I'm a non believer and very comfortable with my position, but I have one question which I would like to ask in all respect simply because it's bugged me for a while.
As I understand it, Jesus was sent here to pay for our sins. I don't really understand why God would do that given that he likes us to have free will.
But my questions is, what sins did Jesus want to make right? Murder, theft etc... as I see it, nothing was achieved because we still sin.
This thread has given a lot of responses to your questions, and they're not all entirely consistent or complete. I don't mean by this that they are wrong. I want to imply that the issue is more complicated than "Jesus came to pay for sins." He did a lot more than that. And I will say from the beginning that there's lots I don't understand ... But here are some things I have been learning:
We are, and Christians believe we were created to be, social and spiritual beings. In some sense we were made "in the image or the likeness of God." At the core of this is that we are "relational." God wanted to hang out with us. We believe God IS love, intrinsically. As such he cannot behave except "in love." A person who acts in true love does not impose himself on the one he loves. He respects the person's dignity and integrity and right to make his own decisions about his own life. He will give information about the consequences of those decisions. But he does not command or demand a certain choice. He may not like or approve of those decisions, or choices, but he respects the individual's right to make them. However, he is consistent and he does not suspend the consequences of our choices - he views us a responsible, accountable beings.
When God created the universe part of what he did was establish physical-chemical processes. Some of these we have had fairly good understanding of for a long time (like gravity). Others our scientists are learning more and more about. All of them that I have ever come across involve some form of cause and effect. But God also established equivalent principles for social and spiritual spheres of our lives. All of these also have consequences that derive from specific behaviours.
In our relationships we know that we can and do hurt one another, sometimes very deeply. We damage our relationships. If we're fortunate we can ask and receive forgiveness and try to rebuild the relationship. But in most cases the consequences, the "collateral damage" doesn't go away because we are forgiven. You spread lies about someone in a way that destroys their reputation, you may be forgiven, but that act doesn't in itself restore the relationship or the reputation. So forgiveness doesn't deal with all of the consequences. What is needed is reconciliation (the restoration and rebuilding of the relationship) and some form or restitution (restoring or repaying the collatoral damage that was the consequence of our actions).
Our relationship with God (but not only with him) lies in the sphere or our spiritual core. He gave us, with our birth a huge variety of gifts and opportunities. You are gifted beyond your imagination! And he maintains the life processes that keep you going. He gives you every 24 hours a new day, sunshine and rain, etc etc. He gives much of all this to even the most evil of individuals. God is by nature a Giver. Driven by love. He planted in you enormous potential, and set you on the path to become a whole human being - a complete human being, ALL THAT YOU WERE MEANT TO BE. But He doesn't want a robot; he wants a friend; he wants a relationship with you/us. He wants to see you in beautiful, constructive and growing relationships, growing as a person without stop.
Christians generally preach "Believe in God, believe in Jesus, put you trust in him." The reality is that from the beginning God has believed in YOU, God is convinced you can be "the model human being" and given you a set of pre-conditions that when you link up with him, will let you grow to be all that! And he will never give up! Love doesn't give up!
Sin is ultimately any attitude, action or behavioural pattern that entails turning your back on all the potential, despising (even ignoring is equivalent to despising, if you think of it) his gifts and refusing to listen to, or see and respond to the opportunities to become all he intended you to become - including becoming his friend. Of course, part of what he intended and continues to intend, is that we give or pass on what we have received; that we act in the same kind of love that he treats us with; that we see and encourage the potential in the people around us rather than destroy it. So anytime we behave badly to someone else it's a slap in the face of God.
God forgives. But like I wrote above, saying "I forgive you" doesn't alone heal the relatiomship nor does it deal with the consequences of our wrongdoing. We can never pay God back when we wrong him - everything we have we received ultimately from him - so we would only be giving him what is already his. We can bring nothing of our own to the table for reconciliation or restitution.
But Jesus can. Jesus came for many reasons. One of the most important was to identify himself with us. To know us from our side. He shared our life and experienced the worst things we expose one another to. One of the consequences of our wronging God was spiritual death - the destruction of our relationship with him. Jesus couldn't just say "death be gone" because we were already "dead" and many people before us. The only way was for him to identify himself with us all the way and die, and then, from the inside of death, break out and bring us with him (if we want to - that's our choice). That's the only way he could defeat death. Puting it off till later by not dying would never have got rid of it. He must do it from the inside.
Then he says, I identified myself with you all the way to death and burial. Now I invite you to identify with me and I will give you life. Life like you can't imagine! And I, he says, will be your reconcilitation, and together we will build a new relationship and deal with the restitution bit. I, he says, will be your representative in the courts of heaven, and I will make you my Ambassador wherever you are on earth. I invite you to join me in creating heaven on earth!
Jesus ALSO came to show us what God is really like. And he wasn't an ogre! In doing so he also showed us a model of character and of social interaction for us to live up to. He demonstrated live what it means to be "created in the likeness of God." Everyone of us is different, but the character traits he showed in his life right up to his death and even after his resurrection are character traits that we can display, each in our unique way.
Then he went on to share the very spirit of God with us, the life force that will give us the energy and the personal coaching for direction, as well as the inner workings that will transform us, develop that unique set of talents and skills you have, to become all you are meant to be. He guides us by helping us understand those social and spiritual principles that will ensure that we make behaviour choices that have constructive and positive outcomes for ourselves and the people around us.
That was a lot. Much more than just "Jesus came to pay for our sins." And I've hardly started. He wants you to live life to the full - but that means living the life that he intended you should have. Forgiving you is just the start.
Blessings!
Monna
