What do you do when you don't believe any more?

[Criada]

I understand completely. It took me four years. I read about 100 books. I believe most of the books read are listed on page 13 of this thread.

Bit by bit. Little by little.

A pretty comprehensive reading list! There are a few there I must try to find! Along with some old favourites - Lewis (what? no Screwtape letters??) and Dawkins are favourites of mine.
I have never actually read Josh McDowell's books, though I have heard them recommended. Obviously his evidence didn't convince you!

But the thing is, I don't actually want it to go away!
Perhaps that's cowardice.
Or honesty - life without God was a very bleak place!

Things are going a bit better at home. I went the extra mile for my wife's birthday and for Mother's day. I think she's starting to recognize that my loss of faith is driven out of intellectual self-honesty and that this process has only helped me confirm in a similar honest-to-myself kind of way how dearly I love her.

That's great.
And your poem is beautiful - your wife is very fortunate!

I am still praying for you and your family.

 

[IndyEllis]

A pretty comprehensive reading list! There are a few there I must try to find! Along with some old favourites - Lewis (what? no Screwtape letters??) and Dawkins are favourites of mine.

I haven't read Screwtape Letters but I'd like to. And Dawkins is also a favorite of mine. I think anyone interested in religion in the modern world should read The God Delusion being a best seller in religion and spirituality. If for no other reason than to actually know what non-theists think and to minster to them.

Since I posted that list, I've added another half dozen or so books. Right now it's 100% professed Christian authors - inspirational testimonies, doctrine and apologetics.

I have never actually read Josh McDowell's books, though I have heard them recommended. Obviously his evidence didn't convince you!

It's not so much "his" evidence as he seems to present weak strawmen arguments. If you want to know what non-theists actually think, you need to read non-theist authors with the actual non-theist points of view.

But the thing is, I don't actually want it to go away!

I understand. But what kind of a foundation is that... I mean, seriously...

Just because you want something to be true, that doesn't make it true. Isn't that a basic Sunday School lesson? Isn't that common sense to boot?

I certainly concur that belief is a powerful thing. I'm reading How Do You Know He's Real? right now. I read about half of it today. It's various [American] celebrity testimonies for their beliefs as well as why they hold those beliefs.

So far it is attesting to the power of belief...

- In accepting one's humanity...
- In recognizing one can't control everything...
- In recognizing status and fame aren't enough...
- In recognizing money isn't enough...
- In recognizing mind-altering substances are self destructive...
- In recognizing other addictive behaviours are self destructive...
- In recognizing there is not satisfaction in a life lived in hedonism and selfishness...
- In recognizing self-acceptance is hard...
- In recognizing self-control and self-discipline are hard...

And that...

- In the midsts of such "emptiness" and need...

One can reach for "something" more...

That is, something, to which one is being exposed or has been exposed to as a "greater power" and purpose...

And there a person can find a sense of fulfillment, purpose, and comfort that "all things happen for a reason" and comforting explanation for otherwise unexplainable fortunate (as well as challenging) events in life.

This all feels wonderfully comforting and good.

But it totally begs the question...

How does one know which creed(s), which canon(s), which set(s) of doctrines, which teaching(s) to be revealed, at the exclusion of all others, in a way that does not rely upon special pleading for that to which one was exposed to in a vulnerable or impressionable phase or moment in life?

It is a huge stretch between that feel-good feeling and just one single line of the Nicene Creed, the one which every Christian on this site was [somehow?] able to affirm belief in.

Simply, there is a world of difference between recognizing the power of belief and the truth of that which is believed in. These are two very separate things. (Unless one hasn't traveled much, read much or otherwise been exposed all that much to other ideas but then again in the age of the Internet, that's gonna be fewer and fewer and fewer people with each year that passes.)

Perhaps that's cowardice.

I don't think cowardice is the right word.

But then again, I'm not sure how it's actually all that satisfying if you ponder it too long.

Or honesty - life without God was a very bleak place!

I can understand completely.

Accepting that not all things necessisarily "happen for a purpose," accepting that I just may need to find my own purpose in life, accepting that nobody may rescue me from my own bad choices has given me a stark accountability for myself and for my own actions, for my own choices.

I am still finding my own way in this and you are right, it is not easy. In fact it is quite hard. But sometimes the hard thing is the honest thing.

That's great.
And your poem is beautiful - your wife is very fortunate!

I am still praying for you and your family.

Thank you. I'm reminded of the typical non-theist reply...

I guess then I'll be thinking for you and yours then.

But that just seems so snotty.

You can give whatever thought you need to your faith. Your walk is your walk and Christianity is a revealed religion.

You either need to [somehow?] judge that the creed, canon, doctrines, and teachings that you have been exposed to are the revealed by-none-other-than-God truth. Or that you have been given direct revelation yourself.

I only ask you understand, at least a bit, why I am where I am.

I appreciate the dialogue. Best regards.

 

[Sri]

If you want to know what non-theists actually think, you need to read non-theist authors with the actual non-theist points of view.

Good point. I remember I made myself read this big ugly purple book. All it ranted about presented opinions as fact. It was very stereotypical, postmodern and I think the dude hated Christians (specifically Pentecostals). If I wasn't a Christian and I read that I would be even more confused about what Christianity is and probably become a modern day saul. I hated that book. No one made me read it. I read it. I highlighted in it. I researched through out it and when I was done I threw it in the trash. (It was a free book) I threw it in the trash, but I read it. It isn't only reading though. You can't just read about people and then think you know about them. You have to actually engage in human contact with them. You can read all you want about a people group, meet them and it might shake your world. If you don't first realize that you know nothing about them, they will and will let you know. Expierance is a part of it. You can read all about how to style a black woman's hair and then you can actually attempt to do it. You might accomplish something, but that might not be a good accomplishment.

 

[IndyEllis]

An excellent point!

I travel a lot on business and I am often reading my Bible, reading Christian authors, even reading stuff like The God Delusion. Stuff most people are too chicken to read in public.

I never bring the topic up with a stranger myself, but sometimes, someone will bring up religion with me.

Usually I say very little.

But what I have observed is the incredible syncretistic beliefs that many people have. It is often some sort of combo of 1) orthodox religious training and a few very selected passages of a holy book combined with 2) some sort of pop culture The Force, The Matrix, or whatever, combined with 3) some sort of feel-good new age philosophy combined with 4) some sort of integration with rationalism, science and naturalism.

People will start talking. All you got to do is ask a few "what do you think?" and other inquiring questions without interjecting any of your own beliefs or putting on of the need-to-witness helmet, and you wouldn't believe what actually comes out.

It's utterly astonishing.

 

[Criada]

I haven't read Screwtape Letters but I'd like to. And Dawkins is also a favorite of mine. I think anyone interested in religion in the modern world should read The God Delusion being a best seller in religion and spirituality. If for no other reason than to actually know what non-theists think and to minster to them.

Since I posted that list, I've added another half dozen or so books. Right now it's 100% professed Christian authors - inspirational testimonies, doctrine and apologetics.

Have you read "Surprised by Joy?". Another of my favourites!

It's not so much "his" evidence as he seems to present weak strawmen arguments. If you want to know what non-theists actually think, you need to read non-theist authors with the actual non-theist points of view.

Agreed! As I said, I haven't read him, and to be honest, he is not high on my list of priorities.

I understand. But what kind of a foundation is that... I mean, seriously...

Just because you want something to be true, that doesn't make it true. Isn't that a basic Sunday School lesson? Isn't that common sense to boot?

Indeed.
And that is not the reason for my belief, merely a statement that I do not actively wish to disprove it!
I believe because I cannot not believe.
Because of that still small voice which never goes away.
Because of what I see God doing in me, because of the ways He is changing me.
Because He has answered my prayers.
And because when I look at Jesus, I am overwhelmed by love.

None of which is evidence , I know.

And there have been times when I have not wanted it to be true.
When I have wished that I could just walk away, because in some ways it would have been easier.
But I can't.

I certainly concur that belief is a powerful thing. I'm reading How Do You Know He's Real? right now. I read about half of it today. It's various [American] celebrity testimonies for their beliefs as well as why they hold those beliefs.

So far it is attesting to the power of belief...

- In accepting one's humanity...
- In recognizing one can't control everything...
- In recognizing status and fame aren't enough...
- In recognizing money isn't enough...
- In recognizing mind-altering substances are self destructive...
- In recognizing other addictive behaviours are self destructive...
- In recognizing there is not satisfaction in a life lived in hedonism and selfishness...
- In recognizing self-acceptance is hard...
- In recognizing self-control and self-discipline are hard...

And that...

- In the midsts of such "emptiness" and need...

One can reach for "something" more...

That is, something, to which one is being exposed or has been exposed to as a "greater power" and purpose...

And there a person can find a sense of fulfillment, purpose, and comfort that "all things happen for a reason" and comforting explanation for otherwise unexplainable fortunate (as well as challenging) events in life.

This all feels wonderfully comforting and good.

But it totally begs the question...

How does one know which creed(s), which canon(s), which set(s) of doctrines, which teaching(s) to be revealed, at the exclusion of all others, in a way that does not rely upon special pleading for that to which one was exposed to in a vulnerable or impressionable phase or moment in life?

It is a huge stretch between that feel-good feeling and just one single line of the Nicene Creed, the one which every Christian on this site was [somehow?] able to affirm belief in.

Simply, there is a world of difference between recognizing the power of belief and the truth of that which is believed in. These are two very separate things. (Unless one hasn't traveled much, read much or otherwise been exposed all that much to other ideas but then again in the age of the Internet, that's gonna be fewer and fewer and fewer people with each year that passes.)

I agree.
And there are so many people, many of them professing to be Christians, who "believe" in a woolly, uncomprehending way because they have never tested their beliefs - and often cannot even really say what they do believe.
And perhaps, for them, that is enough - who am I to judge.
And many will attest to the Nicene creed unthinkingly, because of their upbringing or background.
But for me, faith needs to be more than that.

I don't think cowardice is the right word.

But then again, I'm not sure how it's actually all that satisfying if you ponder it too long.

That alone is not.
But - faith is a gift of God.
Which looks like a cop-out.
But actually doesn't make things any easier intellectually!!

I can understand completely.

Accepting that not all things necessisarily "happen for a purpose," accepting that I just may need to find my own purpose in life, accepting that nobody may rescue me from my own bad choices has given me a stark accountability for myself and for my own actions, for my own choices.

I am still finding my own way in this and you are right, it is not easy. In fact it is quite hard. But sometimes the hard thing is the honest thing.

Indeed.
And I very much admire your honesty.
It is what makes you who you are, and should ever be sacrificed.
But sometimes, honesty can lead you the other way...
And that can also be hard.

Thank you. I'm reminded of the typical non-theist reply...

I guess then I'll be thinking for you and yours then.

But that just seems so snotty.

You can give whatever thought you need to your faith. Your walk is your walk and Christianity is a revealed religion.

You either need to [somehow?] judge that the creed, canon, doctrines, and teachings that you have been exposed to are the revealed by-none-other-than-God truth. Or that you have been given direct revelation yourself.

Yes.
And the trouble with direct revelation is that it is probably impossible to prove...

I only ask you understand, at least a bit, why I am where I am.

I appreciate the dialogue. Best regards.

I do understand.
In so far as one human being can understand another - which is maybe not very much!
But I think that we are not so very far apart!

And I also appreciate this - it is too easy to just let things ride...

 

[IndyEllis]

But I think that we are not so very far apart!

Nope, and I think the key differences involve the disambiguation of the word "belief."

- How much does one "desire" or "hope" something to be so?
- How much does one "assert" or "profess" something to be so?
- How much does one truly "know" something to be so?
- And when it gets down to it in the real world, what does one actually do based upon all this.

I personally like the emphasis on the last two of those list, especially that last one. It just seems more honest.

 

[Criada]

Nope, and I think the key differences involve the disambiguation of the word "belief."

- How much does one "desire" or "hope" something to be so?
- How much does one "assert" or "profess" something to be so?
- How much does one truly "know" something to be so?
- And when it gets down to it in the real world, what does one actually do based upon all this.

I personally like the emphasis on the last two of those list, especially that last one. It just seems more honest.

Yes it's a big word!

I don't think that desire and hope are belief, though they may well lead to belief.
And certainly, they are a starting point for many.

As to assertion and profession, they surely must come from something deeper.
I can assert that the moon is made of cheese - it is unlikely that anyone over the age of six will believe me!
Though many profess a faith they have inherited, and perhaps have no deep seated belief in...

Truly "knowing" is more difficult.
My knowledge must be subjective if what is known is not supported by evidence.
And yet, to actually claim to know is more than a simple assertion.
And I would say that I know God - yet I cannot offer any evidence which you would not dismiss as coincidence or special pleading.

Which leaves us with the "fruits" so to speak.
What does one do?

James 2:17
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James 2:22
You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

(Sorry -couldn't resist!!)

Obviously, if faith is sincere, it will lead to action - and the change in the way someone acts may be seen as evidence of the reality of his faith.
But, of course, not as evidence of the thing he has faith in.

And yet, many people with no faith live a morally upright life.
Not perfect - but then, who is?

So - where is the difference?

Frankly - I don't know!

I do know that God gives me strength to live in a way that I do not think that I could without Him.
And I have seen many people's lives transformed by Him, in what I would term a miraculous way.

But I fully realize that you can explain this without recourse to God.

So - again, we come full circle!

And I continue to pray!
(And your "thoughts" are appreciated! )

 

[IndyEllis]

I can assert that the moon is made of cheese

Check this out!

http://moon.google.com/

Using the "+" on the scale navigator, zoom in all the way.

BTW, I'm barely, just barely old enough to remember Apolo 17. I remember being out Christmas carolling with the family and other church families and seeing images of the landing on a neighbor's television.

 

[Criada]

Check this out!

http://moon.google.com/

Using the "+" on the scale navigator, zoom in all the way.

BTW, I'm barely, just barely old enough to remember Apolo 17. I remember being out Christmas carolling with the family and other church families and seeing images of the landing on a neighbor's television.

OK - I was wrong - it is made of cheese!!

 

[IndyEllis]

Thought I'd say I'm still around.

Not too many updates. DW had asked me to read a number of Christian apologetics books. I'm chugging through them at a pace of about one a week. Nothing too new. Each author makes me wonder why he's not read up on a good number of topics whether simple awareness of logical fallacies or naturalistic explanations.

I'm also chugging along on my full annotation of my Bible - every chapter, every paragraph, every margin. I'm almost to the half way point having nearly half the books of the Bible fully marked up. It is amazing what the Bible actually says. Not just the feel-good greeting-card-and-poster verses, nor just the what-gets-preached-on verses. I'm it is amazing what it actually says. This is my second pass through the Bible. I've heard stories of a number of atheists who have lost their faith and a read through the Bible being key in the deconversion.

Hope everyone is doing well. Kinda disappointed that nobody here every really presented any sort of stand-up-in-court evidence that was so casually asserted. Oh well, it is what it is.

 

[Criada]

Hi!

I was wondering whether you had left CF - glad you haven't!

I'd be interested to hear which parts of "what the Bible actually says" you are referring to. Bear in mind that reading the Bible has also been key in a great many people becoming Christians! Probably depends on what you are looking for...

I 'm not sure that "stand up in court" evidence for what are essentially spiritual issues is ever going to happen - but I hope that someone can prove me wrong on that!

 

[Mobiosity]

Thought I'd say I'm still around.

Not too many updates. DW had asked me to read a number of Christian apologetics books. I'm chugging through them at a pace of about one a week. Nothing too new. Each author makes me wonder why he's not read up on a good number of topics whether simple awareness of logical fallacies or naturalistic explanations.

I'm also chugging along on my full annotation of my Bible - every chapter, every paragraph, every margin. I'm almost to the half way point having nearly half the books of the Bible fully marked up. It is amazing what the Bible actually says. Not just the feel-good greeting-card-and-poster verses, nor just the what-gets-preached-on verses. I'm it is amazing what it actually says. This is my second pass through the Bible. I've heard stories of a number of atheists who have lost their faith and a read through the Bible being key in the deconversion.

Hope everyone is doing well. Kinda disappointed that nobody here every really presented any sort of stand-up-in-court evidence that was so casually asserted. Oh well, it is what it is.

I'm sorry no arguments have been presented that would help you. I have no arguments to present, only experiences. A week ago yesterday I was driving down the streets in DC heading to work after dropping of my current husband. I was praying on my way, as I do sometimes. Binding demons that are attacking us and our home and The Holy Spirit just filled me, filled the car. His power was flowing through and around me like nothing I'd ever experienced. I felt like I could have flown never more loved. I got to work and told everyone I knew who was a Christian and some that weren't I went into my cubicle and danced before The Lord with joy. Someone said my face was glowing, my current husband told me that my face glowed when I came home from a church that I attended with a very Spirit-filled Pastor. I am going through a very hard time right now and I am surrounded by loving friends and family who are helping me. I was thanking God for them and He put Hand on my heart and my head and let me know that He is getting me through it, not them. I was putting away laundry a few years ago and I felt the unmistakable knowledge that God, the creator of the universe is very interested in me, in my life. I'm nothing but a sinner who loves grace, to quote a song, but He's involved and interested in me. Quite humbling. I know He's there and I'm sorry I can't convince you; however I hope you become open to Him once again and shed the demons that are binding you and blinding you.

Good luck and God bless you.
Mobi
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[IndyEllis]

Mobiosity, thanks for saying hi.

I'd be interested to hear which parts of "what the Bible actually says" you are referring to. Bear in mind that reading the Bible has also been key in a great many people becoming Christians! Probably depends on what you are looking for...

Ah, presuppositionalism. I'm wrapping up reading Schaeffer's The God Who Is There right now.

I could pull out many, many passages to discuss.

Perhaps a good one to discuss would be Deuteronomy 32:8-9.

The following might be interesting... http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/bible.htm

Thoughts?

 

[Criada]

Mobiosity, thanks for saying hi.



Ah, presuppositionalism. I'm wrapping up reading Schaeffer's The God Who Is There right now.

I could pull out many, many passages to discuss.

Perhaps a good one to discuss would be Deuteronomy 32:8-9.

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel.
9 For the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted inheritance.

?? - not sure what point you are making here - this seems a fairly uncontoversial description of the setting of tribal boundaries!

The following might be interesting... http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/bible.htm

Thoughts?

Had a quick look - I'll have to get back to you on that, as I have a mob of children wanting to be taken swimming, and it doesn't look as though I could do it justice in five minutes!!

 

[IndyEllis]

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel.
9 For the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted inheritance.

?? - not sure what point you are making here - this seems a fairly uncontoversial description of the setting of tribal boundaries!




Had a quick look - I'll have to get back to you on that, as I have a mob of children wanting to be taken swimming, and it doesn't look as though I could do it justice in five minutes!!

When you get a chance, spend some time with the Hebrew, the LXX, various historical and modern English translations as well as various scholars' discussions. Might need to also do some research on ancient Mesopotamian religious beliefs as well as stances on this passage by the Catholic chuch, LDS church, conservative orthodox theologians, liberal theologians. Not sure what Marcion made of this passage, but I wonder.

Anyhow, there's a whole lot packed into those two versions than "uncontoversial description of the setting of tribal boundaries."

But not so much that it is just those or any other small number of verses taken "out of context." We could have discussion starting about anywhere. I know the Bible pretty well, a lot better than most lay persons at this point. I just picked this passage some what arbitrarily.

Anyhow, I wonder if this passage and what could be a wonderful discussion could possibly serve as a gateway for you, or anybody else interested, for a much less superficial, much more profoundly rich understanding of the Bible.

If anyone is going to help me in my struggle, it will not be through cutesy cliches of greeting cards, posters, and American bumper stickers.

 

[OldChurchGuy]

When you get a chance, spend some time with the Hebrew, the LXX, various historical and modern English translations as well as various scholars' discussions. Might need to also do some research on ancient Mesopotamian religious beliefs as well as stances on this passage by the Catholic chuch, LDS church, conservative orthodox theologians, liberal theologians. Not sure what Marcion made of this passage, but I wonder.

Anyhow, there's a whole lot packed into those two versions than "uncontoversial description of the setting of tribal boundaries."

But not so much that it is just those or any other small number of verses taken "out of context." We could have discussion starting about anywhere. I know the Bible pretty well, a lot better than most lay persons at this point. I just picked this passage some what arbitrarily.

Anyhow, I wonder if this passage and what could be a wonderful discussion could possibly serve as a gateway for you, or anybody else interested, for a much less superficial, much more profoundly rich understanding of the Bible.

If anyone is going to help me in my struggle, it will not be through cutesy cliches of greeting cards, posters, and American bumper stickers.

OK coach, I'm game. What is the profound nature of these seemingly simple verses?

Like Criada, it is good to know you are still around and continuing your journey of discovery. The tone in these last posts sound much more "at peace"; as though you have broken through some sort of great barrier.

Looking forward to a continuing discussion with you and the others who join.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

 

[IndyEllis]

OCG! Thanks for stopping by. I've been thinking about you and hope all is well. I hope you're enjoying the the transition into summer and the wonderful outdoor activities that this season brings.

OK coach, I'm game. What is the profound nature of these seemingly simple verses?

But, hey, wait a minute... I get to be the skeptic here and I get to ask the question. Beside, isn't something better when you get to find it and discover it and try to understand it a bit yourself. Much better than just taking an assertion or proposition for granted?

Like Criada, it is good to know you are still around and continuing your journey of discovery. The tone in these last posts sound much more "at peace"; as though you have broken through some sort of great barrier.

I am becoming at peace to a degree. I am at an increased level of intellectual honesty which is really, really good. But emotionally I still grieve my loss. And on the home front it is difficult. I feel for my wife. It is hard for her. She never would have guessed her husband would become an apostate and she knows that she can't really explain her faith to me really any better than anybody here can. But she does know that while I am not perfect, I am faithful and I love her dearly. A strong thread that has developed through many phases of life shared between us remains. Perhaps it is getting tested, but it is what happens in the tough times that define our character, not what happens in the easy times.

Anyhow, she gave me a stack of books to read. All Christian authors, mostly in the flavors of American Protestant evangelicalism including testimonies, apologetics, Bible study as well as some frankly eye-rolling YECs.

And I continue to read and annotate my Bible.

Only reading 100% Christian-ese now and will probably be the case for the rest of the year to get through all those books.

Right now I'm reading Francis Schaeffer's The God Who is There. It had been quite a while since I had read him.

Anyhow it is sad how almost easy it is to point out how unread he was in the natural sciences, his strawmen, his red herrings, his special pleading, his No True Scotsman fallacies, his strong anthropological bias, the actually humanistic foundation of his presuppositionalistic method. And again, I mark up the margins asking questions to the albeit-dead author. But it's like, sheesh, why didn't you even bother getting a critical reviewer to proof read your text? I mean, like, I'm a lay person here.

I mean, like all the guy really does is prop up a ill-defined version of Protestantism vs. an early 20th century philosophic nihilism of the couture haute of Western civilization.

But what's so freeing is that his presuppositional method is not too different from the internal one I went through. To remove the "tensions" between doctrines, scriptures, and other memes of the memeplex of the version of Christianity to which I had been principally exposed and the evidence of various fields of natural sciences as well as in textual criticism and other areas of Biblical scholarship.

Yes, there is an increased degree of being at peace.

But just because one is intellectually honest to oneself does not make it all that much easier emotionally or socially.

It still remains a journey. Bit by bit. Day by day.

Looking forward to a continuing discussion with you and the others who join.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

Me too.

Anyhow I recall I had been prayed for here for a peace that passes understanding. Perhaps that's what I'm incrementally finding.

And so far, it seems much better, than a peace that bypasses understanding.

 

[Criada]

Not had time for any real study of this - my children are off school this week, so chaos reigns! Household chores can be ignored (and often are!), small children are more persistant!

However, on a very superficial glance, I assume that what you are reffering to is the "number of the sons of God" in the Dead sea text, which becomes "sons of Israel" in the Masoretic text.

Have not yet looked at any discussions of this - next week, perhaps!

But - whilst the concept of the "Council of gods" are interesting in the context of the reigning polytheism of the time, I can't see much tension between this and faith.
But then, I am willing to accept that revelation played a part here, which is where we differ!
Obviously writings of this time will reflect the local beliefs, and the reference to other gods is inevitable. This does not make the central tennet of monotheism any less true!

I realize that this is a pretty superficial answer, by the way - I will attempt to do it more justice when time pressures allow!

As to the anthropological study - I studied anthropology for a couple of years, and have seen and indeed written similar intellectually self -satisfied essays on the customs and beliefs of "inferior" societies! Not actually something I am proud of! The facts here may be true - I am sure they have been rigorously researched - but what is the aim? It certainly does not seem to be understanding of how an why people believed/believe these things!

Sorry - personal rant there! Ignore it - I'm sure such things do serve a purpose, but it is a path that really no longer appeals!

Anyhow I recall I had been prayed for here for a peace that passes understanding. Perhaps that's what I'm incrementally finding.

And so far, it seems much better, than a peace that bypasses understanding.

I am glad to hear this! Though your nod in the direction of answered prayer surprises me somewhat!
I do, however, continue to pray for you!!

(Apologies if parts of this post seem judgemental, and other parts somewhat trite! I have just read it through, but really don't have time to edit. So - I will post it as it stands rather than delete it, and ask your forgiveness in advance if I offend!)

 

[Catherineanne]

It has been rationally and intellectually driven. It has been honest.

After my investigation of the evidence (which shamefully I had never done prior in my life), I am no longer convinced in the divine inspiration of the 66 book Protestant canon. I am no longer convinced in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth.

I would not be a bit concerned if I were you. Your faith was based on one particular level of knowledge, which you rightly tested and found to be wanting.

Now you need to find a more substantial basis for your faith from this point onwards.

But one thing I would say to you is, God is still there, and his love for you remains as constant as ever, and you have nothing to fear. A God of truth is never threatened by someone pursuing truth.

If anyone can be a Christian (or any other faith, for that matter) for several decades and never reach a crisis point such as you describe, then I personally would say their faith is not dynamic nor capable of growth.

Or, from another point of view, up to this point you were contained in a seed case which is no longer capable of holding you, and you are now growing towards the light. But that which went before is not lost, and you will grow from it, rather than losing anything that has value. All you have lost, in fact, is the shell. Useful for a while, but pretty well redundant now.

I often say our faith is not a destination but a journey. You have not stopped your journey, just started a new phase of it. I suspect you will find Christ waiting for you at the end of it, as we all will

 

[IndyEllis]

Catherineanne, thanks for the encouragement and support.

I'd say I still have a mustard seed's worth of faith, but I really don't any more.

Maybe I only have an orchid seed's worth.

(http://waynesword.palomar.edu/plfeb96.htm

Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches." ~ Matthew 13:32

(I also wonder why this thread gets a good proportion of folks from outside the US of A.)