What do we do to prevent another Las Vegas?

[SolomonVII]

Why must we keep it within America only?

We can do what we want.
I think that comparing apples with apples is a good thing though. That is why nobody is bringing Honduras into the comparison, isn't it?

So why do we need so many guns? If we are as safe as other places with fewer guns, why are we told non-stop that we need guns to protect ourselves?

Americans are a self-reliant people. It is up to each and every one of them to chose what they need and what they want.

More guns in circulation = higher probability of gun access (whether through theft or misuse, etc.)

Uh huh. Nevertheless, as the number of guns have risen, the number of homicides have fallen.

Love that argument. Since bad people will always do bad things why have any laws at all?

That is not the argument. Criminals do have guns already,and illegally. That is where the problem of homicide is. It is just like illegal immigration. There is no need to scrap the constitution when enforcing the dam laws already on the books, and getting the bad guys off the street is the big first step that too many are queasy to take.

We've gotten rid of other amendments, just an FYI.

Great. If you think it is practical, then by all means, scrap this one.

If the gun owners of America don't get their stuff together sooner or later these mass shootings will result in much less pleasant outcomes for those who love their guns.

Are the people without guns going to come knocking at their door in the middle of the night?
What exactly kind of threat are you intending to make here?

D

o something now or just wait. See what people sufficiently fed up with the mealy mouthed responses do after a couple hundred more mass-shootings. Sooner or later the NRA will lose its grip on government officials.

The NRA is a major boogey man and a minor player in funding of government officials.

At this point in the game those people who truly value their guns will have to agree to some things or it will be much worse for them in the future.

I see.

They have to agree to be on a registry so we know who has the guns. They need to agree to aggressive background checks. They need to agree to restrictions on their guns in many more invasive means.

None of this requires a scrapping of the 2nd, and many of these things are already on the books.

And they need to PAY for their guns. They need to pay surcharges on each gun and ammunition purchase to pay for mental healthcare improvements and first responders who deal with the aftermath of countless mass shootings.

Confiscation through taxation. Interesting idea.

Pay up one way or another. Americans may like their guns but I doubt they will put up with this stupidity forever. Think strategically or face much worse consequences later on.

Why do mass shooters shoot indiscriminately?
Seems to me that one thing to do to solve the problem is to stop sending our the signal that most Americans are despicable, deplorable people for having the values they do.

Been done before.

There is the amending formula. If you think that is a practical idea in this particular instance, then that is up to you.

We don't NEED a Second Amendment interpreted as broadly as ours is interpreted and not everyone agrees that it applies to private ownership in the way we hold it.

The twentieth century showed the founding fathers prescient in their understanding of the tyranny of governments, and the inherent God given right of a self-reliant people to protect themselves, period.
Every day that goes by where the left in the West continue to play around with socialism, and not renounce that Marxism as vigorously as we all have Fasicsm -as if hundreds of millions of people have not died as a result of such governments being instituted- is another day that the sensibility of the second amendment makes itself known. 50 is not just a statistic, but neither is 100 million.
That such numbers do not figure into the thinking of so many people on the left who want to scrap the second is unsurprising, given that they have also supported the slaughter of 50 million unborn without blinking.
It is not that your heart is bigger. It is that it is selective of what it cares about.

 

[Hank77]

Virtually no one involved in writing the Constitution could have imagined the kind of equipment or event that resulted in Las Vegas.

What? These guys were intelligent and well educated. They knew that weapons had progressed from clubs and catapults to guns and cannons. You cannot possibly expect anyone to believe that they didn't know that man's ingenuity and creativity wouldn't lead to much more power weaponry.
By 1849, less than 65 yrs. from the signing of the Constitution, the first patents were given for repeating rifles in less than 100 yrs we had the first recoil machine gun. James Madison didn't die until 1836, but he couldn't have known? Benjamin Franklin, scientist/inventor couldn't have imagined?

They also knew that as the population grew it would lead to having a standing army just as it has from the earliest written history of the world and yet , they still wrote the Second Amendment into our Constitution. Indeed they wrote into the Constitution laws for a standing army, Article 1, Section 8.
In 1799, the first standing military units where formed, the US Calvary, by the Congress of the United States. 3,000 men and equipment ready in case of war. That Calvary was never disbanded and continues today as a branch of the US Army.

History doesn't in any way show that the men who wrote and signed the Constitution didn't mean the individual citizen or that they couldn't imagine the types of weapons that we would have.

 

[Armoured]

What? These guys were intelligent and well educated. They knew that weapons had progressed from clubs and catapults to guns and cannons. You cannot possibly expect anyone to believe that they didn't know that man's ingenuity and creativity wouldn't lead to much more power weaponry.
By 1849, less than 65 yrs. from the signing of the Constitution, the first patents were given for repeating rifles in less than 100 yrs we had the first recoil machine gun. James Madison didn't die until 1836, but he couldn't have known? Benjamin Franklin, scientist/inventor couldn't have imagined?

They also knew that as the population grew it would lead to having a standing army just as it has from the earliest written history of the world and yet , they still wrote the Second Amendment into our Constitution. Indeed they wrote into the Constitution laws for a standing army, Article 1, Section 8.
In 1799, the first standing military units where formed, the US Calvary, by the Congress of the United States. 3,000 men and equipment ready in case of war. That Calvary was never disbanded and continues today as a branch of the US Army.

History doesn't in any way show that the men who wrote and signed the Constitution didn't mean the individual citizen or that they couldn't imagine the types of weapons that we would have.

So what? Really, the Founding Fathers weren't infallible, and the Constitution isn't holy writ. If a bit of it isn't working, change it.

Honestly, I'm pretty tired of "but the Constitution says!" argument. The Constitution is meant to be for the benefit of the people, not the other way around.

 

[PeachyKeane]

I think businesses should openly welcome the lawful carry of firearms. The reason most terrorist shooters attack the places they do is because the targets are unlikely to be armed. A criminal is less likely to rob a liquor store or what have you if he knows he's probably going to get shot right away. Similarly, a terrorist shooter is less likely to attack a group of intended victims if he knows they can readily return fire.

You understand why businesses don't, right?

Secondly, we should have better healthcare. As a person with a mental illness, I have firsthand knowledge of mental hospitals, and I've seen an antisocial psychotic man with schizophrenia go untreated because his therapists and doctors didn't like him. I've seen parents ignore their child's mental problems, then act completely surprised when their son or daughter acts violently.

And how do we improve that?

Thirdly, we need a more vigilant and caring population. I've seen fights break out in the street, and people just turn their back, because it's "not their problem." We need people willing to call police, to intervene to protect others against assault, and to report suspicious activity.

How would you do that? There's a psychological phenomenon called 'deferral of responsibility' where people turn away from an issue because they assume someone else will take care of it. How do you intend to beat that?

Lastly, I would say we need people to educate themselves on firearms. Go to a class and learn how to shoot. I see a lot of fear among opponents of firearms, because they seem to think firearms are inherently dangerous. They ignore the fact a firearm is only as dangerous as the user. Even if you don't like guns, it benefits a person not to be afraid of them, and to know how to use them.

Do you think these are just as necessary in Australia? The UK? Canada? South Korea? Japan?

I'd also like to see people for and against firearms get together with open minds to talk. Not yell, not argue, not think evil of another. "I believe this because that." "I believe that because this." Share stories, listen, and seek to understand before being understood. Seek to listen before being heard.

How would you do that?

 

[Hank77]

Honestly, I'm pretty tired of "but the Constitution says!" argument. The Constitution is meant to be for the benefit of the people, not the other way around.

The only argument I was making was against a statement saying that the Founding Fathers didn't know certain things.

 

[Armoured]

The only argument I was making was against a statement saying that the Founding Fathers didn't know certain things.

Ok.

 

[TheBear]

Why are firearms the only issue you accept these sorts of stats as "the price of doing business"? Again, consider Kinder Surprises? Buckyballs? Lawn Darts?

Why are you living in the fantasy world of Utopia, where everything is 100% perfect at all times?

 

[mark46]

Not to mention mere posesion of a fire arm doesn't confer invulnerability against criminals.

???
I was sure that simply owning firearms made one invincible.

 

[dgiharris]

Gun Violence Archive
Home Invasions | Gun Violence Archive
Defensive Use | Gun Violence Archive

looking at these statistics, its really hard to say whether guns hurt or help...

for instance: 1531 unintentional shootings vs 1540 defensive use

I see 1800-ish for home invasions but no differentiation between homeowner and intruder

in any event, looks like a hodgepodge of stats with an overall trend not favorable to gun ownership in the US. TO be fair, it's hard to say because you have to go into the stats and tease out the positive from the negative. As is, it is very hard to do just looking at the stats on the site. You'd have to go on a case-by-case basis and that would take way too much time.

To bad there isn't an overview of "pro gun ownership" vs "anti gun ownership" level stats. that is, a compilation of the "pro gun" stats vs the "anti gun" stats...

 

[Hank77]

for instance: 1531 unintentional shootings vs 1540 defensive use

Something can be done about unintentional shootings. You named one yourself about better training. I named one about tough consequences for adults when they leave guns where children have access to them.

I see 1800-ish for home invasions but no differentiation between homeowner and intruder

I'm not sure what you are referring to here?
The home invasions where a gun is used for defense are also listed with the Defensive Use cases.
My reason for posting the home invasions was because someone had said that home invasions are during the day when no one is at home. Looking through many cases I have yet to find one that was during the day and there were just under 1900 of them.

To bad there isn't an overview of "pro gun ownership" vs "anti gun ownership" level stats. that is, a compilation of the "pro gun" stats vs the "anti gun" stats...

I like that they don't give this is 'pro' this is 'con'. They just give facts and one can make their own judgements on recommendations based on those facts.

 

[SolomonVII]

The only argument I was making was against a statement saying that the Founding Fathers didn't know certain things.

I don't think it can be said enough that the genius of the founding fathers was to state unequivocally that rights come from God and not from government. That is not even a religious statement. It only means that however one defines God, it is that higher power that imbues us with rights, and not government.
And of course, the most basic right of a self-reliant people is the right to defend their lives and liberty from any one or any thing that wills to oppress it.
We do not even need to look to twentieth century totalitarians states to recognize how oppressive those governments can be. Even American governments have been pretty oppressive, and disrespectful of the persons of certain races for just but one of the obvious examples.
It is worthwhile to remember that Americans do not get these rights to self-defense from the Constitution. The Constitution gives Americans nothing. The Constitution merely asserts the fact that people indeed do have that right given to them from God, and God alone.
that is why that in the end, what the statistics show are of little significance. Freedom is never a placid, easy path. It is dangerous and filled with peril at every turn. The path of freedom indeed is only fit for those with the courage and the bravery to dare to tread upon it.
Freedom is for those with courage only. That is why it is the only path that a dignified, self-reliant, and independent people will every chose for themselves. If any decide to try to take away the right of such a courageous people their right to defend themselves against oppression, rest assured that they will be doing so at their own peril.
That is what the Second Amendment is telling the rest of the world.

 

[Armoured]

Why are you living in the fantasy world of Utopia, where everything is 100% perfect at all times?

...huh?

 

[drjean]

At least the founding fathers all believed in God and included Him in their documents, made the Bible the only text in school, universities begun and led by ministers, etc. And they knew first-hand what tyranny is. The documents are to LIMIT government, not the people.

I personally do not believe that one guy could do all that shooting. He was quite a drinker, and a bump-stock really wracks your shoulder. He also didn't plan on ending his life there, according to a note they found... and the some 200 bullet holes in the double doors proves that. He didn't commit suicide imo.

We need to reach people for God. Time is short. Young people are disillusioned and "brain washed" by lack of proper education... and many churches are social gospel not Bible doctrines...real hymns of verses are out the window and replaced with rinse and repeat choruses... time is short... a major fix just won't occur imo... we need to each win one!

 

[Zoii]

Do you think being unarmed and facing a rapist in your home is a fair price to pay for your gun control? Would you say that to the victims who have been raped?

I totally get the philosophy of gun owning Americans. And I believe it as much a cultural heritage as well. I think you should just stick with that. Trying to use self defence of rape prevention as an argument won't help you because your rape statistics are worse per 100 000 then countries like Australia that don't have a gun culture. If having a gun is about self defence then can you see that it's not working if your murder rates are higher than in countries that don't have guns.

I think the country's desire to maintain a gun culture is all you need as an argument. Then its more about controls that will help limit adverse gun events.

 

[SolomonVII]

Young people are disillusioned and "brain washed" by lack of proper education... and many churches are social gospel not Bible doctrines...

At least the founding fathers all believed in God and included Him in their documents, made the Bible the only text in school, universities begun and led by ministers, etc. And they knew first-hand what tyranny is. The documents are to LIMIT government, not the people.

I personally do not believe that one guy could do all that shooting. He was quite a drinker, and a bump-stock really wracks your shoulder. He also didn't plan on ending his life there, according to a note they found... and the some 200 bullet holes in the double doors proves that. He didn't commit suicide imo.

We need to reach people for God. Time is short. Young people are disillusioned and "brain washed" by lack of proper education... and many churches are social gospel not Bible doctrines...real hymns of verses are out the window and replaced with rinse and repeat choruses... time is short... a major fix just won't occur imo... we need to each win one!

I think that it is very possible that disillusionment has become a part of a Western education. Availability of guns haven't changed much in the last 50 years in America. People have always had access to guns in America, but fifty years ago, these kinds of shootings were not common occurrences. It was not as if there weren't murders, but they were not indiscriminate. They were passionate and personal, all about people using violence to satiate their appetites, or revenge and conquest.
America is a different kind of place now. It once would have been inconceivable for anyone on the outside of America to see masses of Americans on TV shaking their fist at the flag, or otherwise disrespecting it, and being cheered on by American elites, for example. That world simply did not exist fifty years ago. Americans were known for their patriotic displays, and they had the reputation of being too full of themselves, if anything, too proud of America and the fact that they were American.
Now what is common is for every conversation on America being about how atrocious a place America is, how America is all about racism and genocide, and filled with deplorable people. It is one thing for outsiders to see America that way; it is quite another for Americans to see themselves and their country men that way. After all, they are the ones who have to live out their lives being American.

If people are brainwashed into thinking that their country is a net force for evil in the world, and that their fellow Americans are deplorable, that American greed is exploiting the world's resources beyond the point of no return, literally consuming the planet, that the earth would be even better off without them having even been born, then why not shoot themselves and each other indiscriminately?
I don't think that it is an accident that most Islamist terrorist mass murderers received this Western education, and I don't think that this type of education that people in general are receiving today and the phenomena of mass murder are unrelated.

If all that people learn in school today about their country is that it is a genocidal, racist, exploitive entity, what possible good could come out of living out one's life as an American, or allowing other Americans to live their lives out too?
Michelle Obama's oft quoted quip of having no pride in her country for most of her adult life is very revealing of the kind of attitude that I am alluding to. To live your live feeling ashamed of the corporate project you are involved in, and to have no belief that you are part of a project that is making the world a better place, indeed to believe that your life is one of exploiting the earth's resources and lived out on stolen land, makes death a rational, even a moral choice.

Faith in Jesus is the antidote to this kind of faithless existence, that we have been educated into; nay even brainwashed into believing.

 

[Armoured]

At least the founding fathers all believed in God and included Him in their documents, made the Bible the only text in school, universities begun and led by ministers, etc. And they knew first-hand what tyranny is. The documents are to LIMIT government, not the people.

I personally do not believe that one guy could do all that shooting. He was quite a drinker, and a bump-stock really wracks your shoulder. He also didn't plan on ending his life there, according to a note they found... and the some 200 bullet holes in the double doors proves that. He didn't commit suicide imo.

We need to reach people for God. Time is short. Young people are disillusioned and "brain washed" by lack of proper education... and many churches are social gospel not Bible doctrines...real hymns of verses are out the window and replaced with rinse and repeat choruses... time is short... a major fix just won't occur imo... we need to each win one!

If the key to all this where "Bibles in schools" and so on, we'd expect to see a lot more of these mass shootings in comparable non-Christian majority countries, but we don't.

It's really pretty simple, gun violence in America is a direct function of the ubiquity and lack of sensible regulation of, guns.

 

[drjean]

Everyone who uses a firearm to commit a crime has broken the laws we have. No amount of laws will stop those people except if you restrict good citizens from firearms, then evil will still have them and continue to slaughter good people. The majority of our firearm deaths are suicides, btw... and much of the other is gang related such as in Chicago where NO FIREARMS are allowed at all. Many of the shootings have also occurred in "no firearm zones" and there is no one there armed to stop the evil one!

Many people today call themselves Christians but aren't... they think because they aren't Jewish or muslim or atheist that they are automatically "Christian" perhaps... it takes the indwelling of the Spirit to truly change a person.

Yes, the USA is not the country it used to be... believers, not realizing how evil people can be, have allowed prayer and God to be removed from just about everywhere, and they have been taught by editted textbooks incorrect "history" and made to think we are evil for saving lives around the world. Those text books are being published and editted by muslims, by the way...who have also inserted their own history, false history, into America's past!

Anyone who thinks the shootings like Vegas are caused by firearms is sadly, dangerously misled. This is a battle of good versus evil, satan against God. I own firearms and not once has one of them jumped up and shot someone. It takes an evil person to do that. THEREIN is the problem, people need GOD.

 

[Tanj]

Everyone who uses a firearm to commit a crime has broken the laws we have. No amount of laws will stop those people except if you restrict good citizens from firearms, then evil will still have them and continue to slaughter good people. The majority of our firearm deaths are suicides, btw... and much of the other is gang related such as in Chicago where NO FIREARMS are allowed at all. Many of the shootings have also occurred in "no firearm zones" and there is no one there armed to stop the evil one!

Many people today call themselves Christians but aren't... they think because they aren't Jewish or muslim or atheist that they are automatically "Christian" perhaps... it takes the indwelling of the Spirit to truly change a person.

Yes, the USA is not the country it used to be... believers, not realizing how evil people can be, have allowed prayer and God to be removed from just about everywhere, and they have been taught by editted textbooks incorrect "history" and made to think we are evil for saving lives around the world. Those text books are being published and editted by muslims, by the way...who have also inserted their own history, false history, into America's past!

Anyone who thinks the shootings like Vegas are caused by firearms is sadly, dangerously misled. This is a battle of good versus evil, satan against God. I own firearms and not once has one of them jumped up and shot someone. It takes an evil person to do that. THEREIN is the problem, people need GOD.

For the 300th time, most other Western countries are far less religious and Christian than the US and every one of them has less gun crime.

also, while I am here:

Those text books are being published and editted by muslims, by the way...who have also inserted their own history, false history, into America's past!

My first response was to laugh....but I could be wrong. Got any evidence to back this assertion?

 

[Zoii]

Young people are disillusioned and "brain washed" by lack of proper education... and many churches are social gospel not Bible doctrines...




I think that it is very possible that disillusionment has become a part of a Western education. Availability of guns haven't changed much in the last 50 years in America. People have always had access to guns in America, but fifty years ago, these kinds of shootings were not common occurrences. It was not as if there weren't murders, but they were not indiscriminate. They were passionate and personal, all about people using violence to satiate their appetites, or revenge and conquest.
America is a different kind of place now. It once would have been inconceivable for anyone on the outside of America to see masses of Americans on TV shaking their fist at the flag, or otherwise disrespecting it, and being cheered on by American elites, for example. That world simply did not exist fifty years ago. Americans were known for their patriotic displays, and they had the reputation of being too full of themselves, if anything, too proud of America and the fact that they were American.
Now what is common is for every conversation on America being about how atrocious a place America is, how America is all about racism and genocide, and filled with deplorable people. It is one thing for outsiders to see America that way; it is quite another for Americans to see themselves and their country men that way. After all, they are the ones who have to live out their lives being American.

If people are brainwashed into thinking that their country is a net force for evil in the world, and that their fellow Americans are deplorable, that American greed is exploiting the world's resources beyond the point of no return, literally consuming the planet, that the earth would be even better off without them having even been born, then why not shoot themselves and each other indiscriminately?
I don't think that it is an accident that most Islamist terrorist mass murderers received this Western education, and I don't think that this type of education that people in general are receiving today and the phenomena of mass murder are unrelated.

If all that people learn in school today about their country is that it is a genocidal, racist, exploitive entity, what possible good could come out of living out one's life as an American, or allowing other Americans to live their lives out too?
Michelle Obama's oft quoted quip of having no pride in her country for most of her adult life is very revealing of the kind of attitude that I am alluding to. To live your live feeling ashamed of the corporate project you are involved in, and to have no belief that you are part of a project that is making the world a better place, indeed to believe that your life is one of exploiting the earth's resources and lived out on stolen land, makes death a rational, even a moral choice.

Faith in Jesus is the antidote to this kind of faithless existence, that we have been educated into; nay even brainwashed into believing.

Well I'm young and I don't think I'm disillusioned. You think it was a safer world back 50 yrs ago in the USA... Maybe that's because you weren't black and could go to school and vote..... Maybe you think organised crime didn't exist then, or kids weren't being raped by their priests... Maybe you weren't aware of the cocaine wars or the level of deaths associated with domestic violence that was all neatly hidden. And 50 years ago unprecedented numbers of young people marched the streets burning the US flag In protest of the Vietnam war and the chemical warfare unleashed on it and Cambodia.

So.... Now I'm the young person. I believe we are more sensitive to our world than previous generations. It was your generation who got nuclear weapons up, built up these ridiculous weapon stocks, and to top it off got us into this mess of climate change. It's my generation that has to deal with it.

 

[Zoii]

Everyone who uses a firearm to commit a crime has broken the laws we have. No amount of laws will stop those people except if you restrict good citizens from firearms, then evil will still have them and continue to slaughter good people. The majority of our firearm deaths are suicides, btw... and much of the other is gang related such as in Chicago where NO FIREARMS are allowed at all. Many of the shootings have also occurred in "no firearm zones" and there is no one there armed to stop the evil one!

Many people today call themselves Christians but aren't... they think because they aren't Jewish or muslim or atheist that they are automatically "Christian" perhaps... it takes the indwelling of the Spirit to truly change a person.

Yes, the USA is not the country it used to be... believers, not realizing how evil people can be, have allowed prayer and God to be removed from just about everywhere, and they have been taught by editted textbooks incorrect "history" and made to think we are evil for saving lives around the world. Those text books are being published and editted by muslims, by the way...who have also inserted their own history, false history, into America's past!

Anyone who thinks the shootings like Vegas are caused by firearms is sadly, dangerously misled. This is a battle of good versus evil, satan against God. I own firearms and not once has one of them jumped up and shot someone. It takes an evil person to do that. THEREIN is the problem, people need GOD.

Your argument is gun control is bad because it takes guns from Good people. More guns provides a safety net for people... In terms of gunshot murders, how's that theory working out in the USA?