What did Jesus mean when He prayed that we would be one in John 17:21?

[Mountainmike]

The Catholic Church is unusual in two ways.

First it has a written catechism that explains the beliefs and why the church holds them. Search for catholic catechism. It is on the Vatican site.

Second, to become a catholic if you come in from outside as an adult there is a no obligation process called RCIA which explains the doctrines , sacraments and so on. It allows many of the myths about Catholicism to be dispelled.

Assuming you are happy to proceed then you come into the church which is the sacrament of confirmation ( which must be preceded by a sacrament of reconciliation ie confession ). For those who are not baptised baptism precedes that. Then after confirmation you receive the Eucharist.

it can all be done in one go, the so called “ grand slam” of sacraments, often at Easter but does not have to be.


The church offers a sponsor, someone to talk to during RCIA and who comes to the confirmation.

Is that the answer you hoped? For “ how to become a catholic” ? The defining act is confirmation into the church.

but RCIA is a no pressured fact finding / education exercise, if you are not happy you can leave any time! At very least you will find out more about us!

That answers the real question to the quiz, there are so many differing answers and it is hard to find the truth.

 

[Clare73]

True, but not the 'redefined' liberal meaning of justification, rather a justification
that is "uprightness (rectitudo)-of-will kept for its own sake."

It's Greek, not Latin. . .it's been the definition since it was written by Paul.

dikaiosis - pronouncement of acquittal; to declare to be "not guilty" by God (dikaioo); given right standing with justice; righteousness

How is Catholicism a special gift? The Catholic Church is the only True gift of God's mercy, she is herself a sacrament. The 40,000 others do not bring us to unity by virtue of their ever escalating numbers which belie their evil source.

Lagniappe means "a little added extra."

 

[Dave L]

Jesus prayed, "That all of them (His disciples) may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me." John 17:21-23

With the thousands of differing doctrines and countless denominational entities it is difficult to understand how this was ever part of Jesus' plan or design for His Church. If this is true, why are there so many who are okay with the divisions and divisiveness between those who claim to be in Christ?

We are one. Just very few in number as the end is near.

 

[JoeT]

Such as?

I asked a Catholic I was debating with in another thread if he could show me the parts of the Gospel that Protestants did not agree with - not the doctrines about Mary or Peter; the Gospel. I haven't yet had an answer.

Only because he is still compiling the list. Start with symbol (Protestant) and reality (Catholic).

I've asked if Catholics believe THE Gospel - about Jesus, the eternal Word, made flesh, born of the Virgin Mary, lived, taught and healed, died for our sins, raised, ascended, sent his Holy Spirit to all believers and will return again. I haven't yet had an answer.

When Christ died for our sins was it implied it was a penal judgement? If you did, there's another difference.

I've asked how, if non Catholics believe the same Gospel as Catholics, trust in the same Triune God, accept the same Saviour, receive the same Spirit, read, and quote from the same Scriptures and are equally children of God, how one group can be the "true church" and the others "not true Christians". I haven't yet had an answer.

That's because there isn't the same gospel. For one, if the Spirit you hear tells you a truth different from the Catholic Church, let me suggest it's a different spirit, one not of truth. The Holy Spirit guides us all toward the Catholic Church.

I don't believe "Protestantism" OR "Catholicism", I believe Jesus - don't know about you.

OK. I'm sorry to hear that I couldn't give you the answers you wanted to hear.

I am certain that Catholics believe the Gospel, just as non Catholics do.

Not quite the same way non-Catholics do which is a message contrary to Catholicism.

The reasons I am not a Catholic are;

a) Catholicism seems to be about the Gospel + . The Gospel is not enough, it's the Gospel + Peter's primacy, Mary's position and you have to believe what we believe about the sacraments.

Wait, wait! Didn't you start off saying Protestantism and Catholicism is the same thing? Nevertheless, it's not gospel + or Peter's primacy + and the like. The "+" are those things you refuse to recognize because you can't rationalize Scripture with your personal faith.

b) I've been made to feel most unwelcome in a Catholic church - and this was during the week of prayer for Christian unity, which the Catholic church chose to join in with!

Maybe you wanted to feel unwelcome. But, if you truly were its a shame on that priest.

Ditto a Catholic retreat center which advertised that it welcomed people from all Christian churches - and then refused to let me take communion.

That was for your own spiritual health. Likely, the priest didn't want to be responsible for making you "guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord." [1 Corinthians 11:27]

I got the impression that I could have been an ex prisoner, and as long as I was Catholic that would have been fine. My "sin" was to be a born again Christian who happened to worship in a Methodist church.

I got news for you the curse, if you want to call it that, is doubly on Catholics. You see Catholics believe the Eucharist is the real presence of Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. To place the Body and Blood in the mouth of those who don't believe this is both a condemnation on the person 'unworthily' partaking and if known to the priest, a condemnation on His soul as well.

c) Catholics on these forums have been derogatory and occasionally rude about my being a non Catholic and sometimes questioned my salvation.

They might have been. Especially if you insisted that they believe the same thing you do, that there is no difference in Protestantism, did you make exceptions for the "+'s"?

I think a lot of Christians don't know, or care, about "concepts of justification; they just disagree with some Catholic practices and are made to feel 2nd class Christians (if Christians at all) when they question them.

You really mean Catholics don't have your correct concept of justification.

But you do disagree with the concepts of justification. If you didn't you would understand "the push back". Let me ease your mind, Catholicism and Protestantism, they are not comparable, they are not the same thing or mutually interchangeable.

So you've quoted St Anselm, how about quoting Scripture?

If you would read St. Anselm you'd find that he does 'quote' as well as expound on the significance of Scripture.

Why do you exaggerate/make stuff up?

I guess that's the funny part. Everything I write, I try only express the understanding of the Church.

Who has ever said that anything in Christianity or the church is the result of someone "waving a magic wand"? Why does that even come into it?

There is Calvinism with their double predestination, wand waving, and Luther with is single predestination of the chosen, wand waving. Not to leave out the reformer who 'believes' therefore is.

I thought it was called faith?

Christ became sin for us so that, in him, we might become the righteousness of God, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

That's not magic, that's an awesome fact.

I hit a nerve didn't I? Let me double down, justification is not being saved in and of itself with the words "I believe" just so you reap the reward of heaven. For sure it helps, however justification is the rectitude of the will for its own sake. Love is simply looking for the good of another for its own sake.

Scripture says that if we receive, believe in and accept Christ and repent of our sins, we die to sin; crucified with him, Romans 6:2-4 It says that in Christ we are new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, it says that we are clothed ourselves with Christ, Galatians 3:27 and are to put on our new selves, Ephesians 4:24, Colossians 3:10.

Yes we are to have all these things, we are also to have water and Spirit baptism entering into justification, which brings us from being unjust to worthy of Him abiding in us, just in virtue. But we do so for its own sake, not for payment of heaven. The bible also speaks of all the sacraments required for eternal life.

If you are saying that someone cannot clothe themselves with Christ while they are still unbelievers and unrepentant sinners, you are correct - that's why repentance and belief come first.

Not waving silly magic wands.

Important to note here is Catholics don't wear Christ like a new suit, rather we put in Christ to abide in Him and He in us. We also believe in an prevenient grace that draws us to Christ, but until we are informed by the Church, reformed in Baptism we are not worthy, nor is anyone.

I don't know what you are talking about - you haven't given an example, nor have you shown any evidence.

The only example I can give to help with your understanding is that Catholics sometimes metaphorically think of St. Peter as the gatekeeper. He stands at the gates of heaven withholding admittance to those who have false claims to enter. As you recall St. Peter has the keys to bind and loose. Hence, a simple claim to 'open the gate', is thwarted. One must be justified, perfectly.

The Christian faith is the Gospel - simples.

Samples? Or simply? I'm saying the protest is the Protestant faith - after all they call themselves Protesters of the Church. So, it is the House of God they attack.

So you're saying that Protestants ignore all the verses about knowing and doing God's will?

We don't pray "thy will be done", or if we do then we don't mean it; and we spend our time telling God he should do what WE want?

Rubbish.

You mean you don't say "thy will be done"? Some do spend their time telling God what He should and shouldn't do, often with bad results.

I'm saying that Protestants are the religious equivalent of the liberal politicians. That is Truth becomes an object of relativity, rationalism and God operates in multiple realities.

Never mind the "clever" words and erudite quotations; do Catholics and Protestants believe the same Gospel and trust in the same Savior?

Oh, they're not "clever" at all the concept has been around since 1886. There use to be a version on the internet, Liberalism is a sin. Fr. Salvany was a priest in Spain who made a brilliant observation about liberalism, once a euphemism for Protestantism - kind of like euphemism Democrat party for communism.

JoeT

 

[timothyu]

These are the questions that divide us!

This whole sola scriptura thing is irrelevant as it only addresses religion. What divides us is I prefer to go back further than a tradition that claims it is the basis of a religion. No religion is necessary according to Jesus or the Apostles. They taught a way of life that needed no institution built in the same ways of other institutions within the Empire and before. Continuing to imitate world rather than Kingdom. The Kingdom is a culture counter to the world of man. Yet man, true to nature, continues to make God over in their image instead of doing the opposite.
You argue to maintain a religion. I argue to maintain a way of life. Fortunately your church (the people, not the administration) is very good in their charity. The administration is more interested in maintaining their exclusivity. But in the end it is not about us. It is as Jesus taught, only about the Kingdom of God, His governance superior to the governance of self serving man, the good news that man will no longer control or show authourity over fellow man..

 

[JoeT]

It's Greek, not Latin. . .it's been the definition since it was written by Paul.

dikaiosis - pronouncement of acquittal; to declare to be "not guilty" by God (dikaioo); given right standing with justice; righteousness

Of course I use the Latin Vulgate or rather I should say the Douay-Rheims. An interesting note, in many of cases of "justification" found in the King James, is translated in the Douay-Rheims as righteousness or justice. I wonder why?

Lagniappe means "a little added extra."[/QUOTE]

I took your comment all wrong then, I understood the comment "Lagniappe" to indicate Catholicism had a little a bonus, a dividend, extra gift or bonus.

Now we know!, Anybody who knows this word must be South American.

JoeT

 

[Clare73]

Of course I use the Latin Vulgate or rather I should say the Douay-Rheims. An interesting note, in many of cases of "justification" found in the King James, is translated in the Douay-Rheims as righteousness or justice. I wonder why?

Lagniappe means "a little added extra."

I took your comment all wrong then, I understood the comment "Lagniappe"
to indicate Catholicism had a little a bonus, a dividend, extra gift or bonus.

I wouldn't argue that it doesn't, but I was referring to my bonus comment on "peace on earth."

Now we know!, Anybody who knows this word must be South American.

Been there once, for three days.

It was South American before the word traveled to New Orleans.

Guess again. . .close.

 

[JoeT]

This whole sola scriptura thing is irrelevant as it only addresses religion. What divides us is I prefer to go back further than a tradition that claims it is the basis of a religion. No religion is necessary according to Jesus or the Apostles. They taught a way of life that needed no institution built in the same ways of other institutions within the Empire and before. Continuing to imitate world rather than Kingdom. The Kingdom is a culture counter to the world of man. Yet man, true to nature, continues to make God over in their image instead of doing the opposite.
You argue to maintain a religion. I argue to maintain a way of life. Fortunately your church (the people, not the administration) is very good in their charity. The administration is more interested in maintaining their exclusivity. But in the end it is not about us. It is as Jesus taught, only about the Kingdom of God, His governance superior to the governance of self serving man, the good news that man will no longer control or show authourity over fellow man..

Actually, religion is a grace of virtue. St. Augustine said it is the Latin word religare, to bind. Religion is cooperating in the bond between man and God paying the honor due Him.

Now it is evident that to render anyone his due has the aspect of good, since by rendering a person his due, one becomes suitably proportioned to him, through being ordered to him in a becoming manner.

But order comes under the aspect of good, just as mode and species, according to Augustine (De Nat. Boni iii). Since then it belongs to religion to pay due honor to someone, namely, to God, it is evident that religion is a virtue.​

Just curious, are there any authoritative figures in your life? You seem to have a real distaste for anything remotely close to authority.

JoeT

 

[timothyu]

Actually, religion is a grace of virtue. St. Augustine said it is the Latin word religare, to bind. Religion is cooperating in the bond between man and God paying the honor due Him.

Ok lets then call the growing gentile religion an institution modelled upon the other institutions of man, thus worldly in nature. It stopped being a way of life and turned into a business, a governing institution of man. They skipped over being servants of God and each other to being representatives of authourity, thus running contrary to the Gospel of the Kingdom.
At one point it even rejected it's role as representative of the Kingdom to rejoin the world of man, first working as a tool of the system, and eventually becoming a worldly power in itself, no longer an ambassador but a ruler intent on preserving itself just like any other in the world of man.

Just curious, are there any authoritative figures in your life? You seem to have a real distaste for anything remotely close to authority.

Yes, the Father and my only middleman, Jesus. I have no choice but to accept authourity in the world man has created in our own image, but I am not loyal to it. I am of the counter-culture of the Kingdom which is not of this world nor do I pose a threat to this world. I trust someday God will resume governance and squash the life out of this faux governance of man over man which even many churches try to impose.

 

[JoeT]

I wouldn't argue that it doesn't, but I was referring to my bonus comment on "peace on earth."

Been there once, for three days.

That was before the word traveled to New Orleans.

Guess again. . .close.

Dadgummit, foiled again!

 

[Clare73]

Dadgummit, foiled again!

"Dadgummit" always trumps lagniappe.

 

[Strong in Him]

Only because he is still compiling the list. Start with symbol (Protestant) and reality (Catholic).

He doesn't need to compile a list.
Do Catholics believe the Gospel is about Jesus Christ, man and God, suffered, died for our sins, raised again, ascended nd sent his Holy Spirit to live in believers - yes or no?
Do you believe the Nicene Creed, yes or no?

If yes to both; that's what Protestants believe so there is no difference between us. ONE God, ONE faith, ONE Gospel, ONE Saviour.

When Christ died for our sins was it implied it was a penal judgement? If you did, there's another difference.

Christ offered his life as a ransom for sin, Mark 10:45.
He, the Good Shepherd, voluntarily lay down his life for his sheep, John 10:11.
Jesus died for our sins and through him we are reconciled to God, Romans 5:8, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

That's the important thing - Christ died for our sins, we can be forgiven through him.

That's because there isn't the same gospel.

Paul said that there is only one Gospel, Galatians 1:6-9 - how many do you think that there are?

For one, if the Spirit you hear tells you a truth different from the Catholic Church, let me suggest it's a different spirit, one not of truth. The Holy Spirit guides us all toward the Catholic Church.

He hasn't guided me towards that church.
I became a Christian while a member of an Anglican church - confirmed, filled with the Spirit, blessed, taught and memorised Scripture. That growth has continued in the different churches that I've attended - house churches, the Methodist church, the Baptist church, some Salvation Army meetings, the United Reformed church etc.
I've been in a Catholic church about 3 times; never felt any leading, or inclination, to join them.

Wait, wait! Didn't you start off saying Protestantism and Catholicism is the same thing? Nevertheless, it's not gospel + or Peter's primacy + and the like. The "+" are those things you refuse to recognize because you can't rationalize Scripture with your personal faith.

I am saying there is ONE Gospel, ONE God, ONE Saviour etc. And if protestants and catholics both believe that, accept that Gospel as stated in the Nicene Creed, they are the same. BOTH loved, saved and called children of God by God.
That is the Gospel. Jesus ALONE saves, not Jesus + anything else. Anyone who says "we believe Jesus is our Saviour but you have to also believe/do ..... to be saved", is wrong.
Believe that Peter was the first pope if you like, and that Mary was forever a virgin - it makes no difference to the Gospel. And it's not about "rationalising Scripture" - Scripture doesn't say either of those things, nor were they taught by Jesus or the 12.

Maybe you wanted to feel unwelcome. But, if you truly were its a shame on that priest.

No, of course I didn't want to feel unwelcome.

That was for your own spiritual health. Likely, the priest didn't want to be responsible for making you "guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord." [1 Corinthians 11:27]

My spiritual health was, and is, fine - I dread to think what his will be like if God ever says to him, "why did you refuse to welcome one of my children at my table?"
I would not have been "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" - read it in context.

I got news for you the curse, if you want to call it that, is doubly on Catholics. You see Catholics believe the Eucharist is the real presence of Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. To place the Body and Blood in the mouth of those who don't believe this is both a condemnation on the person 'unworthily' partaking and if known to the priest, a condemnation on His soul as well.

If he believed it was a sin to allow me to share in OUR Saviour's meal - for it is he who invites us to his table, and who said "do this in memory of me" - I guess he has to withhold Christ's body and blood so as not to "sin".
What would God say though?

I believe that at communion we remember that Christ, the bread of Life and the True Vine, died for us. He is with us by his Spirit and when we receive the elements, we receive Christ. I have been blessed many, many times at communion services and experienced God's love and grace in a new way. Why should anyone want to deny that to another Christian by saying "you don't believe as we do"?

They might have been. Especially if you insisted that they believe the same thing you do, that there is no difference in Protestantism, did you make exceptions for the "+'s"?

I believe the Gospel. If you are saying that Catholics don't believe the same as me, then presumably they don't believe the Gospel.
The "+"'s are not the Gospel.

You really mean Catholics don't have your correct concept of justification.

Please don't tell me what I really mean.

I guess that's the funny part. Everything I write, I try only express the understanding of the Church.

The Catholic church believes that protestants wave "magic wands"?
That's another reason for never joining them.

There is Calvinism with their double predestination, wand waving, and Luther with is single predestination of the chosen, wand waving. Not to leave out the reformer who 'believes' therefore is.

None of that is the Gospel.
Scripture says that Jesus died for sin, to reconcile us to God - that we have peace with God through Jesus. Jesus says that is it God's will that people believe in him and have eternal life, and John says that if a person does not have the Sn, they do not have life, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12.

If people want to have an academic debate about whether everyone can believe or whether the God of love "selects" some to not believe; that's up to them.
Scripture says that whoever is not FOR Christ is against him, whoever does not receive him does not have eternal life and is not his child, John 1:12, and that no one can even come to God except through Christ, John 14:6.
In the NT it's very clear - for Christ, or against him; in Christ, or in the world, in the Spirit or in the flesh, in the light or in the darkness.

I hit a nerve didn't I?

No of course you didn't.
I don't believe in magic wands.

Yes we are to have all these things, we are also to have water and Spirit baptism entering into justification,

Jesus taught baptism by water and Spirit, certainly.
But we are baptised in water to show that we have been saved, and can only be baptised in the Spirit after we are saved. Water baptism does not save us and baptism in the Spirit is not possible - or at least happens extremely rarely if at all - before salvation.

Important to note here is Catholics don't wear Christ like a new suit, rather we put in Christ to abide in Him and He in us. We also believe in an prevenient grace that draws us to Christ, but until we are informed by the Church, reformed in Baptism we are not worthy, nor is anyone.

No one can ever do anything to make themselves worthy of God's love or salvation - even going to a Catholic church all your life won't do it.
Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8, not for the worthy. Sick people need a doctor, not the healthy.

Samples? Or simply?

Sorry, I did think you might not understand that.
It's from a UK advert featuring talking meercats - they mean "simple", they say "simples". It's become a catchphrase in the UK.

I mean, the Christian faith is the Gospel of Christ - end of, period, simple.
Christians who are not Catholics are not Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or anything else - we are Christians, we belong to Christ.

I'm saying the protest is the Protestant faith - after all they call themselves Protesters of the Church. So, it is the House of God they attack.

I think they were protesting against the Catholic church at the time, with it's sale of indulgences, promising people time out of purgatory, or other such stuff.

If you say that the Catholic church as established at Pentecost, no one would have protested against that - believers were healing the sick, preaching the word and raising the dead. Or at least, the Pharisees who wanted people to be circumcised might have, but they were false teachers.

You mean you don't say "thy will be done"? Some do spend their time telling God what He should and shouldn't do, often with bad results.

Of course we do - it's you who was implying that we don't; that we try to bend God to our will.

I'm saying that Protestants are the religious equivalent of the liberal politicians.

That's probably what you've been taught to say.

Still no answer to the question "Do Catholics believe the Gospel?"

I can understand you not wanting to admit you believe in the same God, Saviour, Spirit and Gospel as Protestants because then you'd have no grounds at all for saying that we (non catholics) are not true Christians. And again, that's probably what you've been taught.

 

[JoeT]

Ok lets then call the growing gentile religion an institution modelled upon the other institutions of man, thus worldly in nature. They skipped over being servants of God and each other to being representatives of authourity, thus running contrary to the Gospel of the Kingdom.

At one point it even rejected it's role as representative of the Kingdom to rejoin the world of man, first working as a tool of the system, and eventually becoming a worldly power in itself, no longer an ambassador but a ruler intent on preserving itself just like any other in the world of man.

When was holy and priestly Kingdom instituted by God, nullified? [Cf. Exodus 19:6]. What makes you think the Christ walked away from God's Kingdom? The Catholic Church isn't a new institute rather the old under new management, in a manner of speaking.

Yes, the Father and my only middleman, Jesus. I have no choice but to accept authority in the world man has created in our own image, but I am not loyal to it. I am of the counter-culture of the Kingdom which is not of this world nor do I pose a threat to this world. I trust someday God will resume governance and squash the life out of this faux governance of man over man even churches try to impose.

.

So, it doesn't make any difference that man's nature makes us a social animals.

St. Thomas says, "because man is naturally a social being, and so in the state of innocence he would have led a social life. Now a social life cannot exist among a number of people unless under the presidency of one to look after the common good; for many, as such, seek many things, whereas one attends only to one. Wherefore the Philosopher says, in the beginning of the Politics, that wherever many things are directed to one, we shall always find one at the head directing them." [Summa Theologiae, Primal pars 90,4]

It takes a big man to fight against nature, and win, are you sure you're up to it? Or, are your just unsociable?

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

"Dadgummit" always trumps lagniappe.

And nothing trumps Trump.

JoeT

 

[timothyu]

What makes you think the Christ walked away from God's Kingdom?

He didn't. A human ladder climbing church did.

It takes a big man to fight against nature, and win, are you sure you're up to it? Or, are your just unsociable?

Our basic nature is animal the same as our mammalian kin. We seek as a matter of instinct self preservation. What sets us apart is our intellect (knowledge of good and evil) which in turn is used to overcome our basic instincts and seek a higher plain made available by the aspect of God within us. So yes, I fight nature. The majority choose self interest and gain at the expense of others as we go beyond our animal kin in seeking more than we need, while few follow the will of God rather than self and in putting
His will ahead of our own, in return do His will in loving all as self. Too bad the religion gentiles built didn't stick with the will of God but instead first whored itself to the Empire, then sought to establish itself as a world power. That is not forwarding the Gospel of the Kingdom, but like the Adversary, mimicking God..

 

[JoeT]

He doesn't need to compile a list.
Do Catholics believe the Gospel is about Jesus Christ, man and God, suffered, died for our sins, raised again, ascended nd sent his Holy Spirit to live in believers - yes or no?
Do you believe the Nicene Creed, yes or no?

If yes to both; that's what Protestants believe so there is no difference between us. ONE God, ONE faith, ONE Gospel, ONE Saviour.



Christ offered his life as a ransom for sin, Mark 10:45.
He, the Good Shepherd, voluntarily lay down his life for his sheep, John 10:11.
Jesus died for our sins and through him we are reconciled to God, Romans 5:8, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:18.

That's the important thing - Christ died for our sins, we can be forgiven through him.



Paul said that there is only one Gospel, Galatians 1:6-9 - how many do you think that there are?



He hasn't guided me towards that church.
I became a Christian while a member of an Anglican church - confirmed, filled with the Spirit, blessed, taught and memorised Scripture. That growth has continued in the different churches that I've attended - house churches, the Methodist church, the Baptist church, some Salvation Army meetings, the United Reformed church etc.
I've been in a Catholic church about 3 times; never felt any leading, or inclination, to join them.



I am saying there is ONE Gospel, ONE God, ONE Saviour etc. And if protestants and catholics both believe that, accept that Gospel as stated in the Nicene Creed, they are the same. BOTH loved, saved and called children of God by God.
That is the Gospel. Jesus ALONE saves, not Jesus + anything else. Anyone who says "we believe Jesus is our Saviour but you have to also believe/do ..... to be saved", is wrong.
Believe that Peter was the first pope if you like, and that Mary was forever a virgin - it makes no difference to the Gospel. And it's not about "rationalising Scripture" - Scripture doesn't say either of those things, nor were they taught by Jesus or the 12.



No, of course I didn't want to feel unwelcome.



My spiritual health was, and is, fine - I dread to think what his will be like if God ever says to him, "why did you refuse to welcome one of my children at my table?"
I would not have been "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" - read it in context.



If he believed it was a sin to allow me to share in OUR Saviour's meal - for it is he who invites us to his table, and who said "do this in memory of me" - I guess he has to withhold Christ's body and blood so as not to "sin".
What would God say though?

I believe that at communion we remember that Christ, the bread of Life and the True Vine, died for us. He is with us by his Spirit and when we receive the elements, we receive Christ. I have been blessed many, many times at communion services and experienced God's love and grace in a new way. Why should anyone want to deny that to another Christian by saying "you don't believe as we do"?



I believe the Gospel. If you are saying that Catholics don't believe the same as me, then presumably they don't believe the Gospel.
The "+"'s are not the Gospel.



Please don't tell me what I really mean.



The Catholic church believes that protestants wave "magic wands"?
That's another reason for never joining them.



None of that is the Gospel.
Scripture says that Jesus died for sin, to reconcile us to God - that we have peace with God through Jesus. Jesus says that is it God's will that people believe in him and have eternal life, and John says that if a person does not have the Sn, they do not have life, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12.

If people want to have an academic debate about whether everyone can believe or whether the God of love "selects" some to not believe; that's up to them.
Scripture says that whoever is not FOR Christ is against him, whoever does not receive him does not have eternal life and is not his child, John 1:12, and that no one can even come to God except through Christ, John 14:6.
In the NT it's very clear - for Christ, or against him; in Christ, or in the world, in the Spirit or in the flesh, in the light or in the darkness.



No of course you didn't.
I don't believe in magic wands.



Jesus taught baptism by water and Spirit, certainly.
But we are baptised in water to show that we have been saved, and can only be baptised in the Spirit after we are saved. Water baptism does not save us and baptism in the Spirit is not possible - or at least happens extremely rarely if at all - before salvation.



No one can ever do anything to make themselves worthy of God's love or salvation - even going to a Catholic church all your life won't do it.
Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8, not for the worthy. Sick people need a doctor, not the healthy.



Sorry, I did think you might not understand that.
It's from a UK advert featuring talking meercats - they mean "simple", they say "simples". It's become a catchphrase in the UK.

I mean, the Christian faith is the Gospel of Christ - end of, period, simple.
Christians who are not Catholics are not Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or anything else - we are Christians, we belong to Christ.



I think they were protesting against the Catholic church at the time, with it's sale of indulgences, promising people time out of purgatory, or other such stuff.

If you say that the Catholic church as established at Pentecost, no one would have protested against that - believers were healing the sick, preaching the word and raising the dead. Or at least, the Pharisees who wanted people to be circumcised might have, but they were false teachers.



Of course we do - it's you who was implying that we don't; that we try to bend God to our will.



That's probably what you've been taught to say.

Still no answer to the question "Do Catholics believe the Gospel?"

I can understand you not wanting to admit you believe in the same God, Saviour, Spirit and Gospel as Protestants because then you'd have no grounds at all for saying that we (non catholics) are not true Christians. And again, that's probably what you've been taught.

I debated with myself whether or not to give you a long drawn out exposé or a short synopsis. The short won.

The logical conclusion we can draw, if Protestantism and Catholicism were the same forms an imperative question. Why wouldn't they be same Church, why 40,000 and one? Here's is reality, the Catholic Church was commissioned by Christ, sanctified by Christ and given the power to teach and baptize. No other Church was formed by Jesus Christ.

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

He didn't. A human ladder climbing church did.



Our basic nature is animal the same as our mammalian kin. We seek as a matter of instinct self preservation. What sets us apart is our intellect (knowledge of good and evil) which in turn is used to overcome our basic instincts and seek a higher plain made available by the aspect of God within us. So yes, I fight nature. The majority choose self interest and gain at the expense of others as we go beyond our animal kin in seeking more than we need, while few follow the will of God rather than self and in putting
His will ahead of our own, in return do His will in loving all as self. Too bad the religion gentiles built didn't stick with the will of God but instead first whored itself to the Empire, then sought to establish itself as a world power. That is not forwarding the Gospel of the Kingdom, but like the Adversary, mimicking God..

Did you know your icon is upside down? I wonder if it is indicative of your in ability to see reality.

JoeT

 

[timothyu]

Did you know your icon is upside down? I wonder if it is indicative of your in ability to see reality.

It as Jesus who taught us the world of man has it backwards, so in reality I'm right side up.

 

[Jaxxi]

Jesus prayed, "That all of them (His disciples) may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me." John 17:21-23

With the thousands of differing doctrines and countless denominational entities it is difficult to understand how this was ever part of Jesus' plan or design for His Church. If this is true, why are there so many who are okay with the divisions and divisiveness between those who claim to be in Christ?

I am not ok with this division. I think it is stupid. Either we believe in Jesus and the Bible or we don't. Where are all the divisions and different beliefs from? Is the Bible that confusing?

 

[timothyu]

Where are all the divisions and different beliefs from? Is the Bible that confusing?

Just man as usual, jockeying for position in the opportunities to be had by controlling (or freeing) the masses.