What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

[Meowzltov]

The resurrection happened before sunset on the Sabbath. Exactly 3 days and 3 nights after he was put into the tomb. He was gone before anyone showed up to look. If Mary and Martha had waited until Monday to visit, he still would have been gone.

I disagree. I know this view is popular with a miniscule minority, but I go with the standard view that Christ was risen Sunday morning. It is the only view to gel with the scriptures.

Mark 16:1,2 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb.
Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

 

[Lulav]

I disagree. I know this view is popular with a miniscule minority, but I go with the standard view that Christ was risen Sunday morning. It is the only view to gel with the scriptures.

Mark 16:1,2 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb.
Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

I guess it depends on which version you like

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

I go with 'he was found to be risen early on the first day of the week. Being Shabbat they would not have been able to check until after Shabbat was over thus it would not be hard to imagine him arising beforehand since he was already gone when they got there.

 

[Meowzltov]

I guess it depends on which version you like

In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

I go with 'he was found to be risen early on the first day of the week. Being Shabbat they would not have been able to check until after Shabbat was over thus it would not be hard to imagine him arising beforehand since he was already gone when they got there.

So we agree. Awesome!

 

[pat34lee]

I disagree. I know this view is popular with a miniscule minority, but I go with the standard view that Christ was risen Sunday morning. It is the only view to gel with the scriptures.

Actually, a Sunday morning resurrection makes Yeshua a liar.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

This is the problem with churches and theology. They are wrong almost as often as they are correct. Why? Because that is how the church teaches.

As I said, you can't be Catholic and Torah observant, because they are almost polar opposites. The last answer below is wrong, and a lie.

Quote << In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her!
—Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50. >>
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-re...6/catholic-church-admits-they-made-the-change

 

[ContraMundum]

7 On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.

I've always looked at this as a Havdallah service run amok. The clues are all there.

The first day of the week starts at sundown right after Shabbat ends. Paul talks til midnight, people fall asleep, so if sundown were say 6pm he was going on and on for six hours, else-wise if you are looking at it in Roman time he would have been speaking for 24 hours+. Then there's this

8 There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.

Indicating that the Shabbat was just over and now lamps can be lit

Then in verse 11 After talking until daylight, he left.

So Paul was preaching for about 9 hours, a looooooooooooooong havdallah service but not a worship service by any stretch.

A lot of assumption and reading between the lines here. It's really a no-brainer that the Apostles met on the first day of the week - and every other day. We know the first day of the week was special to the ancients because an earlier account than Luke's tells us that they took their offerings on that day (1 Cor. 16:2)

I think Sabbath keepers tend to read into the text a little too much to find what they need to. By annulling (through assertion and speculation) any notion that there was worship on any day other than the Sabbath, one has to impress upon the text words that aren't there.

We know from the early church (prior to the Councils and the canonization of the scriptures) that they met on Sunday as well as other days. The tradition was there from the start- every day is a valid day of worship, Sunday given special significance because of the resurrection and the didactic character of its symbolic link to creation. It's not that complicated.

The whole Sabbath vs. Sunday dispute is actually a false dilemma created by modernist people with nothing better to do than to be annoying. It's really only important to people with religious OCD.

The big difference here is really basic: the first believers didn't get on the internet to work out what they were supposed to believe, and then spend years agonizing on it. They acted first with what they were given, and their beliefs were later committed to writing.

The first believers met all the time- Sunday was special, but not exclusive of any other day including the Sabbath. Gentile Sabbath keepers want it all one way, trying to abolish centuries of faithful living in daily worship in favor of one service per week (and knowing Christian Sabbatarians, a very boring, lifeless and suppressed one at that.) That to me seems rather demonic.

 

[ContraMundum]

Nope. It looks like something someone who has no familiarity with scriptures would write.

In other words, very familiar to what I'm seeing on this thread. I nailed it.

 

[ContraMundum]

Actually, a Sunday morning resurrection makes Yeshua a liar.

Oh goodness, Pat, that's just awful! Dreadful. Horrid. Of the Devil.

"Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils". Mk 16:9

"Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them." Lk. 24:1

ETC.

You have to do a lot of grammar gymnastics (not beyond revisionists like yourself of course) to annul and alter plain and simple verses like that. Go ahead, slice and dice and carve and serve up your interpretation of the Bible, I'll keep it plain and simple.

 

[ContraMundum]

Nonsense. I keep Torah, and I'm a Catholic. There is no disconnect at all. I am kosher, I keep shabbat, and I observe the holy days. I do all of that as well as do all my Catholic obligations and holidays. Shabbat on Saturday, Mass on Sunday, just like in Acts 20. No problem.

Pat is throwing up some pretty surreal leaps of logic. People far more qualified than anyone on this forum have noted that being a Kosher Catholic is possible, including the late Jewish Cardinal Jean-Marie Lustiger who wrote beautifully on the subject and was more of an authority than Gentile internet judges.

Stay kosher OH!

 

[Meowzltov]

Actually, a Sunday morning resurrection makes Yeshua a liar.

A sabbath resurrection makes scripture a lie. I notice you did not deal with the scriptures that said Jesus resurrected on the first day of the week.

 

[Meowzltov]

As I said, you can't be Catholic and Torah observant, because they are almost polar opposites. The last answer below is wrong, and a lie.

Quote << In the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, we read:

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?
A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea, (AD 336) transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday….
Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.
Q. By what authority did the Church substitute Sunday for Saturday?
A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday by the plenitude of that divine power which Jesus Christ bestowed upon her!
—Rev. Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., (1946), p. 50. >>
http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-re...6/catholic-church-admits-they-made-the-change

Nothing in your quote from the catechism prohibits the keeping of the sabbath. As I've noted on many occasions, Rome is firmly behind Hebrew Catholics keeping of Jewish law. My bishop and parish priest support me in the keeping of Torah. Say what you will; you are clearly mistaken.

Hebrew Catholics (In modern Israeli Hebrewעברים קתולים Ivrím Qatholím) are a movement of Jews converted to the faith of the Catholic Church and Catholics of non-Jewish origin who choose to keep Mosaic traditions in light of Catholic doctrine....The movement is not a sectarian group in the Catholic Church, nor a schismatic movement outside it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics

Catholic site: http://www.hebrewcatholic.net/

 

[Meowzltov]

Stay kosher OH!

Will do!!! Besides, what else can I do with two sets of dishes.

 

[Ken Rank]

Actually, a Sunday morning resurrection makes Yeshua a liar.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Respectfully Pat, I don't agree with you. Before I share my thoughts, I want to point out that "3 days" or "3 days and nights" in the Hebraic mind is not 72 hours or 3 full days and 3 full nights... it can be ANY PART of three consecutive days and nights. So, Yeshua died on Passover, the 14th of Nisan. It is not a Sabbath, it is a preparation day. He had to be taken down before the end of the day because the Sabbath was about to begin. However, this was not the weekly Sabbath, this would be the first night of Unleavened Bread (ULB). When the sun went down the day ended (Passover, the 14th) and the new day began, the 15th, the first night of ULB. He was dead 3 days and nights...

Thursday, 3:00PM, Nisan 14, Passover - Death and Day 1
Thursday night, Nisan 15, first night of ULB and an annual Sabbath - Night 1
Friday, Nisan 15, first day of ULB - Day 2
Friday night, Nisan 16 - second night of ULB, begin weekly Sabbath - Night 2
Saturday, Nisan 16, Sabbath day - Day 3

Saturday night, Nisan 17, end of weekly Sabbath begin counting of weekly Sabbaths leading to Shavuot/Pentecost, Night 3

He has to have risen BEFORE sunrise or Day 4 would have begun. And that is what we see here...

Matthew 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre (Young's Literal)

Eve of the sabbaths - Idiomatic, "eve of" is the word "opse" which means "after" or "at the end of," but the word is not constrained to time as we think in the west. That is why Strong's adds, "by extension after the close of the day." Since the day in question "closed" at sunset on Saturday night... then this part of the verse is saying, "After sunset Saturday night." Note the plural Sabbaths... because there were two of them, the first night of ULB and the weekly Sabbath.

Toward the first of the sabbaths - What happens, according to the bible, on the day after the weekly sabbath of ULB? You begin the count of weeks, the count of sabbaths, toward Shavuot/Pentecost. So this part of the verse is saying, "toward the first counted weeks toward shavuot."

So, at dawn... sunrise... the tomb was found empty. After the weekly Sabbath ended at sunset on Saturday night but BEFORE sunrise on what we call Sunday morning, the resurrection occurred. There is no other way to count this and get parts of three consecutive says and nights in WHILE still remaining in harmony with Matthew 28:1. He died around 3:00PM on Thursday, and he was resurrected before sunrise on what we call Sunday.

 

[pat34lee]

Oh goodness, Pat, that's just awful! Dreadful. Horrid. Of the Devil.

I'm glad you agree.

"Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils". Mk 16:9

Remember there is no punctuation in Hebrew.

Now, after Jesus had risen, on the first day of the week he appeared...

"Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them." Lk. 24:1

They did not visit the grave on Sabbath, part of the rules, you know. When they got there, he was long gone.

You have to do a lot of grammar gymnastics (not beyond revisionists like yourself of course) to annul and alter plain and simple verses like that. Go ahead, slice and dice and carve and serve up your interpretation of the Bible, I'll keep it plain and simple.

This goes for Ken also. Three days, or about three days could mean something other than 72 hours. Three days and three nights is pretty specific. Unless you think whoever wrote the gospels were complete morons who couldn't tell time and couldn't count past two. If he didn't raise up until Sunday morning, then he spent 3 days and 4 nights in the grave.

 

[pat34lee]

Mark 16:1,2 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb.

They arrived Sunday and he was gone already. That means he could have risen any time before then, including Sabbath.

Mark 16:9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

Article Quote << Mark 16:9-20
A highly controversial point in religious circles is whether Mark 16:9-20 is actually part of Scripture. Although it appears in the King James and New King James versions, many other translations either label this section as an appendix or leave it in the footnotes, as does the Revised Standard Version of the Bible. >>
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show/sVerseID/24883/eVerseID/24883

This is like the extra Passover added in John 6:4 to lengthen Yeshua's ministry from 62 weeks to three and a half years.
http://timmchyde.com/how-long-was-jesus-ministry/

Would real scripture call Passover "a feast of the Jews" or a feast of Yahweh? Leviticus 23:4

 

[Meowzltov]

If he didn't raise up until Sunday morning, then he spent 3 days and 4 nights in the grave.

Where do you get that from? The traditional account has him dead on Friday and risen on Sunday morning. That's 3 days and 2 nights.

 

[Ken Rank]

This goes for Ken also. Three days, or about three days could mean something other than 72 hours. Three days and three nights is pretty specific. Unless you think whoever wrote the gospels were complete morons who couldn't tell time and couldn't count past two. If he didn't raise up until Sunday morning, then he spent 3 days and 4 nights in the grave.

I can show a number of places in Scripture where "3 days" means "the day after tomorrow." Today is one, tomorrow is 2, the next day is three. In our Western minds, we need specificity, the Hebraic mind does not. "3 days and nights" is ANY PART of 3 consecutive days and nights. I gave a run down factoring in when Passover was (a non-Sabbath) and included the annual and weekly Sabbath involved in that week... and he raises before sunrise on Sunday. They got to the tomb at sunrise and it was "already empty." Thursday at 3:00pm he dies, sometime after sunset Saturday night but before sunrise Sunday morning is parts of 3 consecutive days and nights.

If you see it differently that is fine... this isn't exactly a salvation issue. We all agree on three days and nights, we are just counting differently. Matthew 28:1 has Pentecost to account for and multiple Sabbaths. With the day ending at sundown in that culture... my timeline works. If yours works, great... we can let him settle it in the coming Kingdom.

 

[Meowzltov]

If you see it differently that is fine... this isn't exactly a salvation issue. We all agree on three days and nights, we are just counting differently. Matthew 28:1 has Pentecost to account for and multiple Sabbaths. With the day ending at sundown in that culture... my timeline works. If yours works, great... we can let him settle it in the coming Kingdom.

I agree that it's not a salvation issue. So long as a person agrees that Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, rose again in accordance with the scriptures, ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of the father, and will come again to judge the living and the dead... In other world, the Creed identifies the basics. All else seems rather like just children arguing among ourselves.

 

[Ken Rank]

I agree that it's not a salvation issue. So long as a person agrees that Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, rose again in accordance with the scriptures, ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of the father, and will come again to judge the living and the dead... In other world, the Creed identifies the basics. All else seems rather like just children arguing among ourselves.

He said we need to believe/trust/have faith in him and he said, "If you love me keep my commandments." He didn't add all the details, which are important, but are they going to cause one not to be redeemed? His work is sufficient and all knowledge we are blessed to receive comes from God anyway, which means it cannot be a source of pride nor something we hold over others. The Acts 15 letter does not mention all the things you just mentioned... and again, they are important, but the first steps are ALL heart related and His work. We are called to study, learn, grow... but that is after we become His.

 

[Meowzltov]

The Acts 15 letter does not mention all the things you just mentioned

That's because the Council of Jerusalem addresses what practices are necessary, not what beliefs are necessary.

 

[Ken Rank]

That's because the Council of Jerusalem addresses what practices are necessary, not what beliefs are necessary.

What practice what we believe. I refrain from pork, hence, I believe pork is not food. The Jerusalem Council gave a new believer 4 items that set them apart from their ex-pagan brethren and then said, "Moses is read in the synagogues each Sabbath." The point was, "Start here and go learn the rest." Still.... any knowledge and understanding comes from the Spirit who teaches all things... or doesn't He? I think He does, therefore, I cannot boast in my understanding or use it to determine who can or cannot belong. A new born babe on the breast knows nothing compared to the mature adult who eats steak.