What do Christians think of this?

[JD16]

When I read your first post, it didn't occur to me, but having recently talking to someone else who is having a lot of uneasy doubts, I began to wonder if doubt in the heart, isn't actually an indication that there is indeed a small grain of belief. Did you write your post to provoke, or were you genuinely interested in getting answers. I want to believe that it wasn't simply a provocation, and that is partly because you claim intellectual honesty.

Monna

Oh no, not at all, sorry for the misunderstanding,not trying to provoke you at all...I was referring to myself regarding intellectual honesty, should have stated it clearer. For you, you have faith and trust in God that it's the right thing for you, but in my case, it's totally lacking, therefore if I say I believe, it's only myself that I'm lying to. That's what I meant.

Regards

 

[FireDragon76]

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

That's only one possible interpretation of the Cross, but not the only one.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

The usual idea in that particular theological locus is that Jesus paid satisfaction for all our sins, past present, future. Because God's justice or honor demanded satisfaction. He loves us, but he has to love us as concrete individuals without condoning our sin. So satisfaction must be paid.

What do Christians think about this?

I think its an image that was most relevant to a particular time period and culture, but less so today. There are other ways of understanding it, such as Christus Victor (Jesus destroys evil and death by his death) or Ransom (Jesus death was paid to the forces of evil to free us from their captivity) which are far older.

I look at it as the Cross shows God's eternal desire to be with his lost people through Jesus, even if he has to die to do it. It's about love, not justice.

 

[JD16]

I've struggled with the inter-linked issues of "belief" and "doubt."

You say you must understand something to believe it. Do you understand "heat" - if so please explain it to me. Also energy. I'm serious - I have never found an intellectually satisfying explanation of what heat actually IS. We can see evidence of it, our bodies sense it, but what is it actually? "Energy" comes the answer. But what ist that? how is energy transformed into matter? I imagine that there are probably quite a few things you cannot understand, but you believe them ... how your brain works for example, or why blood clots when you cut yourself, but not inside your body, and how does the blood know which is which?

Ok, let me rephrase that, now when I think about it,... how I should have stated it was, The concept must make sense for me to understand,...understanding does not require believe....that is preferably if possible,....

Now regarding believe, definition......to have confidence in the assertions of a certain outcome , you can't be 100% sure until it happen, but you are fairly certain due to experience, or someone you could trust told you.
But even then, whatever the person you trust told you, it must be 1. possible, 2. rational,3. plausible, otherwise I would ask question until it all fits in, or I discard what I was told. That leaves experience the most reliable factor experience .........pretty much the only thing I believe, eg the sun will rise from the east tomorrow.

Faith in this context, by definition is, believing without evidence. If you told me there a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and since I have never seen it, plus of course it's absurd. I would need faith, lots of it, to believe you,........and you can bet your bottom dollar it ain't happening......

Then come facts, the granddaddy of it all, a fact that can be demonstrated beyond doubt, and stand up to any scrutiny,....as oppose to an opinion which is only limited by imagination.......If you can prove that your facts are legit, beyond doubt.....then you can claim knowledge.......


Heat, in conjunction with energy, is more commonly known as thermal heat, I could go on, but ,that is not area of our production of discussion, ask enough and eventually I would not understand certain things. On topics that interest me, I would do my research,.If not, I consulted the experts in that field,...find out what is the concen census, then decided to believe if the info is credible ......nobody knows everything.

There is so much more for us to learn, so much more to discover, science is always growing, the body of knowledge in each field is constantly on the edge and we discover and learn new stuff almost everyday
And maybe there are things that some questions that even science can't tell eventually. And thats ok, because just maybe something are beyond us. Don't have to know.

What I find ironic is that, if I try to add God into the mix, instead of the perfect fix that one who expect from such an addition,....its the exact opposite that happens,...every time. Instead of the magic glue that give you that eureka moment,....It adds complication without solving anything.

I'm not trying to provoke you - I don't know if any of this makes sense to you. I wouldn't mind you giving your thoughts or even rebuttal, because I am still exploring these things. But could the existence of a niggling doubt and questioning mind, actually be evidence of an embryo belief, that you say you want, but can't accept? Suspend the voices of judgement, cynicism and fear that you may have accumulated from previous experience - let go, and let come (to quote staff at the Presencing Institute).

Monna

I know, no worries, I'm not easily provoked, it takes a lot It makes perfect sense to me. My exact words were, I wish I could,.....meaning, it'll be nice to think that, there is someone that is looking out for you 24/7, can solve all your problems by surrendering to him and praying, and at the end of it all, you get to spend an eternity in heaven supposedly, but everyone I ask, gave me a diff answer and most have no idea what happens up there....all you have to do is believe and have faith,......thats why I wish I could, but I would either have to compartmentalise or be in a state of cognitive dissonance...and I find both option unacceptable......nothing cynical, or fearful , and no inkling of believe,...that I assure you

Regards

 

[miknik5]

Hi,

I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

What do Christians think about this?

The sin of disbelief and pride and "I don't need God's provisions I'll do what I think is right"

 

[JD16]

Most if not all of us make a distinction between head (the intellectual side of us) and "heart" (the feeling side of us). What we think and what we feel. Of course these two things are closely related; after all they are parts of us. Feelings/emotions tend to come unplanned for. Depending of what they are and how strong they are, they need to be controled and it is usually our mind or will that must do the controlling.

I, apparently like you, like to think of myself as a thinking person, a rational one. I am constantly weighing things up in my mind to make sense of them, to reach a point in understanding that is intellectually satisfying. But I find there are a whole lot of "facts" that I cannot find a satisfactory intellectual reason for, yet I "know" them to be true; I "believe" them to be true. Somebody loves me. Knowing what I am REALLY like, I find this hard to believe intellectually. That's the truth. It's a real wonder to me that there are actually people who like to have me around. So there is a truth that I experience in my heart because I see evidence (though I could explain the "why" in a variety of ways) but which I cannot fully rationalise in my head. I am not particularly lovable or even likable.

Then there are things that appear to be absolutely certain at the intellectural level, but which my "heart" simply says are not true. Without going into great detail this has happend to me in very traumatic circumstances. My head "believed" one thing, because there was NO evidence to the opposite, all available information and experience supported the head. But I received an unmistable and unshakable assurance in my heart to the opposite. The situation remained like this for over two weeks. My heart turned out to be right.


Monna

What you speak off is emotions,...you go along with what you feel,...if you're comfortable doing that, and it works for you, hey why not. Call me old school, but that to me is an uncalculated risk move with unpredictable outcome. Much better to evaluate and make the most preferable outcome. I'm not emotional person anyway.


Regards

 

[razzelflabben]

Hi,

I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

What do Christians think about this?

it goes back to the problem with sin. The consequence (notice I said consequence of sin not the punishment there is an important difference) is death. Death here is separation from God. Let's put it into an analogy...let's say that your son or daughter committed a crime that would put them in jail for a very long time. But they have young children at home and that would be detrimental to them. But what if you could take that child's place in jail so that the child could be home with his children, providing for them and loving them.

It's more complicated than that, but that analogy works for the first part of our understanding. The second part of the understanding involves a change of heart. According to scripture and every test I have seen done, when a person really believes with their heart, which is by the way the belief that "saves" us, something happens and the old sinful desires pass away. One description in scripture is the circumcision of the heart. It basically means that the old sinful desires and nature vanish and a new one is put in it's place. Scripture also talks about this when it talks about crucifying the old man. So in the above analogy it would be like your son or daughter didn't just regret what they did but are taking drastic measures to stop it from ever happening again. IOW's not just "I'm sorry" but way beyond I'm sorry. In fact, this change within is a work of the Holy Spirit and is said to be the down payment, or evidence if you will of our salvation.

As to free will, that didn't change I'm not really sure how you see that as a problem. As to what sins...all sins. But the problem is that not everyone who calls God Lord allows Him to be Lord of their Lives. It is when we choose to allow God to be Lord of our lives and thus allow Him to transform us that those sins fall away. In fact, when we do sin which does happen it is because we were not yielding to the working of God in our lives.

BTW, the teaching about intercession is because we do sometimes sin even in Christ.

 

[razzelflabben]

Its a fair question. My experience is that some Christians expect you to swallow the whole story immediately. God showed His love by sending His only Son to die on a cross for our sins.
I mean, hang on. There must be more simple ways of showing God's love. Why did he have to do this?
Only now, am I starting to appreciate the whole story which is rather complex, if you ask me. And very symbolic. It is supposed to be the greatest story ever told so don't expect to understand it fully straight away.

One great way to understand the entire thing is to go back to the OT and understand why animal sacrifices were important and how they "took away" sin. Jesus is said to be the sacrificial Lamb therefore it is a great way to understand as long as you don't allow yourself to get bound up in the legalism.

 

[razzelflabben]

I read your replies and a few thoughts came to mind.

I wonder if free will is always a good thing, surely it's better to remove some free will for the greater good, to protect that creation in some way from unnecessary suffering?

Wouldn't an all knowing God be able to invent some other system which doesn't need free will or carbon based organisms at all ... something we can't imagine which is so perfect that nothing suffers? Wouldn't an all loving God resist the urge to create life in the first place knowing there's a risk of unhappiness?

I know many people say that without suffering we wouldn't grow. That is true within the confines of our human mind. But we could have been given a different brain, one that didn't need to grow in the same way.

For example, if we were given enlightenment from day one, we could have also been given an adaption to our mind which enables us to appreciate that gift. If we were given freedom, why not make it impossible for us to mess it up! Free will isn't an argument, we were given eyes against our free will, we were given a sense of happiness against our will, so why not give us a sense of enlightenment against our will and remove all suffering. Why not remove the idea of "growing". I don't think anyone would complain!

As I see it, the universe is built with entropy at it's core which is a terrible design flaw. It means everything slightly leans towards the negative.

Also (sorry guys), if you think creation happened 6,000 years ago, what was God doing before then?

My questions are probably infuriating to you as you've no doubt heard them all before but I've not spoken to Christians about it. I deeply have not need for religion so hope you don't try and convince me, just wanted to hear your points of view that's all.

I personally find this post all over the place which makes it hard to respond to. So I will tackle the first and biggest issue as I understand your post and anything else you would like to talk to me about can be brought up again in smaller doses so that everything is covered.

God created man unique from all other creatures He had created. That unique quality...like Himself...go back to Gen. where it says that God created man in His image. This unique nature of God allows Him to have a fellowship with man unlike any other fellowship that His creation can have. In fact, scripture describes the believers or the Church big C as in all believers as the bride of Christ. IOW's in this analogy it would be the difference between a human trying to have a marriage to an otter verses having a marriage with another human being. But with that comes one important aspect of the nature of God. God by nature is good and righteous and holy and therefore man needs to be good, righteous and holy as well. This would be like some really good amazing person trying to be married to a huge tool. It doesn't really work. In fact, scripture says that righteousness and unrighteousness cannot dwell together. So if we want to "marry" ourselves to Christ we need to be righteous as He is righteous....thus free will. IOW's God isn't forcing man to "marry" Him, rather He is saying, "this is what you were made for, it will fulfill you". Man then decides.

Before we go on, there are at least 13 different ways God tries to explain His love to us. Because of this, any analogy will fall when trying to push it too far. Thus I encourage you for the sake of understanding not to fall into the trap that so many atheists do when trying to "prove" God wrong. This is just one aspect of His multifaceted Love and as such only addresses the part of the question at hand not all of the relationship we have with Christ.

 

[miknik5]

Who gives the man who decides to "marry" himself to CHRIST the WEDDING GARMENT

 

[razzelflabben]

Who gives the man who decides to "marry" himself to CHRIST the WEDDING GARMENT

Christ...it is His righteousness...but it is ours to maintain through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit

 

[miknik5]

Christ...it is His righteousness...but it is ours to maintain through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit

how can one receive that garment. And what does that garment signify?

 

[razzelflabben]

how can one receive that garment. And what does that garment signify?

One receives the garment through belief unto salvation....the garment of righteousness, that imputed righteousness another poster talked about,

Maybe we should talk about what belief leads to salvation and what salvation is "from" or "to"?

Belief unto salvation is a belief of the heart and I can get the whole list of things we are to believe if you are interested in that list. The short version is that Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, God Himself in the flesh and that His blood can cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Notice cleansing us from all unrighteousness, this is that transformation I talked about earlier.

Salvation is to be saved to eternal life, which is fellowship with God in the new heaven and new earth or also known as the new Jerusalem. It is to be saved from sin and death....sin being all sin and death being eternal separation from God. That is the thumbnail version anyway we can go into a lot more depth if you are interested.

 

[Monna]

it'll be nice to think that, there is someone that is looking out for you 24/7, can solve all your problems by surrendering to him and praying, and at the end of it all, you get to spend an eternity in heaven supposedly, but everyone I ask, gave me a diff answer and most have no idea what happens up there....all you have to do is believe and have faith

Actually, that's not the way it is. God is not a genie in a bottle who solves all our problems. Nor is he a Santa Claus that "knows who's good and who's bad" and gives presents accordingly, or responds positively to all our wish lists. He is not our slave, our employee, or lackey. God is not interested either in us becoming robots or slaves. One of our problems is that we all have misconceptions of God. What we do read in the Bible is that he wants us to become whole and mature human beings. He wants to transform our inner nature, our thinking system, so that we can think for ourselves, but when we do we come to the same conclusions as he would. You could say that he wants us to become fully human - the way he intended from the beginning. The our "minds will be transformed and we will be like Jesus."

A young person asked a missionary who had worked abroad for over 40 years "You have worked for God for over 40 years, it must be very easy to hear God's voice telling you what to do, isn't it." He replied, "No, quite the opposite. The longer I have served him, the more he seems to expect me to think for myself and make the right decisions."

You are gifted beyond measure. You don't even glimpse the potential you actually have. He wants to see you grow into that potential and become all you can be. But to do that you have to get rid of all the stuff that's dragging you down, distracting you, discouraging you, deceiving you by hiding reality behind illusory goals and pre-conceived ideas that come with our socialisation processes, submitting to rules and hiding behind them just because they're rules, however dehumanising they are. I have found myself fighting all the misconceptions I learned as a kid and young person for at least 45 years. And the "clearer" I see, the more I realise how foggy my vision is. I still have a long way to go.

And the intention is not at the end of it to spend an eternity in heaven (playing a harp and singing in a heavenly choir). That is one of the illusions many Christians and non-Christians believe. As a child you no doubt learned the Lord's prayer "... let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." God is interested in bringing the "kingdom of God" to earth - that kingdom being made up of all of his people and the kingdom will be realised to the extent that we behave like mature citizens of that kingdom. And if you read the book of Revelations and other passages, you will notice that his people will inhabit the new earth - not heaven. If there is any truth in the idea that we "die and go to heaven" that is only a temporary situation before the "new heaven and new earth" become realities.

It is sad that we are so fixated with life after death "in heaven" that we don't realise that God is interested in the here and now. One of the very interesting details of the Old Testament is that the Hebrews (the "people of Israel") were taken out of Egypt where everyone was obsessed during this life with preparing for the "afterlife." Old Egypt could very well be described as the kingdom of death, the obsession was so pervasive. But in the OT you will find very very little about life after death. God was wanting the Israelites to establish a nation that reflected his value system on earth, and be a shining example to the rest of the earth ... and even reaching out to them. There is no preaching in the OT that if you behave nicely here you will be rewarded with a place in heaven. No...it is, that if you behave as whole real humans in your society, that society will be stable, just, and durable. Being whole real humans includes the development of our spiritual selves as well, and it is in that sphere that we learn and transfer God's value systems into our daily lives and relationships. The biblical narrative is that God placed humans ON EARTH, and this is primarily where we belong.

(I expect quite a few people will not agree with this...but this is my reading of where we're at and where we're headed.)

 

[razzelflabben]

Actually, that's not the way it is. God is not a genie in a bottle who solves all our problems. Nor is he a Santa Claus that "knows who's good and who's bad" and gives presents accordingly, or responds positively to all our wish lists. He is not our slave, our employee, or lackey. God is not interested either in us becoming robots or slaves. One of our problems is that we all have misconceptions of God. What we do read in the Bible is that he wants us to become whole and mature human beings. He wants to transform our inner nature, our thinking system, so that we can think for ourselves, but when we do we come to the same conclusions as he would. You could say that he wants us to become fully human - the way he intended from the beginning. The our "minds will be transformed and we will be like Jesus."

A young person asked a missionary who had worked abroad for over 40 years "You have worked for God for over 40 years, it must be very easy to hear God's voice telling you what to do, isn't it." He replied, "No, quite the opposite. The longer I have served him, the more he seems to expect me to think for myself and make the right decisions."

You are gifted beyond measure. You don't even glimpse the potential you actually have. He wants to see you grow into that potential and become all you can be. But to do that you have to get rid of all the stuff that's dragging you down, distracting you, discouraging you, deceiving you by hiding reality behind illusory goals and pre-conceived ideas that come with our socialisation processes, submitting to rules and hiding behind them just because they're rules, however dehumanising they are. I have found myself fighting all the misconceptions I learned as a kid and young person for at least 45 years. And the "clearer" I see, the more I realise how foggy my vision is. I still have a long way to go.

And the intention is not at the end of it to spend an eternity in heaven (playing a harp and singing in a heavenly choir). That is one of the illusions many Christians and non-Christians believe. As a child you no doubt learned the Lord's prayer "... let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." God is interested in bringing the "kingdom of God" to earth - that kingdom being made up of all of his people and the kingdom will be realised to the extent that we behave like mature citizens of that kingdom. And if you read the book of Revelations and other passages, you will notice that his people will inhabit the new earth - not heaven. If there is any truth in the idea that we "die and go to heaven" that is only a temporary situation before the "new heaven and new earth" become realities.

It is sad that we are so fixated with life after death "in heaven" that we don't realise that God is interested in the here and now. One of the very interesting details of the Old Testament is that the Hebrews (the "people of Israel") were taken out of Egypt where everyone was obsessed during this life with preparing for the "afterlife." Old Egypt could very well be described as the kingdom of death, the obsession was so pervasive. But in the OT you will find very very little about life after death. God was wanting the Israelites to establish a nation that reflected his value system on earth, and be a shining example to the rest of the earth ... and even reaching out to them. There is no preaching in the OT that if you behave nicely here you will be rewarded with a place in heaven. No...it is, that if you behave as whole real humans in your society, that society will be stable, just, and durable. Being whole real humans includes the development of our spiritual selves as well, and it is in that sphere that we learn and transfer God's value systems into our daily lives and relationships. The biblical narrative is that God placed humans ON EARTH, and this is primarily where we belong.

(I expect quite a few people will not agree with this...but this is my reading of where we're at and where we're headed.)

actually if you read and study scriptures you will see that the believers that dwell in the New Jerusalem also known as heaven are there to rule...we don't know all the details of that rule, but we do know that we won't just be sitting around with harps in a la la world of euphoria.

 

[sheamiao]

Hi,

I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

What do Christians think about this?

Hi, I love your open and honey question. God gives us free will so we could choose his way. He love us and wants us to be right with him. But because Adam and Eve, we become sinful. If you look closely at a child from time to time, the selfishness, hatred toward people or don't love other people are in them. since God love us but he is also righteous so he shall destroy sin, he sent his one and only son took our sin and blame instead of killing us. If he kill us , we are destroyed totally, but if Jesus died , he can be resurrected, and who ever believes shall not perish but have eternal life. So it all began at God is love, end at belief. Does that answer your question?

 

[ldonjohn]

Thanks for replying,

What you speak of requires faith, and that I have non. I'm at peace with all that now, what I was referring to was when I was young and still living with my family, and was forced to go along. I'm here to seek understanding, not actual believe. But thank you for sharing your experience, but I guess that maybe religion is not for some of us.

You're welcome JD. The point I was & am trying to make is that God will give you the faith to believe if you will follow His call in
Jeremiah 29:13. Your will - your choice is to either accept that call or to reject it.

The truth I found when I had absolutely no faith & thought I could never believe was that a great amount of faith is not needed. Just enough faith to begin the search for truth is all that is needed for God to begin His work in your life, and if done in earnest as in Jeremiah 29:13 then the Holy Spirit will give you the ability to understand the truth of God's Word, the Bible, and He will convince you of the truth found there. Believing is not of the will of man, but is by the power of God's Holy Scriptures through the influence of the Holy Spirit. The amount of ones faith is not important, but the smallest amount of faith is believing or saving faith if that faith is in the message of the Cross, the Gospel.

I am not the one making the offer. God makes that offer to everyone, and although God wants everyone to choose Him, He will not force anyone to do so. It's a choice.

ldonjohn

 

[ldonjohn]

What I find ironic is that, if I try to add God into the mix, instead of the perfect fix that one who expect from such an addition,....its the exact opposite that happens,...every time. Instead of the magic glue that give you that eureka moment,....It adds complication without solving anything.

JD,

WOW, man you hit the nail on its head in that last paragraph. That is EXACTLY what happened to me when I added God into the mix; I found the “magic glue” and had the “eureka moment.” For me it was a “turn on the light” and “I got it” moment. I found the “evidence” that I had not seen before and was completely convinced that the “facts” were the absolute truth.

JD, do you mind if I ask how you tried to add God into the mix?”

ldonjohn

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi,

I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

What do Christians think about this?

The concept of atonement refers to concepts such as reconciliation. There are several different (and not mutually exclusive) ways of approaching the concept of the Atonement, how Christ reconciles and makes us right with God.

But generally speaking it is about how, in Christ and by what He's done, He has made peace between God and us; a peace that is broken on account of sin. As such what we have isn't sinlessness, but rather forgiveness, and the hope that even as Jesus was raised from the dead we also will be raised from the dead.

Christianity asserts that at present this world, though the good creation of God, suffers from a fundamental brokenness due to sin and death, there is death, violence, injustice, etc. Jesus' death and resurrection point to the fact that the present way things are won't last forever, but that God is healing the world by reconciling it, restoring it, and making things right--that's why we believe Jesus, how after having been raised from the dead was taken up and presently sits at the right hand of God--a figure of speech that Christ reigns presently--and will come again one day to complete what He began. His coming again is known as the Second Advent or Parousia, and it is when (in traditional Christian teaching) the dead will be raised, there will be a judgment of the living and the dead, and the restoration of all things--a "new heavens and a new earth" and a final passing away of the present age dominated by sin, violence, death, etc.

Thus it isn't this present time that is where justice resides, but in the coming age, what we call the Age or World to Come. The present age is temporal, and falling away, it is a time for the Gospel to go out through the preaching of the Church so that the message of Christ can be heard and proclaimed to all nations.

This can lead to further questions: What about those who die and never heard the Gospel? Why doesn't God just reveal Himself so it's obvious, etc. The conversation can branch out into all sorts of ways, with some questions having some answers, some with multiple answers and opinions, and some with no answers at all. But as to the specifics of your question raised here, it's this. And I'd say that what I've provided would be in agreement with the majority of Christians from across traditions and denominations; with some exceptions possibly, depending.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JD16]

Hi Idonjohn,

Sorry I must have miss this post and it took me so long to reply. To answer your question, to add God into the mix just leaves me with a whole more questions and of course some contradiction like I stated in this thread.

Regards

 

[mindlight]

Hi,

I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

What do Christians think about this?

Basically the answer, as other posters have already said, would be freewill which implies the continued ability to sin and God has not taken that away by providing a mechanism of redemption and forgiveness.

But the final solution is the Great Judgment. At that point those who are saved will all be restored to a position of perfection in which the disposition to sin is radically reduced. Those who are not saved will be removed from the picture.

Until that point there are signs of the effects of the gospel on the world. Personally for instance I had a problem with alcohol but now have not drunk alcohol for 20 years. That is a transformation that has had positive impacts on my interaction with the world. Societies and nations have also been transformed: for example the abolition of slavery and the institutionalised compassion of Western European welfare states owes a lot to Christianity. So it would not be accurate to say that Christianity had not had a positive impact