What do you do when you don't believe any more?

[IndyEllis]

And Criada I truly understand where you are too.

I think you used a few key words I might have myself.

On one side is courage.

On the other side is comfort.

That it feels good is merely evidence that, well, it feels good.

 

[Mobiosity]

And Criada I truly understand where you are too.

I think you used a few key words I might have myself.

On one side is courage.

On the other side is comfort.

That it feels good is merely evidence that, well, it feels good.

That doesn't make it untrue.

 

[IndyEllis]

That doesn't make it untrue.

And by "it" would you be referring to...

- Catholic Christianity
- Protestant Christianity
- Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity
- Mormonism
- Jehovah's Witness
- Universalism
- Judaism
- Islam
- Hinduism
- Buddhism

...

One of those?

Some specific subset below such a high-level breakdown?

Some broader ecumenical set of multiple ones of these?

Doesn't make "it" untrue...

What kind of a defense of the faith is that? Whatever is good, true, just or whatever, I suppose we ought to think on those things, just that it would be good to know what those things are in order to do that, wouldn't it.

As sometimes I just can't figure out why killing a thousand fellow men by hand with a single jaw bone of a donkey is one of those things.

 

[Sri]

cheesy but doubt is a way of figuring out. There is a bad doubt and a good doubt, why are you afraid? Face your fear first. That is what you need to do. God can handle it, he can handle your anger, disappointment, and questions. Christians need to stop being stuffy and fake and just say it like it is. It is how we learn and grow. God never meant for us to be ignorant people who blindly medle our way behind. Sure we have those shot in the dark times they build us they are a time of growth, but sometimes we aren't even walking it out we are just all cliche'. God said he'd never leave us or forsake us, when we are unfaithful he is faithful. The only thing we can do is send our selves to hell, but questioning God about things and trying to make sense of our existence our purpose these promises. That is what God intended, why do us Christians percieve that as failure? That is just of the enemy. God wants us to really know him. He wants all men to come unto him. It is okay to ask the questions, kids deffinately aren't afraid to and didn't God say come like a child? And honest why is the jawbone thing important? If God thought it would be good then it must be. His thoughts are higher and who can fanthom him when it comes to things such as these? Really, we should be seeing the big picture and keeping our eyes on the prize, time is short too short to worry about donkey bones.

 

[IndyEllis]

Hi Sri. Thanks for your thoughts.

The Samson whacking a 1,000 skulls with a single jaw bone of a donkey isn't really all that interesting. Just that it seems utterly absurd, to think after the first couple dozen or so guys getting whacked upside the head, that the other guys didn't figure out something was up and either flee or over take him. Plus the sheer durability of that single bone to kill a thousand fellow men just doesn't seem all that credible. Not that this part isn't that interesting - just yet another bit of some likely combination of myth, legend, and hyperbole that doesn't really attest to any sense of inneracy to me.

What is though more interesting about it though is that somehow, Samson shows up again, once, in the Bible. Once in the book of Hebrews. In the Hall of Faith chapter.

Samson gets credited for faith and for righteousness by definers of the Christian faith, yet when I read the account of him in Judges, I don't seen anything other than paranoia, misogyny, tyranny, and brutality.

You say get to know him better. Yet how Samson "administered justice" or "gained what was promised" is completely beyond me. And if anyone wants to post, seriously, go back and read what is written in Judges, not some off-the-cuff recollection of a Disneyfied Sunday School coloring page. I mean what the Bible really says.

Now, Sri, what I found really interesting about your post was this:

He wants all men to come unto him.

All men. To come to him.

There are a few things that strike me as really weird about that one.

Estimates are something like that there have been 100 billion human beings that have ever existed. There are about 6.5 billion of them alive today.

Of these 6.5 billion, about 2 billion profess some sort of nominal and broadly-defined definition of Christianity. That includes many "sects" that many other Christians wouldn't count. Then there's the issue of "Real Christians" that many bring up from the pulpit. Narrow is the road, there will be those who say they know me, etc. Of these presently living 6.5 billion, at least 4.5 billion are destined for eternal torture. Maybe more. Maybe even 6 of the 6.5 billion if a lot of the soteriology of the more fundamental and less ecumenical branches of Christianity holds.

Then there's the problem of the 93.5 billion human beings who have already died.

I've never seen a good "estimate" of that one.

Tough to figure out really. Especially pre-JC, in times BC.

I mean, like, the OT, and even a lot of present day Jews, don't real have a strong notion of some sort of eternal afterlife.

I wonder about the Pre-Columbian Americans. Like how in the world do they all fit into "God's Plan?" Destined for hell. Maybe.

Maybe every last one of them.

Then there are the Asians too. A lot of the world's population is and long has been in China and India alone.

A responsible, good father, working his rice paddy in China in 35 AD dies. One can't help but wonder his fate.

Or his descendents in 1035 AD.

Maybe he gets some sort of extra-Biblical special exemption status that makes us all feel better about it.

But I guess his fate at least isn't as bad as an Amalakite baby.

Or Canaanite young girl.

At least not when Joshua was doing God's business.

(Weird, Enoch makes the cut for Hebrews 11 but Joshua doesn't.)

OK, so who knows about the stats overall.

Of the 100 billion or so humans that have ever lived. Maybe 90 billion or something get eternal torture. Maybe 99 billion.

And you say God wants all men to come to him.

One can't help but wonder. Is this the best plan an all-loving, omnipotent God can come up with?

But then again... Maybe, just maybe.

That never was really the plan.

At the core of NT theology and early Christianity is being different.

Being set apart.

Being in the world but not of the world.

Not being worldly.

Even the very word for church itself, ecclesia, is rooted in being the exception rather than the cultural norm.

Check out Matthew 10:22/Luke 21:17 for instance, there JC is saying that all men "will hate you because of me." (Or the other option is it's more hyperbole.)

But then I suppose the OT and the roots of Judaism even have their issues. God hardens hearts so they won't submit to him, etc.

It's a weird little paradox. Even a "mystery."

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2, NIV. 1

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16, NIV.

"God wants all men to come to him."

It may feel good. It may feel right. It may feel moral.

And while you can point out John 1 or Romans 5 or 1 Timothy 2, what the Bible says about "all men" is quite mixed.

Here's a good search to get started.

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=%22all+men%22

Maybe you'll have better luck (or scholarship or revelation) than me trying to reconcile the theologies of those different verses.

(And Sri, I hope talking about "God's Plan" and the possibly eternal torture of most all of a 100 billion fellow humans is "Big Picture" enough.)

 

[Sri]

Not to be rude, I had a hard time following some of the things you were saying. Maybe I am just not awake yet. I read your profile and I just wanted to say that I respect you for wanting to know truth. So many Christians are closed minded and never even consider other possibilities. For me personally, I have intensively consider those possibilities and the bible is the only thing I find credible. That doesn't mean I don't test it sort a speak. You put down that your an atheist. Are you really an atheist? Some times things don't make sense to us, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't a real truth there. So what I am getting at is are you just frusterated in your beliefs trying to sort things out and angry at God because maybe you are an atheist but maybe you are what I just described. People are so afraid to be angry with God. God would rather you talk to him that way and have a relationship that way then nothing at all. Good relationships usually have a few good arguements in them, it builds the relationship. Anywho, the God hardening their hearts thing I always thought of it as when a little child keeps trying to touch something hot, if they are willing enough they are going to do it anyway, they keep putting their hand up there and you keep telling them "no it will burn", they put their hand up there again and finally you let them because you love them and you let them do touch the candle flame for a small period of time and then you are like "I told you so, now why didn't you listen to mommy?." Ministry must be tough. I know a lot of people walk over other people and things are push and shove. Being a missionary sounds even more harder. Sounds fun and interesting, but hard very hard. Being a business man can be ministry to though. A lot of Christians are so closed minded they wouldn't think about that, but it is...like doctors and teachers aren't important. I guess people in the ministry can be really stuck on themselves feeling superior than others because they are "called by God" and they demand respect before it is even earned in that regard. You I believe in that regard HAVE earned it because you are honest in your quest. Not that you can earn salvation...you know what I mean. Anywho, I think God understands that too and this is just something between you and him to discuss because honestly, I don't buy it that you don't believe there is a God anymore. You were a Christian, not only that a missionary going on the mission field. You must have a one point or another in countered God to some degree. Maybe I can help you learn, maybe you can help me learn.

 

[Criada]

And by "it" would you be referring to...

- Catholic Christianity
- Protestant Christianity
- Eastern Orthodoxy Christianity
- Mormonism
- Jehovah's Witness
- Universalism
- Judaism
- Islam
- Hinduism
- Buddhism

...

One of those?

.

No.
Just - Jesus.
I'm not convinced by the traditions and rituals of any denomination - though I have nothing against them, and to some they are important.
So some of the above (though obviously not those who do not recognise Christ).

Because as someone said - can't remember who , but you may well know(!)
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

And for me, that is what happened.
Jesus didn't go away.

 

[IndyEllis]

Actually all of those I listed except Judaism and Buddhism will "recognize" Jesus in one way or another. Also many other's "recognize" Jesus as well. At least historically. Perhaps even most freethinkers.

So you're comfy with the doctrines of any of those?

The quote is Phillip K. Dick.

 

[Criada]

Actually all of those I listed except Judaism and Buddhism will "recognize" Jesus in one way or another. Also many other's "recognize" Jesus as well. At least historically. Perhaps even most freethinkers.

So you're comfy with the doctrines of any of those?

The quote is Phillip K. Dick.

How did I know you would know that? I'm useless at remembering who said what!

And I think you know what I mean! Maybe "recognize" was the wrong word.
I am comfortable with any who accept Jesus as God and as Saviour.

Outside of that - I don't know...

 

[IndyEllis]

And "inside that," exactly how do you know?

And are you suggesting that devout Jews err, uh, get eternal torture?

 

[Sri]

If a person has accepted Christ as their Lord and savior then they are saved, will be saved, and are being saved. Some Catholics are Christians they just still label themselves Catholic for whatever reason. Same as Jews because it is a part of who they are. I'm not saying you say your Wiccan and Christian, but you can be a believer and still label yourself Catholic or Jew because of history. Regards.

 

[Mobiosity]

No.
Just - Jesus.
I'm not convinced by the traditions and rituals of any denomination - though I have nothing against them, and to some they are important.
So some of the above (though obviously not those who do not recognise Christ).

Because as someone said - can't remember who , but you may well know(!)
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

And for me, that is what happened.
Jesus didn't go away.

That's a wonderful way to put it. My life has just been turned upside down and the only thing keeping me going is knowing that God's going through this with me. I'll be okay because He's with me. Yea it's really sh!thy that it happened, but He's helping me through it, He's as real to me as this laptop I'm typing on. Can I see Him? Only in the support and love from my family and friends. Can I hear Him? once again through the love of my family and friends. Can I feel Him? Oh boy yes. I feel the lift of someone praying for me. I feel the comfort that comes to me that, to me, means that His mighty hand is on my shoulder and under my backside supporting me and helping me. Will it all turn out the way I want it to? Maybe, maybe not. Will I make it through and be whole on the other side of it, you bet I will. He's seen me through things in much worse circumstances that worked out for the best. It's the getting through the circumstances that He is closest to me. I was born whole and healthy and white in a country that values those things. I flush my toilet with drinkable water; there are millions in the world who don't have access to drinkable water. I have all my limbs and all my senses. I am reasonably smart and reasonable sane. I have so many blessings that all have come from God. I work hard, God gave me the opportunity to try for a job that is technically challenging and interesting. I had no training, knowledge or education for it, but someone was willing to give me a try. I now make more than I ever expected to and have wonderful supportive loving co-workers and boss. With all these blessings I just have to keep thanking God for them and know that whatever happens it'll be good for someone, if not for me. To quote the late, great Harry Chapin. Reality is just a word.

 

[Criada]

And "inside that," exactly how do you know?

It comes back to feelings and choice, I suppose! I feel we are going in circles here!
I cannot produce concrete evidence, you cannot accepy anything less.
If what I have is "less".

And, intellectually, I can't justify what I beleive.
Neither can I make it go away.
You would probably say I am not courageous enough to try.
And perhaps that is true.

Certainly, by your standards I do not think it is possible to "know". But does that make something untrue?

And are you suggesting that devout Jews err, uh, get eternal torture?

No.
I have no idea how God judges the devout of other religions. Nor do I think that I can have, not being God. ( Call that a cop-out if you will!)
I am not sure where the eternal torture idea comes from.
Revelation mentions the "lake of fire", but this is described as a second, and presumably final, death.
Frankly - I don't understand.
I do, though ,believe that God is just, and that everyone must have a chance to turn to Him.
How He works this out, I have no idea, but I do trust in His justice and mercy.
However - there is free will...

 

[IndyEllis]

I have no idea how God judges the devout of other religions. Nor do I think that I can have, not being God. ( Call that a cop-out if you will!)

Frankly - I don't understand.

I do, though ,believe that God is just, and that everyone must have a chance to turn to Him.
How He works this out, I have no idea, but I do trust in His justice and mercy.

Criada, how do you think a theistic-leaning agnostic would have written this differently?

 

[Criada]

Originally Posted by IndyEllis
Criada, how do you think a theistic-leaning agnostic would have written this differently?

And there is the problem!
I know what you would say - I've been there.
And you know what I would say - you've been here.

And somewhere there is truth.

I believe that I know it - through faith, not evidence.
You want to prove it - through evidence, not faith.

So where do we meet?

 

[IndyEllis]

We meet in honesty.

Honesty to oneself and to others.

 

[Joykins]

If a person has accepted Christ as their Lord and savior then they are saved, will be saved, and are being saved. Some Catholics are Christians they just still label themselves Catholic for whatever reason. Same as Jews because it is a part of who they are. I'm not saying you say your Wiccan and Christian, but you can be a believer and still label yourself Catholic or Jew because of history. Regards.

Jews won't recognize you as Jewish if you believe in Jesus.

IndyEllis, I have been catching up with this thread and I think your wife is truly forunate in what you are willing to do for her and your family despite your lack of faith--yet you continue in faithfulness.

 

[Criada]

We meet in honesty.

Honesty to oneself and to others.

Yes.
And you are one of the most honest people I have met.
And you have led me to examine my beliefs more honestly than I have for some time.
For which I am grateful, because belief which doesn't stand up to examination is worthless.

But still - it doesn't go away!



To Christ Crucified

I am not moved to love Thee, 0 my Lord,
By any longing for Thy Promised Land;
Nor by the fear of hell am I unmanned
To cease from my transgressing deed or word.
Tis Thou Thyself dost move me,—Thy blood poured
Upon the cross from nailed foot and hand;
And all the wounds that did Thy body brand;
And all Thy shame and bitter death's award.
Yea, to Thy heart am I so deeply stirred
That I would love Thee were no heaven on high,—
That I would fear, were hell a tale absurd!
Such my desire, all questioning grows vain;
Though hope deny me hope I still should sigh,
And as my love is now, it should remain.

—Thomas Walsh


Not in any way evidential - but it speaks to me!

 

[IndyEllis]

And you have led me to examine my beliefs more honestly than I have for some time.

This is good. Otherwise one has to assume one had proper theology all figured out in childhood or something.

For which I am grateful, because belief which doesn't stand up to examination is worthless.

Indeed, indeed. All other ground is sinking sand.

But still - it doesn't go away!

I understand completely. It took me four years. I read about 100 books. I believe most of the books read are listed on page 13 of this thread.

Bit by bit. Little by little.

Things are going a bit better at home. I went the extra mile for my wife's birthday and for Mother's day. I think she's starting to recognize that my loss of faith is driven out of intellectual self-honesty and that this process has only helped me confirm in a similar honest-to-myself kind of way how dearly I love her.

 

[IndyEllis]

Dearest wife,

No matter how much
the world changes,
there's one thing
you can count on -
you have someone
who'll always love you,
someone who'll never forget
all the weird and wonderful stuff
we've weathered together
over the years.
You have someone
who'll never stop
caring about you,
worrying about you,
or wanting the very best for you.
And that will never change.

Happy Mother's Day

All my love,

IndyEllis