What do Christians think of this?

[d1975mon]

Hi,

I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

What do Christians think about this?

 

[Kiterius]

Hi,

I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

What do Christians think about this?

Jesus came so that all our sins could be forgiven - not so that the ability to sin would be zapped out of us. As you note, we have free will.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Well sending Jesus here doesn't change our free will so to speak. Jesus, for lack of a better analogy is basically a life jacket being throw to us while we sink in a boat. We can still choose to grab it if we want and be saved. Or ignore it and go down with the ship. Now as for why He did it. Gods love for us is beyond our understanding really. Instead of us all being hell bound, He sent Jesus so that if we chose to, we could be saved. Which I say that is true love.

As for what sins. All of them. Lust, greed, addiction, swearing, unmarried sex...etc. Yes, we do still sin and mess up. BUT the difference between us and an atheist, well our sins are paid for so we do not have to go to hell. But ONLY if we let Jesus into our heart. Sins are paid for, but He it still required. Because its not only about sins being forgiven, but about changing our lives. A new life. Hence many call it being "born again". When born again you make alot of life changes. You always fight to lead the best christian life (according to biblical rules) you can.

You will still mess up, but as a christian you will recognize what needs to change in your life and change. Where as the non-christian wouldn't really notice the sins. To them going to an orgy may be normal and they wouldn't see anything wrong with it. But as a christian you KNOW such a thing is terribly wrong and a sin.

In short. Being christian is about loving like Jesus and living like Jesus.

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Its a fair question. My experience is that some Christians expect you to swallow the whole story immediately. God showed His love by sending His only Son to die on a cross for our sins.
I mean, hang on. There must be more simple ways of showing God's love. Why did he have to do this?
Only now, am I starting to appreciate the whole story which is rather complex, if you ask me. And very symbolic. It is supposed to be the greatest story ever told so don't expect to understand it fully straight away.

 

[AvgJoe]

Hi,

I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

What do Christians think about this?

What sins did Jesus die for? All of them! 1 John 2:2(NLT): 2) He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

What we (and the Bible) mean by the phrase "Jesus died for our sins" is that all sins have a penalty. We see the same thing in the justice systems of nations--for every crime, there is a penalty. When the penalty is paid, we say that justice has been served. Our sins are rebellion against God, and they carry a weighty penalty. The penalty is death--not just physical, but spiritual as well. In physical death, our bodies are separated from our souls and spirits. In spiritual death, we are separated from God.

Jesus died for our sins in that He paid the penalty for our sins. As you point out, this does not mean we stop sinning. What it does mean is that the penalty incurred by our sins is satisfied by the payment made by Jesus Himself. By way of illustration, if you committed a crime and the penalty for that crime was $1,000,000, you could not pay it. However, if you happen to be the son of Warren Buffet, he could pay the penalty on your behalf. The penalty is still paid. The victim is still restored. The cost is still real. Yet because of the generosity and sacrifice of your father, you are not bound to pay the penalty.

So, Jesus died for our sins and paid the penalty for them out of His love and generosity, allowing us to avoid paying the penalty ourselves, if we repent and believe the gospel (Mark 1:15, John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10), placing our faith in Jesus. That’s why Jesus lived a perfect life in full obedience to the law of God in thought, word, and deed. Jesus’ mission wasn’t simply to die on the cross for our sins but also to live a life of perfect righteousness.

Through our faith in Jesus, the righteousness of Jesus is given to us. This is called “imputed” righteousness. To impute something is to ascribe or attribute something to someone. When we place our faith in Jesus, God ascribes the perfect righteousness of Jesus to our account so that we become perfect in His sight. “For our sake he made him [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Not only is Jesus' righteousness imputed to us through faith, but our sin is imputed to Jesus. That is how Jesus paid our sin debt to God. He had no sin in Himself, but our sin is imputed to Him so, as He suffers on the cross, He is suffering the just penalty that our sin deserves. By having the righteousness of Jesus imputed to us, we can be seen as sinless, as Jesus is sinless. It is not, therefore, our perfection, but His. When God looks at the Christian, He sees the holiness, perfection, and righteousness of Jesus. Therefore, we can say with confidence, “I am sinless, as Jesus is sinless.”

Also, Jesus is not merely a Messiah--He is the Messiah. He is not merely one of many good people who made sacrifices for others. That is not what the word "Messiah" means. Indeed, many people have done good things and made sacrifices for others, from Mother Theresa to many others. Yet, while people may make notable sacrifices, no one but Jesus could die for the sins of another.

All other people are only human and have their own sins to deal with. Only Jesus, the eternal Son of God who existed before the world and time began (John 1-3, 14), has the authority to die to pay the penalty for the sins of anyone else.

So, Jesus is the Messiah--the only one who could pay the penalty for the sins of the world.

 

[bling]

Hi,

I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.

As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.

But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.

What do Christians think about this?

You miss the whole point of His coming here.

Sin is not the problem and actually helps the nonbeliever in fulfilling his earthly objective and “not sinning” is not the objective. Unforgiven sin is a huge problem.

Yes, Jesus did come because we sinned (we could not and did not fulfill our earthly objective without sinning.

Our mission statement is: “To love God (and secondly others) with all our heart, soul, mind and energy” but to do that we must first obtain this very unusual Love (Godly type Love).

God has done or allowed to happen all He can to help willing individuals fulfill this earthly object with that everything including:

Satan roaming the earth, tragedies of all kinds, Christ going to the cross, hell, and sin.

 

[d1975mon]

Gods love for us is beyond our understanding really.

Then why would he need an excuse to forgive us? He should automatically forgive instead of sending his son? Seems very convoluted and odd.

 

[d1975mon]

I read your replies and a few thoughts came to mind.

I wonder if free will is always a good thing, surely it's better to remove some free will for the greater good, to protect that creation in some way from unnecessary suffering?

Wouldn't an all knowing God be able to invent some other system which doesn't need free will or carbon based organisms at all ... something we can't imagine which is so perfect that nothing suffers? Wouldn't an all loving God resist the urge to create life in the first place knowing there's a risk of unhappiness?

I know many people say that without suffering we wouldn't grow. That is true within the confines of our human mind. But we could have been given a different brain, one that didn't need to grow in the same way.

For example, if we were given enlightenment from day one, we could have also been given an adaption to our mind which enables us to appreciate that gift. If we were given freedom, why not make it impossible for us to mess it up! Free will isn't an argument, we were given eyes against our free will, we were given a sense of happiness against our will, so why not give us a sense of enlightenment against our will and remove all suffering. Why not remove the idea of "growing". I don't think anyone would complain!

As I see it, the universe is built with entropy at it's core which is a terrible design flaw. It means everything slightly leans towards the negative.

Also (sorry guys), if you think creation happened 6,000 years ago, what was God doing before then?

My questions are probably infuriating to you as you've no doubt heard them all before but I've not spoken to Christians about it. I deeply have not need for religion so hope you don't try and convince me, just wanted to hear your points of view that's all.

 

[d1975mon]

Its a fair question. My experience is that some Christians expect you to swallow the whole story immediately. God showed His love by sending His only Son to die on a cross for our sins.
I mean, hang on. There must be more simple ways of showing God's love. Why did he have to do this?
Only now, am I starting to appreciate the whole story which is rather complex, if you ask me. And very symbolic. It is supposed to be the greatest story ever told so don't expect to understand it fully straight away.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[AvgJoe]

I read your replies and a few thoughts came to mind.

I wonder if free will is always a good thing, surely it's better to remove some free will for the greater good, to protect that creation in some way from unnecessary suffering?

Wouldn't an all knowing God be able to invent some other system which doesn't need free will or carbon based organisms at all ... something we can't imagine which is so perfect that nothing suffers? Wouldn't an all loving God resist the urge to create life in the first place knowing there's a risk of unhappiness?

I know many people say that without suffering we wouldn't grow. That is true within the confines of our human mind. But we could have been given a different brain, one that didn't need to grow in the same way.

For example, if we were given enlightenment from day one, we could have also been given an adaption to our mind which enables us to appreciate that gift. If we were given freedom, why not make it impossible for us to mess it up! Free will isn't an argument, we were given eyes against our free will, we were given a sense of happiness against our will, so why not give us a sense of enlightenment against our will and remove all suffering. Why not remove the idea of "growing". I don't think anyone would complain!

So, why didn't God just make us to be robots, instead of beings with free will? Think about it! It would so much easier! We would not have feelings, tears, emotions, pride, thoughts or a will; all things that often get in the way of life. If God had only made us robots it would be so much simpler, right?

If God had only thought to make us robotic, then there would be no struggle between good and evil. Problem solved. Hello heaven!

But God in His omniscience saw ahead of time and knew that we would fail and fall and need Him. He wanted us to be able to choose Him. He wanted us to have the choice to love because He knew that love without choice isn't love at all. He gave us a free will so that we could choose to be in relationship with Him. I believe that God giving us a choice had more to do with His glory and satisfaction than it did with our liberty. After all, we were created in His image ultimately for His glory.

Doesn't the value of any good deed go up in our minds if we believe that it is done out of genuine love rather than out of an obligation or command? Of course it does! That must be how God feels about us when we choose Him.

Robotics is a popular movie theme, and in many of those kinds of movies, the robot starts out with little or no consciousness or self-awareness, but tends to evolve over time. Writers and producers can even create personalities for them and they can be "good" or "evil." In the real world, we are not quite that sophisticated, even though we keep relentlessly striving to create that perfect robot that could substitute as a person. A robot can be programmed to obey, but it cannot be programmed to love or to respond intuitively. So God chose to create people rather than robots to receive that genuine love back from us.

We know God has emotions because the Bible uses words to describe God's intense feelings about us like "desires" and "loves." He is actually pursuing us, so we must be worth having!


"You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body
and knit me together in my mother’s womb.
Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!
Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.
You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion,
as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.
You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.
How precious are your thoughts about me, O God.
They cannot be numbered!
I can’t even count them;
they outnumber the grains of sand!
And when I wake up,
you are still with me!" Psalm 139:13-18 NLT

God thinks about us. He plans for us. He loves us. Robots could never replace the uniqueness of a human being. Simpler, yes. Rewarding, no.

Also (sorry guys), if you think creation happened 6,000 years ago, what was God doing before then?

Whatever He wanted to do.

 

[d1975mon]

So, why didn't God just make us to be robots, instead of beings with free will? Think about it! It would so much easier! We would not have feelings, tears, emotions, pride, thoughts or a will; all things that often get in the way of life. If God had only made us robots it would be so much simpler, right?

If God had only thought to make us robotic, then there would be no struggle between good and evil. Problem solved. Hello heaven!

But God in His omniscience saw ahead of time and knew that we would fail and fall and need Him. He wanted us to be able to choose Him. He wanted us to have the choice to love because He knew that love without choice isn't love at all. He gave us a free will so that we could choose to be in relationship with Him. I believe that God giving us a choice had more to do with His glory and satisfaction than it did with our liberty. After all, we were created in His image ultimately for His glory.

Doesn't the value of any good deed go up in our minds if we believe that it is done out of genuine love rather than out of an obligation or command? Of course it does! That must be how God feels about us when we choose Him.

Robotics is a popular movie theme, and in many of those kinds of movies, the robot starts out with little or no consciousness or self-awareness, but tends to evolve over time. Writers and producers can even create personalities for them and they can be "good" or "evil." In the real world, we are not quite that sophisticated, even though we keep relentlessly striving to create that perfect robot that could substitute as a person. A robot can be programmed to obey, but it cannot be programmed to love or to respond intuitively. So God chose to create people rather than robots to receive that genuine love back from us.

We know God has emotions because the Bible uses words to describe God's intense feelings about us like "desires" and "loves." He is actually pursuing us, so we must be worth having!


"You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body
and knit me together in my mother’s womb.
Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex!
Your workmanship is marvelous—how well I know it.
You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion,
as I was woven together in the dark of the womb.
You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.
How precious are your thoughts about me, O God.
They cannot be numbered!
I can’t even count them;
they outnumber the grains of sand!
And when I wake up,
you are still with me!" Psalm 139:13-18 NLT

God thinks about us. He plans for us. He loves us. Robots could never replace the uniqueness of a human being. Simpler, yes. Rewarding, no.

Whatever He wanted to do.

Thanks for your reply. Whilst interesting, it does jump to the extremes. I'm not suggesting we be robots, I'm suggesting a little less free will would be kinder.

If I were to create a living thing (in this case, humans) I would feel that my act is inherently selfish, because those humans didn't ask to be created and would likely suffer. I would surely NOT give them 100% free will at the expense of happiness. I would assume they would rather slightly less free will and slightly more happiness. Not robots, but a much kinder balance.

God gave us eyes, against our will and of course we are glad about that. God gave us hands, against our will (we had no choice) and of course we are glad about that. He gave us many things against our will, so why not give us enlightenment or an instinct to not fight each other, or DNA which doesn't get disease. Before you say "we need to suffer in order to grow", then he could give us an updated brain which does not need to suffer in order to grow.

As you said, God is omniscient and can see ahead of time, so why tell us not to sin if he knew before he created us that we would sin? Why tell Adam and Eve to not eat the apple if he knew they would - isn't that just a waste of time?

Assuming he is ALL powerful, then why would his human creation get him so angry when we sinned. He got so upset that he had to plan a way to forgive us and decided the best way to do that was to sacrifice his son in the same way that primitive cultures sacrifice goats to appease the gods? That feels very juvenile and unnecessary.

Guys, would you get upset if you created tiny ants and they didn't do as you wanted, despite knowing ahead of time that they wouldn't? Would you send down a baby ant to suffer so that you could muster up enough forgiveness? How does watching your son suffer enable you to forgive the other ants?

 

[d1975mon]

Thanks for your reply. Whilst interesting, it does jump to the extremes. I'm not suggesting we be robots, I'm suggesting a little less free will would be kinder.

If I were to create a living thing (in this case, humans) I would feel that my act is inherently selfish, because those humans didn't ask to be created and would likely suffer. I would surely NOT give them 100% free will at the expense of happiness. I would assume they would rather slightly less free will and slightly more happiness. Not robots, but a much kinder balance.

God gave us eyes, against our will and of course we are glad about that. God gave us hands, against our will (we had no choice) and of course we are glad about that. He gave us many things against our will, so why not give us enlightenment or an instinct to not fight each other, or DNA which doesn't get disease. Before you say "we need to suffer in order to grow", then he could give us an updated brain which does not need to suffer in order to grow.

As you said, God is omniscient and can see ahead of time, so why tell us not to sin if he knew before he created us that we would sin? Why tell Adam and Eve to not eat the apple if he knew they would - isn't that just a waste of time?

Assuming he is ALL powerful, then why would his human creation get him so angry when we sinned. He got so upset that he had to plan a way to forgive us and decided the best way to do that was to sacrifice his son in the same way that primitive cultures sacrifice goats to appease the gods? That feels very juvenile and unnecessary.

Guys, would you get upset if you created tiny ants and they didn't do as you wanted, despite knowing ahead of time that they wouldn't? Would you send down a baby ant to suffer so that you could muster up enough forgiveness? How does watching your son suffer enable you to forgive the other ants?

I believe that giving a new entity (humans or other) 100% free will is actually cruel. Why not give us less free will to start with and let us earn more as we develop so that we safely transition rather than start off a species with chaos and suffering. The suffering humans have faced is unforgivable, nothing will ever make it right. When the first person was burned alive, I would from that second onwards ignore all talk of love and perfection.

I was quite happy before birth, I didn't ask to be bought into this merry-go-round. Now that I am here I would opt for more happiness and love, and I'd be very happy to have less free will to achieve that. I still can't see why an all powerful God couldn't design it so that we could have both (no suffering and free will), well he could because he can do anything, but he chose not too I guess.

I haven't read the Bible so I may be missing a lot, and I think logically. I'm not closed completely, but I honestly haven't heard anything which "kind of" makes sense. Weird how we are all so different in our views.

I do like Buddhism and that way of thinking does bring me very slightly closer to "believers", but ultimately I think of us a primitive mammals trying to convince ourselves that we know the answers to the biggest questions. I don't think the universe will be anything like any of us imagine.

I don't feel the need to know and I feel no responsibility to try. If you believe in Hell I feel sorry that you have to have that nasty threat hanging over you, that must be stressful.

Why would a child in India who gets run over at the age of 3 have any reason to have "found God", will he go to Hell? Will the poor man who committed suicide go to Hell? If I created people, the man who committed suicide would have the MAXIMUM love after death because he's suffered too much.

 

[AvgJoe]

He got so upset that he had to plan a way to forgive us and decided the best way to do that was to sacrifice his son...

God's plan of salvation was established before the creation of the world (1 Peter 1:18-20, Revelation 13:8).

 

[d1975mon]

Thanks AvgJoe.

If God's plan of salvation was established before the creation, then so too was his plan (and knowledge) of our suffering.

Why wouldn't he "fast track" us to a place where we have a more civilised society and then (only then) give us 100% free will!!

My understanding of free will might be different to many others. I love music, for example, but have no memory of "deciding" to love it. It was not my free will. As with much of my personality or basic impulses, it is derived from subconscious activity, what I've been exposed to randomly and my upbringing. Why on earth would a lovely creator not embed something in all of us which would produce more harmony on earth? He embedded a sense of drive and ambition in the human species (without asking our permission), yet when we question why he didn't embed a sense of deep peace and unity, we are told because we need free will?

I would be very scared of a creator who deliberately created an entropic universe, only to demand our adulation and bring rage if we don't appease him.

On a positive, I like the philosophies of Jesus, similar to Buddhists beliefs from 1000 years prior. And although I am doubtful that Jesus actually existed in reality, the words attributed to him are both wise and timeless. I see his kindness very different to Gods though, they are like to separate belief systems to me. There seems to be less contradictions when focusing purely on Jesus' teachings.

As always, forgive me if I've missed something drastic because I haven't read the Bible and am speaking out of impulse and logic more than anything else connected with studying religion. Happy to take your thoughts on board

 

[bling]

Thanks AvgJoe.

If God's plan of salvation was established before the creation, then so too was his plan (and knowledge) of our suffering.

Why wouldn't he "fast track" us to a place where we have a more civilised society and then (only then) give us 100% free will!!

My understanding of free will might be different to many others. I love music, for example, but have no memory of "deciding" to love it. It was not my free will. As with much of my personality or basic impulses, it is derived from subconscious activity, what I've been exposed to randomly and my upbringing. Why on earth would a lovely creator not embed something in all of us which would produce more harmony on earth? He embedded a sense of drive and ambition in the human species (without asking our permission), yet when we question why he didn't embed a sense of deep peace and unity, we are told because we need free will?

I would be very scared of a creator who deliberately created an entropic universe, only to demand our adulation and bring rage if we don't appease him.

On a positive, I like the philosophies of Jesus, similar to Buddhists beliefs from 1000 years prior. And although I am doubtful that Jesus actually existed in reality, the words attributed to him are both wise and timeless. I see his kindness very different to Gods though, they are like to separate belief systems to me. There seems to be less contradictions when focusing purely on Jesus' teachings.

As always, forgive me if I've missed something drastic because I haven't read the Bible and am speaking out of impulse and logic more than anything else connected with studying religion. Happy to take your thoughts on board

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created being to shower with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

 

[d1975mon]

The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

God has created being to shower with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.



So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)



This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).



An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).



This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.



Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.



All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

I have read your reply, thank you for taking the time to do that.

Your first sentence is: The reason you have free will is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective." I didn't ask to have to under go earthy objectives. God forced that on me when he create me.

You also said that "there are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do" (that would make him not all-powerful surely!) "the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive"

My point exactly. God should have made it instinctive. Let me ask; if we found a way to make our brains develop into enlightened states much easier with a new type of machine, for example, we would all take it and be much happier. God could have just given us that (and much more) from the start.

I appreciate your replies but I think there are too many assumptions that have to be made to accept even a small part of your argument. Even if I play along and make numerous assumptions, I am still very far away from your thinking. It's been interesting but I I will wish you well and we will have to agree to disagree!

 

[outlawState]

entropic

Free will.....
what do Christians think about this?

Free will is only free in Christians. This is because then the will is free from our erstwhile conceits that wrongly lead us to suppose that we are anyone at all. We are nothing. We could all die today. If we really have free will we would do what benefited us. We don't because we sin and our mind is cloudy, and at emnity with the truth. I bet even today you will waste your time doing things that cannot benefit you. This is because your will is not free. It is bound by the conceits of the mind. So Christ came to set us free. But if you don't want to be free, that's up to you.

 

[ldonjohn]

You have been given some very good answers to you questions. Instead of trying to add to those responses I hope you won't mind if just share my story of how I found answers to many of the same question you have asked here.

I have been a Christian for many years. Before I became a Christian I had some of the same kinds of questions about God & Jesus that you are asking. Jesus dying on the cross made no sense to me. I would ask myself why did God create people with the ability to choose to believe in Him or to choose not to believe in Him. Of course I had many other questions about God.

Although I grew up in a Baptist church there were times that I wasn't convinced that God even existed. I could not understand how Jesus' dying on a cross saved anyone. Almost every time I was in church I heard that if I wanted to go to heaven instead of hell that all I had to do was say a prayer "in Jesus' name." Again, that made no sense to me. I could not understand how just saying a prayer “in Jesus' name” saved anyone from hell. Of course I did not want to go to hell, but then I also questioned whether or not hell existed.

As a young adult I became quite concerned about my eternal fate if the bible was actually true, and I began to seek answers to my many questions about the truth about God, Jesus, and the bible.

I asked question at church, talked to the preachers, Sunday School teachers, and friends in church. I also read several books about salvation, read salvation tracts, and began to listen to the preaching in church and on radio/TV programs. But, I found nothing that convinced me that any of it was true. My concern about the matter of my eternal fate soon developed into a state of fear & misery. Although I wasn't convinced that God was real or that the bible was true, something was driving me to search for answers. One thing I was confused about was the meaning of “believing.” I wanted to believe that God is real. I wanted to believe in Jesus but I didn't know what that meant or how to believe. I really thought that I would never know the truth of the matter. I sensed that I had missed something; that there was a missing link, and I did not know what that missing link was. I believed that I would someday die without ever knowing the truth of it all and would possibly spend my eternity in hell. That was a fearful thought; a thought that literally scared the hell out of me.

After living in the fear & misery for several years without finding answers about God & Jesus, one night as I went to bed I just gave up on it all, and out of a sense of desperation I looked up at the ceiling in the room and said a prayer to the God I wasn't sure existed. I was hoping He was there and that He would hear my prayer as I said “God, will you show me the truth about you and about Jesus?”

For some reason the next day I found our family bible, dusted it off, and opened it to the Book of John. (I had heard someone say that the Book of John told about the life of Jesus, so I went to that book)

I started reading in chapter 1 verse 1, and immediately I realized that for the first time in my life I was understanding the words I was reading in the bible. That was also the first time I had read anything in the bible outside of church and the first time I had opened a bible without a preacher or Sunday School teacher telling me to do so. As I read there I knew that I had found that missing link. The Holy Spirit was that missing link who was enabling me to understand the truth of the bible. The Holy Spirit literally opened my blind spiritual eyes so I could understand God's Word. I had been living in a state of spiritual blindness & darkness, therefore I could not understand spiritual truth found only in the Bible. At the moment I began to read in John 1:1 the Holy Spirit literally “turned on the light” for me and I “got it.” I was a blind man who suddenly could see the truth about God, the bible, and Jesus.

By the time I read through John chapter 6 the Holy Spirit showed me the answers I needed so that I was convinced that the bible is truth, that God is real, and that Jesus is God who became a man so He could die on the cross for MY sins. IOW, He died and shed His blood there to pay my sin debt to God; a debt that I could never pay. He took my sins to the cross with Him; my sin was nailed to the cross with Him. He was God, and still is God, who just before He died said “it is finished” meaning “paid in full.” My sin debt is paid in full. Immediately, as I saw that He took care of MY sin problem, I also saw that He, Jesus, was waiting for me to come to Him as a sinner who needed a savior to receive His forgiveness. That I did as I bowed my head and did say a prayer thanking Him for dying on that cross for me and asking Him to change me His way. The complete convincing of the Holy Spirit was the moment I “believed” Believing in Jesus is being convinced by God's Word through the influence of the Holy Spirit that He paid my sin debt for me on the cross AND that He will not reject anyone who comes to Him for forgiveness of sin and a new life in Him.
Yes, I said a prayer but the prayer was the result of my "believing" or having been "convinced" that Jesus bore my sins on the cross. The prayer didn't save me - Jesus did.

I was and still am convinced, am still a believer after 35+ years, and still have an absolute assurance that my eternity is secure in His finished work on the cross. The fear is gone and I have peace.

One final thought. No, Mr. atheist, I did not convince myself that the bible is the truth, that God is real, and that Jesus is who He said He is. That kind of belief comes ONLY through the convincing influence of the Holy Spirit by the Word of God, the Bible. It does not happen by the will of man. No man can convince anyone to believe the Gospel; it is a Holy Spirit event.

ldonjohn

 

[JD16]

But God in His omniscience saw ahead of time and knew that we would fail and fall and need Him. He wanted us to be able to choose Him. He wanted us to have the choice to love because He knew that love without choice isn't love at all. He gave us a free will so that we could choose to be in relationship with Him. I believe that God giving us a choice had more to do with His glory and satisfaction than it did with our liberty. After all, we were created in His image ultimately for His glory.

Hi,.... this issue of omniscience always fascinates me,.....not only on free will but on a much larger scale,....If God knows everything, it would mean that he knows everything about me even before I was born,..everything about me, every thought that I would have, every decision I would make, and every action that I would take, ...from the moment I am born, till the moment I draw my last breath,....and for argument sake, lets say that I'm destined for the fires of hell,....wouldn't it be more merciful to not let me exist in the first place since another one of God's characteristics is omnibenevolence?

What are your thoughts, thanks

 

[JD16]

What sins did Jesus die for? All of them! 1 John 2:2(NLT): 2) He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

Hi, If that is so, then why is it that everyone is still born with 'original sin' ? Just curious thanks