What do Messianics consider themselves a sect of?

[Lulav]

I am not denying anything. I have no problem with Messianic Synagogues, I was just drawing a distinction between Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots. Please refrain from stuff like, "gentile preeminence" as that is not edifying. We don't know each other, I have no axe to grind... I am here to share what I have been blessed to understand while gleaning from others in areas where I am weak... nothing more.

I answered to this part of your statement:

You put Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots in the same ( ) as if they are the same thing, they are not. Messianic Judaism is made up of predominately Jews who believe Yeshua is messiah and until recently (and even now this is limited) no non-Jew was allowed a position of authority in their congregations. In fact, there are still some MJ congregations (albeit few at this point) that don't even invite the non-Jew to oneg (meal) after Sabbath services.

You come into a MJ forum and make derogatory posts about us, are we not to have a knee-jerk reaction? especially since you comments are false.

1. The majority ethnic make up of most MJ congregations is Gentile
2. Many do allow Gentiles to take up positions such as Shamashin or deacon, to the extent that the overall 'flavor' is more Christian than Jewish.
3. I have never heard of any MJ congregation that doesn't invite to oneg (and yes we understand what that is here), maybe to newbies coming in to not bring food, but I have found the opposite to the extent that I've found turkey meatballs in the kitchen that had pork in them.

Maybe it might be best to come in and introduce yourself and get to know the gang here before you start defining us?

 

[Ken Rank]

You come into a MJ forum and make derogatory posts about us, are we not to have a knee-jerk reaction? especially since you comments are false.

1. The majority ethnic make up of most MJ congregations is Gentile
2. Many do allow Gentiles to take up positions such as Shamashin or deacon, to the extent that the overall 'flavor' is more Christian than Jewish.
3. I have never heard of any MJ congregation that doesn't invite to oneg (and yes we understand what that is here), maybe to newbies coming in to not bring food, but I have found the opposite to the extent that I've found turkey meatballs in the kitchen that had pork in them.

Maybe it might be best to come in and introduce yourself and get to know the gang here before you start defining us?

Not in the least bit. I have been in these MJ/HRM circles for 20 years now. I didn't make a derogatory post, I stated fact. There are >>SOME<< MJ congregations that are happy to take the money of an alleged gentile but won't let them enjoy oneg! Those SAME MJ congregations, which AGAIN amount to SOME of them... wouldn't allow a gentile to speak if God came personally and told them to allow it (kind of the whole Peter/Cornelius saga all over again).

In any event, being an elder in a congregation, being a conference speaker.... when I define you I am defining me because we are part of the same family. We have some beliefs that differ... but doctrine isn't the litmus test, fruit is. I shared a thought as pertaining to the OP so that the available perspective base was wider... and that is it. I had no foul intentions toward anyone!

I will add this much... in my 20 years I have developed some very deep and family like relationships with Orthodox Jews... the only Jews that have had any issue with me at all, are Messianic Jews. I know why that is... but I won't share it openly.

That said... I will just leave "your" forum ok... it isn't like I don't have a full enough plate anyway.

Brakhot!
Ken

 

[Lulav]

Not in the least bit. I have been in these MJ/HRM circles for 20 years now. I didn't make a derogatory post, I stated fact. There are >>SOME<< MJ congregations that are happy to take the money of an alleged gentile but won't let them enjoy oneg! Those SAME MJ congregations, which AGAIN amount to SOME of them... wouldn't allow a gentile to speak if God came personally and told them to allow it (kind of the whole Peter/Cornelius saga all over again).

In any event, being an elder in a congregation, being a conference speaker.... when I define you I am defining me because we are part of the same family. We have some beliefs that differ... but doctrine isn't the litmus test, fruit is. I shared a thought as pertaining to the OP so that the available perspective base was wider... and that is it. I had no foul intentions toward anyone!

I will add this much... in my 20 years I have developed some very deep and family like relationships with Orthodox Jews... the only Jews that have had any issue with me at all, are Messianic Jews. I know why that is... but I won't share it openly.

That said... I will just leave "your" forum ok... it isn't like I don't have a full enough plate anyway.

Brakhot!
Ken

We aren't mind readers here Ken, and we are a target forum for those who hate us purely because we are Messianic. You did not choose that as your faith instead choose Non-denom which was mis-leading. You didn't read the whole thread but wanted to answer the question, not understanding the dynamics of this forum or what we see here and fight to have it on a daily basis.

It sounds to me like you have had a bad experience in the movement even though you are in a place of position now and I see that coming through your posts. I am sorry that has happened but in reality in one form or another it happens to us all. The promotion of one new man only works on so many levels but in reality not as it should be because each has baggage they come with and it is hard to drop it.

You must understand that when someone comes out of left field and starts answering questions posed to the MJ forum members it is taken as a red flag and because of past experience some of us get our hackles up. But I still think that your definition is not edifying in this venue, it actually sounded like someone from one of the other forums on here that just likes to bad mouth us. I hope you can understand this, it is not a rejection of you but of your posting, which on some level may be true, would be used against us and we have enough of that here already.

 

[Meowzltov]

1. The majority ethnic make up of most MJ congregations is Gentile

In general, yes. However, there are branches of MJ that he is describing accurately. Maybe he is only familiar with those.

 

[Ken Rank]

We aren't mind readers here Ken, and we are a target forum for those who hate us purely because we are Messianic. You did not choose that as your faith instead choose Non-denom which was mis-leading. You didn't read the whole thread but wanted to answer the question, not understanding the dynamics of this forum or what we see here and fight to have it on a daily basis.

It sounds to me like you have had a bad experience in the movement even though you are in a place of position now and I see that coming through your posts. I am sorry that has happened but in reality in one form or another it happens to us all. The promotion of one new man only works on so many levels but in reality not as it should be because each has baggage they come with and it is hard to drop it.

You must understand that when someone comes out of left field and starts answering questions posed to the MJ forum members it is taken as a red flag and because of past experience some of us get our hackles up. But I still think that your definition is not edifying in this venue, it actually sounded like someone from one of the other forums on here that just likes to bad mouth us. I hope you can understand this, it is not a rejection of you but of your posting, which on some level may be true, would be used against us and we have enough of that here already.

I appreciate the tone of your response. No, I have not had bad experiences in general, within this movement. The ministry I have been entrusted with is one of bridge building not bridge burning. I understand we are but small pieces of a much larger picture and it is imperative that we learn to function as one body despite perhaps not always seeing eye to eye on doctrinal issues. The days of theological urinating matches are over for me... I have little patience anymore for those who cause strife among the brethren.

Now, to the "non-denom" status. I don't play the word games that many in this movement play. For example, understanding that by definition a Christian is one who belongs to the anointed one, I don't really have any problem with that label. I prefer none... if somebody asks I might answer Christian, or Messianic, or Hebrew Rooted... depending on who I am talking to. The truth is, I don't care I just seek to communicate so I speak on the level people are on. As already stated, I am an elder and teacher at a congregation called Beit Minorah in Winchester, KY. Still, I would say that qualifies as no denomination but still part of the faith. There was no intent to deceive... I guess it is just me tired of the word games in this movement and... I didn't join this forum even knowing there was a "messianic section."

Shalom.
Ken

 

[pat34lee]

I appreciate the tone of your response. No, I have not had bad experiences in general, within this movement. The ministry I have been entrusted with is one of bridge building not bridge burning.

Two things came to mind as I read this post. Bridges can be helpful, but they should be one-way. When we are told "Come out of her", that does not mean keep going back.

Unity is a secondary consideration to truth. Accepting less is a compromise of the faith. If that means no more than five or ten people in a fellowship, so be it.

 

[Ken Rank]

Two things came to mind as I read this post. Bridges can be helpful, but they should be one-way. When we are told "Come out of her", that does not mean keep going back.

Unity is a secondary consideration to truth. Accepting less is a compromise of the faith. If that means no more than five or ten people in a fellowship, so be it.

I can appreciate that but we also have to recognize that we do not operate on our timetable, but rather, His. When somebody truly grasps a truth and is then capable of walking in it is different with each individual. God draws a man unto Himself (John 6:44) and thus we are just tools. That said, no... we do not condone sin or bad behavior and no, we don't go back and forth. But, if I have to cross a bridge without taking part in their sin, to show them a path back, I will. I think Yeshua set that precedent when he went into the homes of sinners and ate with them. He didn't take part in any sin, but he did cross to their side to minister and call them to teshuvah... return.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Meowzltov]

Unity is a secondary consideration to truth. Accepting less is a compromise of the faith. If that means no more than five or ten people in a fellowship, so be it.

In necessariis unitas, in dubiis libertas, in omnibus caritas
It means, In necessary things unity, in doubtful things liberty, and in all things charity.

 

[pat34lee]

I can appreciate that but we also have to recognize that we do not operate on our timetable, but rather, His. When somebody truly grasps a truth and is then capable of walking in it is different with each individual. God draws a man unto Himself (John 6:44) and thus we are just tools. That said, no... we do not condone sin or bad behavior and no, we don't go back and forth. But, if I have to cross a bridge without taking part in their sin, to show them a path back, I will. I think Yeshua set that precedent when he went into the homes of sinners and ate with them. He didn't take part in any sin, but he did cross to their side to minister and call them to teshuvah... return.

Blessings.
Ken

I can appreciate that but we also have to recognize that we do not operate on our timetable, but rather, His. When somebody truly grasps a truth and is then capable of walking in it is different with each individual. God draws a man unto Himself (John 6:44) and thus we are just tools. That said, no... we do not condone sin or bad behavior and no, we don't go back and forth. But, if I have to cross a bridge without taking part in their sin, to show them a path back, I will. I think Yeshua set that precedent when he went into the homes of sinners and ate with them. He didn't take part in any sin, but he did cross to their side to minister and call them to teshuvah... return.

Blessings.
Ken

I won't argue, just to warn that Yeshua did not sin. We can be drawn backward instead of bringing others forward.

We are responsible for getting the word out, not for people's decisions what they do with it. Some will always choose to refuse it.

 

[Ken Rank]

I won't argue, just to warn that Yeshua did not sin. We can be drawn backward instead of bringing others forward.

We are responsible for getting the word out, not for people's decisions what they do with it. Some will always choose to refuse it.

Not sure where you would get the idea that I would think Messiah sinned... that would sort of disqualify him. He DID go into the homes of sinners... that is a fact Pat. What he didn't do was sin... therefore, from that I understand that we can indeed go to those in sin to minister while not taking part in their sin nor condoning it.

My view of the Great Commission is probably not what you are used to. If you care, I can share it, otherwise, no problem.

Blessings.
Ken

 

[Meowzltov]

My view of the Great Commission is probably not what you are used to. If you care, I can share it, otherwise, no problem.

If you can keep it short and not write a book, I'd like to know what your ideas are.

 

[Lulav]

Not sure where you would get the idea that I would think Messiah sinned... that would sort of disqualify him. He DID go into the homes of sinners... that is a fact Pat. What he didn't do was sin... therefore, from that I understand that we can indeed go to those in sin to minister while not taking part in their sin nor condoning it.

My view of the Great Commission is probably not what you are used to. If you care, I can share it, otherwise, no problem.

Blessings.
Ken

Christians love to say that to excuse things like going to a Hooters for bible study. Yeah right.

If Yeshua was the only sinless one (let's leave Mary out of this) then that means everyone else was a sinner. People act like Yeshua was trolling the back alleys. He went in to those the Pharisees called sinners like Matthew because he was a tax collector, Zacchaeus comes to mind too.

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation

 

[Ken Rank]

If you can keep it short and not write a book, I'd like to know what your ideas are.

Sure... the "Go!" sounds like a command in English, but in the Greek it is a participle (going) and it is in passive form. So instead of GO! it is more like, "As you are going." In other words, it is a call to live your life in such a way that the world around us can see the Lord in us... and when they do and when God uses that to draw them unto Himself (John 6:44)... we then have a willing ear that desires to hear and then we can do what IS in command form, "Teach!" Until then, giving answers to questions that are not being asked... only fall on deaf ears. One must be seeking, or they won't find.

 

[Ken Rank]

Christians love to say that to excuse things like going to a Hooters for bible study. Yeah right.

If Yeshua was the only sinless one (let's leave Mary out of this) then that means everyone else was a sinner. People act like Yeshua was trolling the back alleys. He went in to those the Pharisees called sinners like Matthew because he was a tax collector, Zacchaeus comes to mind too.

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation

No doubt, but they were walking outside the will and character of God. So... he went to them and extended mercy, I think we are to reflect Him and do the same. Peace!

 

[Meowzltov]

Christians love to say that to excuse things like going to a Hooters for bible study. Yeah right.

ROTFL! Just when I thought CF was getting too hot and heavy to be fun any more....

 

[jerry kelso]

I was reading your post and agreeing with it, but it got so long that I gave up.

open heart,
Sorry, I got so long I'll try to be a little shorter next time. By the way the name I forgot is Lola Lovitt if I recall right.
Hebrew catholic is pretty interesting and knowing the history and the prophetic aspects of Israel's earthly calling is helpful. I do understand there are many beliefs out there whether it is jews or gentiles. Jerry kelso

 

[yonah_mishael]

Sure... the "Go!" sounds like a command in English, but in the Greek it is a participle (going) and it is in passive form. So instead of GO! it is more like, "As you are going." In other words, it is a call to live your life in such a way that the world around us can see the Lord in us... and when they do and when God uses that to draw them unto Himself (John 6:44)... we then have a willing ear that desires to hear and then we can do what IS in command form, "Teach!" Until then, giving answers to questions that are not being asked... only fall on deaf ears. One must be seeking, or they won't find.

Not really, though. Circumstantial participles attached to imperatives take on an imperative force (see here). It should most certainly be "go and make disciples" and not just "when you have gone forth, make disciples of all nations."

 

[Ken Rank]

Not really, though. Circumstantial participles attached to imperatives take on an imperative force (see here). It should most certainly be "go and make disciples" and not just "when you have gone forth, make disciples of all nations."

Well, I admit Yonah I a not a Greek scholar. I read Hebrew and obviously am fluent in English. However, the gentleman who teaches me Hebrew is also a teacher of Koine Greek (as well as general semiotics and linguistic classes) and I have another friend who writes Koine Greek curriculum for seminaries and other learning institutions world wide. Both are positive it is a passive participle, going.

I would also factor in the true meaning, or should I say, original meaning, of heresy. Today the word is tied purely to agreement, or the lack thereof. However, both Thayer and Liddel-Scott define the Greek hairesis as "to storm a city; to take by force." The idea of disagreement is contextually within the word as one doesn't storm a city filled with the like-minded. But the overall basis for the word is force, manipulation... in biblical terms, the idea of forcing doctrine (whether good or bad) on another. One must seek to hear, ask questions to hear answers and if we have to force somebody who is not seeking to see something as we see it, we are acting as heretics. One might say the ones being beheaded or burned at the stake were not the heretics, rather, the ones lighting the matches and swinging the axes, were.

What does this have to do with the great commission? If the call is to go and MAKE THEM like us, then the call is to go and be a heretic. If the call is to LIVE in a manner that reflects the light of the Lord in us and through that people are drawn and desire to learn, then we can make disciples because we then have a willing ear that desires to hear.

That's how I see this all... if you see it another way, that's fine brother!

Blessings.
Ken

 

[yonah_mishael]

Well, I admit Yonah I a not a Greek scholar. I read Hebrew and obviously am fluent in English. However, the gentleman who teaches me Hebrew is also a teacher of Koine Greek (as well as general semiotics and linguistic classes) and I have another friend who writes Koine Greek curriculum for seminaries and other learning institutions world wide. Both are positive it is a passive participle, going.

I would also factor in the true meaning, or should I say, original meaning, of heresy. Today the word is tied purely to agreement, or the lack thereof. However, both Thayer and Liddel-Scott define the Greek hairesis as "to storm a city; to take by force." The idea of disagreement is contextually within the word as one doesn't storm a city filled with the like-minded. But the overall basis for the word is force, manipulation... in biblical terms, the idea of forcing doctrine (whether good or bad) on another. One must seek to hear, ask questions to hear answers and if we have to force somebody who is not seeking to see something as we see it, we are acting as heretics. One might say the ones being beheaded or burned at the stake were not the heretics, rather, the ones lighting the matches and swinging the axes, were.

What does this have to do with the great commission? If the call is to go and MAKE THEM like us, then the call is to go and be a heretic. If the call is to LIVE in a manner that reflects the light of the Lord in us and through that people are drawn and desire to learn, then we can make disciples because we then have a willing ear that desires to hear.

That's how I see this all... if you see it another way, that's fine brother!

Blessings.
Ken

Oh, it's certainly a participle. However, the force of the participle changes when it is attached to an imperative. If I tell you, "having sat down, eat your meal," I mean "sit down and eat your meal." The participle takes the force of the imperative. That's how it works in Greek.

I can understand why you would want to see it as a "make disciples as you go along" type of thing. That would be an interesting take on it, but that's not what the Greek really means.

Anyway, I can't believe how little I've slept in the past two days. I really MUST fall asleep or I'm going to regret it. I'm supposed to be going to Coney Island this afternoon, and I'm gonna be passed out on the rides!!

 

[Ken Rank]

Oh, it's certainly a participle. However, the force of the participle changes when it is attached to an imperative. If I tell you, "having sat down, eat your meal," I mean "sit down and eat your meal." The participle takes the force of the imperative. That's how it works in Greek.

I can understand why you would want to see it as a "make disciples as you go along" type of thing. That would be an interesting take on it, but that's not what the Greek really means.

Anyway, I can't believe how little I've slept in the past two days. I really MUST fall asleep or I'm going to regret it. I'm supposed to be going to Coney Island this afternoon, and I'm gonna be passed out on the rides!!

There is still a Coney Island? I grew up on Long Beach Island in South Jersey... been up your way a few hundred times. I get your point, but... the connection to the imperative, as I understand it, adds weight but doesn't turn it into command form, the "teach" is in command form the "going" is still passive.

I have gone back and forth with this often for a while and am fairly settled where I am now based in part about what we are discussing but just as much if not more once heresy is understood and factored in. I won't manipulate or otherwise try to force anyone into anything, either they desire to learn, or they don't.

Enjoy your day and the rides!