very important because you can't live a christian life without it. One needs the power of God. How can He make you christ like without His Spirit?

 

[OldChurchGuy]

In the first post was written:

Then, in pursuit of truth and in hope of confirmation of my faith, I went out in this intense reading spree over the last several years.​

I read everything I could find time for on cosmology, physics, abiogenesis, natural history, evolutionary biology, linguistics, history, economics, Biblical scholarship, and apologetics. Probably three books a months for four years.​

Last autumn I reached a tipping point. Where prior I had faith that could move mountains, it just couldn't move this mountain of evidence.​

It wouldn't be the first time I totally misunderstood where a person is coming from, but it is my impression there was an "all or nothing" approach to this confirmation of faith. Put another way, when the evidence did not confirm what was believed to be a true and correct faith, then all faith was abandoned. If this impression is accurate, why is there no room for a middle ground to the effect, "this I believe but the door is always open to revelation"? If this impression is inaccurate, I appreciate your continuing patience in advance by correcting my mistaken impression.



In an earlier reply about Bibles is the statement:

That said, the preponderance of evidence indicates each can be fully attributed to human authorship and imagination.​

That is true as far as it goes. Conversely, is it possible the imagination of the Bible authors was inspired by God?

In an earlier reply, mention was made twice about how evidence would accomplish much. I truly wish I possessed that irrefutable evidence but I don't think anyone does. Religion by it's very nature is subjective and therefore works on faith.
Do I believe that God exists? Yes.
Can I prove it in a scientific way that can be consistently measured and evaluated? No
Do I need to prove God's existance in a scientific way? For me, the answer is no.

I fear I have crossed the line from exchanging/clarifying to preaching so will quit for now. If I am way off base in my impressions/understandings, please clarify and chalk it up to a well meaning old man who can be rather dense at times.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

 

[IndyEllis]

Not exactly. It is based on the change in a person's body happening at the exact moment someone prays. The change would be visable, measurable, and evident to those around. The person's body was unchanged until the moment someone prayed.

Visible, measurable, and evident. That's sounding quite naturalistic and scientific. Almost as if it would stand up to a double blind trial.

Or even need to pass FDA approval.

Are there any side effects to such a healing?

Amazing.

If a change happened the moment someone prayed I would consider who the person prayed to. I would consider all reported events where a change happened and see who all those people prayed to.

And many religions benefit from coincidence. By your very same logic, Ganesh sure does a lot of healing in India. As do the saints in many Catholic countries.

 

[IndyEllis]

IndyEllis---

No offense but you are greatly mistaken if you don't think there is evidence. There is more evidence and objective facts about the Bible than any book in the world. I'm a christian spiritually and intellectually second.

And OCG says there ISN'T evidence. Which is it guys? Ask 10 Christians and get 10 answers. Here it's two and two.

I would start reading books like Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (an athiest but now a christian). A Case for Christ by Lee Strobel (an athiest and now a christian). Evidence Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell. All this information would stand up in a court of law.

I've read each of those. I've read several of McDowell's books as I've read several of Strobel's. In fact, I read them at several points over the years. Before deconversion. During. And here recently after.

A key area I found them all sadly weak in was the justification of the canonization process. Seems ALL to human to me.

The Bible has hundreds of detailed prophesies that have come true and more to be fulfilled. (This alone all by itself would prove the Bible is Gods Word).

The chance of just 40 prophesies coming true in detail is a billion to one! But there is overwhelming evidence on all this and the prophesies is the tip of the iceburg.

I'd be interested in one.

You said you have read. What have you read? Have you read any of these books among many? To ignore these facts would be like ignoring the sun rising in the morning. Thus, its true and its going to happen to matter what are opinion is.

Yes, I've read them. And as for the sun rising, I'm an endurance runner and I often get to witness five sunrises a week. Deconversion has only increased my sense of wonder in the world.

If your looking for something that would convince you in particular like God appearing right in front of your face; well God isn't our butler and His Creation alone is evidence. We will be accountable just because of His creation alone.

He doesn't need to "appear in front of my face" and I absolutely do not want to trivialize the possible creator of a magnificent universe into a "butler."

But internal consistency within the bible, biblical scientific assertions aligning with the real world, evidence of the revealed word being the one and only true revealed word (vs. Book of Morman, ...), would be very good evidence.

 

[IndyEllis]

IndyEllis---

No offense but you are greatly mistaken if you don't think there is evidence. There is more evidence and objective facts about the Bible than any book in the world.

Are you referring to the cosmological?

Are you referring to physics?

Are you referring to biology?

Are you referring to history?

Are you referring to archeology?

Are you referring to linguistic history?

Pick any.

Do your homework.

I'm a christian spiritually and intellectually second.

And that's why you're predisposed to conclusions.

This begs the question as to by what means you came to your specific faith and doctrine. How do you know it is the true doctrine?

Or is it no different from a Mormon or a Muslim and being a beliver first and rational second?

I reject Mormonism, Hinduism, Islam, ... for probably many of the same reasons you do. They just seem absurd and made up.

I would start reading books like Examine the Evidence by Muncaster (an athiest but now a christian). A Case for Christ by Lee Strobel (an athiest and now a christian). Evidence Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell. All this information would stand up in a court of law.

OK, give me a few citations that would "stand up in a court of law" that Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead.

That would be a great place to start within "all this information."

The Bible has hundreds of detailed prophesies that have come true and more to be fulfilled. (This alone all by itself would prove the Bible is Gods Word). The chance of just 40 prophesies coming true in detail is a billion to one! But there is overwhelming evidence on all this and the prophesies is the tip of the iceburg.

Pick a few out and let's discuss.

You said you have read. What have you read? Have you read any of these books among many? To ignore these facts would be like ignoring the sun rising in the morning. Thus, its true and its going to happen to matter what are opinion is.

You mentioned Strobel and McDowell. I've read them. I've also read C. S. Lewis. But then also Harris, Dawkins, Greene, and many, many others.

If your looking for something that would convince you in particular like God appearing right in front of your face; well God isn't our butler and His Creation alone is evidence. We will be accountable just because of His creation alone.

And exactly how does His Creation attest that Jesus Christ was more than a myth and literally was raised from the dead. And that in contrast, the Great White Spirit is just made up?

 

[IndyEllis]

Have you asked the Holy Spirit to come into your life? Believe it or not - some christians arn't taught this at their church. Knowing this is very important because you can't live a christian life without it. One needs the power of God. How can He make you christ like without His Spirit?

I see you're Word of Faith. There are many interpretations on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit that have been held, and are held by Christians around the world.

That said, it might be worth pointing out that I graduated from Oral Roberts University and have spoken in tongues as much as anybody.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

I wish you could all speak in tongues, but even more I wish you could all prophesy. ~ I Corinthians 14:5a

 

[IndyEllis]

It wouldn't be the first time I totally misunderstood where a person is coming from, but it is my impression there was an "all or nothing" approach to this confirmation of faith. Put another way, when the evidence did not confirm what was believed to be a true and correct faith, then all faith was abandoned.

OCG, I really appreciate you. I have some more informed insights here.

Anyhow, I have gone through multiple steps and stages with how literally I interpreted the Bible. From more literally, to more figuratively, to deism, to where I am today.

And I do expect the journey to continue.

As I learn more, I learn more. More facts, more and different conclusions.

Otherwise, do folks actually think they have their own theology all conclusively figured out years ago?

If this impression is accurate, why is there no room for a middle ground to the effect, "this I believe but the door is always open to revelation"? If this impression is inaccurate, I appreciate your continuing patience in advance by correcting my mistaken impression.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "middle ground," but I am absolutely open to more evidence, more personal experience.

I don't want blind faith. Some of the posts I've seen around here are of people who are so "sure" and "certain" of their beliefs, yet have really have minimal understanding of the doctrines and beliefs of other denominations or of other religions.

In an earlier reply about Bibles is the statement:

That said, the preponderance of evidence indicates each can be fully attributed to human authorship and imagination.​

That is true as far as it goes. Conversely, is it possible the imagination of the Bible authors was inspired by God?

Of course it's "possible." I suppose it's also possible that some golden plates magically appeared before Joseph Smith too.

Such an argument is not one of "solid rock" but one of "sinking sand."

One could be deceived by a false teacher or a false prophet into believing practically anything with that minimal "guarding of the heart," that minimal "testing of the spirits."

In an earlier reply, mention was made twice about how evidence would accomplish much. I truly wish I possessed that irrefutable evidence but I don't think anyone does. Religion by it's very nature is subjective and therefore works on faith.

And that's why it's all looking quite made up. Imaginary.

Do I believe that God exists? Yes.
Can I prove it in a scientific way that can be consistently measured and evaluated? No
Do I need to prove God's existance in a scientific way? For me, the answer is no.

I truly appreciate the intellectual honesty in this. And I respect that you do have faith in the midst of this.

That "court of law" stuff is just perplexing.

Anyhow, if someone can give me stand-up-in-a-court-of-law evidence that Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead...

Then I can honestly stand a good chance at believing again.

I fear I have crossed the line from exchanging/clarifying to preaching so will quit for now. If I am way off base in my impressions/understandings, please clarify and chalk it up to a well meaning old man who can be rather dense at times.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

OCG, you haven't crossed the line at all. And I don't take you as preaching.

What I have though lost respect for is people who assert things as truth when they really don't know them to be true. Regardless of whether it due to self deception or willful deception of one's fellow man, that's exactly the stuff false prophets do.

Without evidence, how else does one shoot down false doctrine and false religions?