What did Jesus mean when He prayed that we would be one in John 17:21?

[timothyu]

Sola scriptura is the cause. Losing the anchor.

Is that what caused the Constantinian church to fragment in three directions long before Luther?

 

[ozso]

Amen, so where should I go? There are so many churches in my town alone. Why, if there is only one "Church?"

For me it's any church that puts Jesus first and offers sound teaching based on that. As long as its foundation is solid, I personally don't care what demonion a church is.

 

[timothyu]

For me it's any church that puts Jesus first and offers sound teaching based on that. As long as its foundation is solid, I personally don't care what demonion a church is.

Defensive of the teachings of Jesus and his Gospel of the Kingdom rather than defensive of a particular church or denomination, would be a good foundation, yes.

I'm surprised the denomination defenders haven't gotten around to holding a super-bowl every year to claim title to denomination of the year. Of course praying in this sport event would be allowed,but would prove fruitless as they pray to the same God to win.

 

[Mountainmike]

The reformation was not a plan, it was the exercise of free will.

But the original beliefs that have weathered 2000 years are essentially unchanged in the Catholic Church. Still there. Eastern Orthodox differ a little, in the main leaving as mystery what the Catholic Church defines.

You assume there is an error. Yet the basic doctrines remain unchanged, If that is so you are accusing Jesus of letting his church go off the rails for 2000 years he promised it would not do.

but for people who believe as the Catholic Church does , you would not have councils or a New Testament.

Meanwhile the post reformstion churches have splintered into 1000 bits, all claiming “ sola scriptura” but only their interpretation is right.
But If sola scriptura is true , then the meaning should not be in such doubt.

The first Christians were not sola scriptura. The scriptura didn’t coalesce for centuries. They were by paradosis - tradition - faith handed down. The test for inclusion in the New Testament was in part whether they conformed to tradition! Councils wielded the power to bind and loose on doctrine disputes.

Because post reformation churches don’t have that authority they drift apart.

do me one favour. Read - Ignatius ( disciple of John) “letter to smyrneans “ .ask Does that describe your church?

Well, God is the author of history. There would be no Reformation if it were not in his plan.
So I think it is his plan, to reform the error of his NT people, as he reformed the error of his OT people in/after the exile.

And in spite of all the splits, the wheat is still the wheat, and the tares are still the tares, and all those tares
are for the purpose of testing whether faith is true or not.

His sheep know his voice, and he does not lose them.

 

[Mountainmike]

Is that what caused the Constantinian church to fragment in three directions long before Luther?

There is no great chasm between orthodox and catholic.
but they leave undefined as mystery what we define. Leave aside arcane matters like Filioque,for example they also believe in purgation, a state where prayer for dead is effective, but regard it not as a place but a state , more as hospital than prison. The differences are very nuanced. On fundamentals such as Eucharist we recognise each other’s.

But Post reformation splinters into polar opposites on every matter of doctrine. salvation , priesthood, baptism , Mary, abortion, Eucharist, end times, role of women, remarriage, homosexuality , even the trinity. There is every conceivable flavour of doctrine all claiming to use the same scripture! Almost none believe what Luther did now. Sola scriptura caused all the fracture.

 

[HenSoma-OneBody]

For me it's any church that puts Jesus first and offers sound teaching based on that. As long as its foundation is solid, I personally don't care what demonion a church is.

Thank you for sharing your valued opinion and insight MMXX. I pray you will be blessed and well as you serve the kingdom of heaven.

 

[timothyu]

You assume there is an error. Yet the basic doctrines remain unchanged, If that is so you are accusing Jesus of letting his church go off the rails for 2000 years he promised it would not do.

but for people who believe as the Catholic Church does , you would not have councils or a New Testament.

The basic doctrines were not those of any gentile dominated church but simply Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom. That didn't get changed, it got sidetracked and altered to ignore part while promoting another.

Jesus let nothing go off the rails. Man did because man still has free will and uses it constantly to serve self. But think about it. How long would the Jewish followers of Jesus lasted or what influence would they have had once the nation was scattered? The time of the gentiles was and decreasingly is for a reason, to forward the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus brought, well into the future at the hands of those God knew would twist things around. God is quite capable of using His enemies for His own purpose... which of course shows who is the smarter of the two no matter how loudly man's religions beat their chests. God's truth hiding in plain sight within the hands of an enemy that at one time kept but withheld God's scripture from the people. Now that Gospel can't be hidden no matter how hard denominations try, because it convicts them of following the will of man over the will of the Father, aligning with the world rather than the Kingdom.
Matthew 20:25

 

[JoeT]

Not in the NT.

Saving faith is always and only in reference to Jesus Christ and his atoning work for the remission of sin.

Are you beginning to see the error Luther had a problem with?
.

There is no error in a Truth taught by the Holy Church. However, you can't say the same about the cacophony individual faiths found in the non-Catholics. "Man is justified by the virtues, since "justice is all virtue," as the Philosopher states (Ethic. v, 1). Now man is justified by faith according to Romans 5:1: "Being justified therefore by faith let us have peace," etc. Therefore faith is a virtue."

There is however, never a lie in faith. Taking any two beliefs, one will be true the other false, or they are both false. Many, so called, 'better' faiths have come along all have been proven false.

Faith is primarily to believe. "No virtue that perfects the intellect is related to the false, considered as the evil of the intellect, as the Philosopher declares (Ethic. vi, 2). Now faith is a virtue that perfects the intellect, as we shall show further on (II-II:4:5). Therefore nothing false can come under it."[St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Secundae, 1]

"The universal Church cannot err, since she is governed by the Holy Ghost, Who is the Spirit of truth: for such was Our Lord's promise to His disciples (John 16:13): "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will teach you all truth." Now the symbol is published by the authority of the universal Church. Therefore it contains nothing defective." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Secundae, 1]

We believe Jesus Christ as taught by the Church. The will becomes formed by faith and acts in faith. Catholics' acts are formed by the Church of the Apostles and in unity with the same.

I saw Luther's problems decades ago, in fact I'm now convinced he was a bit mad or worse possessed. There is no such thing as Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria. The five are not the samething, how then can there be five different things that are one thing? If they are sola, why are there five of them?

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Providing that church is the one Jesus spoke of whose foundation was the truth from the Father and not the ideas and agendas of man.

Jesus Christ is the founder and foundation of the Church built on St. Peter. She was commissioned, ordained and sanctified by Christ, unlike any other, case in point Lutheranism, and Calvinism (agendas, traditions of men).

I forgot to ask, how many foundations did Jesus Christ lay? 40,000?

JoeT

 

[timothyu]

Jesus Christ is the founder and foundation of the Church built on St. Peter.

You mean the foundation He proclaimed Peter had spoken about in the previous verse which said truth only comes from God and not from man, the foundation/rock His church would be built upon. A church meaning gathering/movement, not an institution.

 

[Clare73]

There is no error in a Truth taught by the Holy Church. However,
you can't say the same about the cacophony individual faiths found in the non-Catholics.

Nor do they claim such authority.

"Man is justified by the virtues, since "justice is all virtue," as the Philosopher states (Ethic. v, 1). Now man is justified by faith according to Romans 5:1: "Being justified therefore by faith let us have peace," etc.

Justification by faith gives us peace with God, we are no longer his enemies (Ro 5:10), we are reconciled to him (Eph 2:16).
It is the same "peace on earth" which the heavenly hosts at Jesus' birth praised (Lk 2:13-14).

Therefore faith is a virtue."

There is however, never a lie in faith. Taking any two beliefs, one will be true the other false, or they are both false. Many, so called, 'better' faiths have come along all have been proven false.

Faith is primarily to believe. "No virtue that perfects the intellect is related to the false, considered as the evil of the intellect, as the Philosopher declares (Ethic. vi, 2). Now faith is a virtue that perfects the intellect, as we shall show further on (II-II:4:5). Therefore nothing false can come under it."[St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Secundae, 1]

"The universal Church cannot err, since she is governed by the Holy Ghost, Who is the Spirit of truth: for such was Our Lord's promise to His disciples (John 16:13): "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will teach you all truth." Now the symbol is published by the authority of the universal Church. Therefore it contains nothing defective." [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Secundae, 1]

We believe Jesus Christ as taught by the Church. The will becomes formed by faith and acts in faith. Catholics' acts are formed by the Church of the Apostles and in unity with the same.

I saw Luther's problems decades ago, in fact I'm now convinced he was a bit mad or worse possessed. There is no such thing as Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria. The five are not the samething, how then can there be five different things that are one thing? If they are sola, why are there five of them?

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

You mean the foundation He proclaimed Peter had spoken about in the previous verse which said truth only comes from God and not from man, the foundation/rock His church would be built upon. A church meaning gathering/movement, not an institution.

Christ said of St. Peter, "I will build my church." Where is man's view in that? Please feel free to explain how Christ really didn't mean he would build a church, and that Church would be built on St. Peter.

JoeT

 

[timothyu]

Christ said of St. Peter, "I will build my church." Where is man's view in that? Please feel free to explain how Christ really didn't mean he would build a church, and that Church would be built on St. Peter.

I already showed in the previous verse that it was truth from God and not man (or a man other than Jesus) that the movement/church would be built upon. Read the scripture and make whatever you want of it to serve your purpose and not God's. Each to their own.

 

[JoeT]

Nor do they claim such authority.

The authority lies in God's Truth. But, you would have 40,000 different realities of Jesus Christ who is "truth"?

Justification by faith gives us peace with God, we are no longer his enemies (Ro 5:10), we are reconciled to him (Eph 2:16).

Except in protest and schism. Do protests and schisms rule in truth?

It is the same "peace on earth" which the heavenly hosts at Jesus' birth praised (Lk 2:13-14).

And this applies to our discussion how. . .?

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

I already showed in the previous verse that it was truth from God and not man (or a man other than Jesus) that the movement/church would be built upon. Read the scripture and make whatever you want of it to serve your purpose and not God's. Each to their own.

That's what I said, it did happen by Jesus Christ. He built His Church. He built it on St. Peter. The purpose being served in your argument is the deformation, and continued protest against the House of God.

Every man does not own His own reality. When it is really raining it rains on all men. When it is really cold it is felt by all men. When truth is denied one can only blame himself for catching a spiritual cold.

JoeT

 

[timothyu]

He built it on St. Peter.

Actually He told Peter it would be built upon truth from God (as spoken in the previous verse). Truth which was in the Gospel of the Kingdom and not from the world of man which ran contrary to it. The movement of the Kingdom existed for a short time before man reversed it back to being about this world and our governance of said world.

 

[Clare73]

The authority lies in God's Truth. But, you would have 40,000 different realities of Jesus Christ who is "truth"?


Except in protest and schism. Do protests and schisms rule in truth?


And this applies to our discussion how. . .?

JoeT

I'll give you this, Joe.

Much of evangelicalism is besotted with interpretation of prophecy that makes Israel, rather than Christ! the center of God's plan for mankind.

It pales the error of the Catholic Church regarding justification without meritorious works.

These evangelicals multiply events and things which are the same, so as not to contradict NT teaching which locates these events with the second coming of Christ at the end of time.

The Catholic Church has never engaged in this heresy, and I'm counting on you as the last bastion against this particularly diabolical assault on Jesus Christ.

Don't let me down!

 

[Clare73]

duplicate

 

[JoeT]

I'll give you this, Joe.

Much of evangelicalism is besotted with interpretation of prophecy that makes Israel, rather than Christ! the center of God's plan for mankind.

I'll give you this, Joe.

Much of evangelicalism is besotted with interpretation of prophecy that makes Israel, rather than Christ! the center of God's plan for mankind.

It pales the error of the Catholic Church regarding justification without meritorious works.

These evangelicals multiply events and things which are the same, so as not to contradict NT teaching which locates these events with the second coming of Christ at the end of time.

The Catholic Church has never engaged in this heresy, and I'm counting on you as the last bastion against this particularly diabolical assault on Jesus Christ.

Don't let me down!

It pales the error of the Catholic Church regarding justification without meritorious works.

These evangelicals multiply events and things which are the same, so as not to contradict NT teaching which locates these events with the second coming of Christ at the end of time.

The Catholic Church has never engaged in this heresy, and I'm counting on you as the last bastion against this particularly diabolical assault on Jesus Christ.

Don't let me down!

In Evangelicalism, Protestantism, and reformers we find every declared heresy since Calvary. Each individual in these sects is a religion and theology unto himself. Which circles around to why Christ prayed we are to be one; one in faith, one in heart, one in soul, one in mind. I believe it stems from the protests of 1520 in the philosophies of relativism, rationalism, and nominalism. These philosophies are the reasons for the murders of the French revolution, the first and second world wars, the communist revolution and the immoral revolution started of 2020 which will play out over the next four years. Relativism, rationalism, and nominalism are the cornerstone of the protest against the Church attacking the fundamental reality of political, social and spiritual life. We know them as "liberals" who must attack the Church. Don't think they don't exist in the Church, they are known as modernist, attempting to subjugate the rule of faith to their own will.

Liberalism is the narrow-minded assertion of the individual’s unconditional right to absolute independence from society, social norms, and authority – authority of any type. Ex-Catholics are best at this. These intellectual giants postulate “their” truth, free of the restraints, formed principles or ethics; after all there are no respected authorities, so why should they be constrained.

The dilemma is that those who think as they please will do as they please. Such dysfunctional logic in our culture results in a malfunctioning society. The liberal press unwittingly reports the results of a malformed society in its reports; e.g. murderers freed because they weren’t properly informed of their rights, child rapist set free because they had an unfortunate childhood, women have the ‘right’ to kill children before they are born so they can be liberated – I can only assume they’re being liberated from the consequence of the act, and to defend my freedoms of religion liberals press to ban god from all public places. A humorous absurdity comes to mind; with such logical intellect, one wonders how long it will be before they ban or imprison god – after all, there isn’t an ultimate-authority constraining the liberal. Just imagine the silly vision of Bill Clinton trying to stuff this indescribable, unknowable, blob of un-authority called “god” into a cell saying; “it depends on the definition of what “is, is.”

A lemma to our postulate of liberalism considers that a liberal cannot condemn others – unless and except they are conservatives. Their riots tear down entire cities, rape, and pillage in the name of godlessness.

The liberal must control all matters of our society that have not come from himself; what he can’t control he regulates, what he can’t regulate he taxes, what he can’t tax he bans. Lastly the liberal feels that he alone has the freedom to pass judgment over politics, morals, science or religion and in doing so demands the unrestrained use of the press. Any press not willing to cooperate with the liberal or that is not of like mind is oppressive or objectionable and is to be repressed.

A more concise view of a liberal person is one who holds that there are no absolute truths. “What’s true for you may not be true for me” is the usual refrain. After all, according to liberals, there are no absolutes; especially no absolute truths. But this is illogical; when holding two contradictory beliefs at the same time, both can’t be true. At least one, or possibly both, must be false; obviously both can’t be true at the same time. However, since the liberal is the arbitrator of what is and isn’t the truth we find that the absurd, both truths are true; for the liberal this is the norm. The reason is that truth for the liberal is relative to the beholder, thus truth is whatever the liberal asserts it to be.

Liberals, must by their nature, proclaim themselves supreme arbiter of truth. To do otherwise would relinquish his independence to an authority (other than himself); and in so doing he must acknowledge that authority. All of which is the start of a bad day for the liberal – a cascading catastrophic structural collapse. Proclaiming a truth outside himself is to acknowledge an authority, acknowledging an authority means that he no longer passes judgment (judgments are passed by the authority), having no authority means that he no longer can control, regulate, or tax. Finally, he can no longer assert his independence – obviously a full circle of ruin for the liberal – a really bad hair day.

I might let you down, but the Catholic Church can't let you down being the ramparts of sacraments, battlements of solid truth, and crenels of faithful. If it were to shut down, go underground or the like she would make all of Scripture a lie, as Christ said the gates of hell would not prevail [Cf. Matthew 16:18].

JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Actually He told Peter it would be built upon truth from God (as spoken in the previous verse). Truth which was in the Gospel of the Kingdom and not from the world of man which ran contrary to it. The movement of the Kingdom existed for a short time before man reversed it back to being about this world and our governance of said world.

So, we call Jesus Christ, a landless 'king', "Lord". If His Kingdom is not eternal He failed didn't He? Has he been dethroned by the protester, made to conform to their will? Like Alice's wonderland your reality has a lot of strange places.

Your Lord, and mine, reins over His Kingdom on earth, in purgatory, and in Heaven, every day, every minute, in every moment whether you like it or not.

JoeT