What did Jesus mean when He prayed that we would be one in John 17:21?

[timothyu]

So, we call Jesus Christ, a landless 'king', "Lord". If His Kingdom is not eternal He failed didn't He? Has he been dethroned by the protester, made to conform to their will?

No and no, but it didn't take man long to scurry back to their old self serving ways and abandon His Kingdom to build one of their own. Their way or the highway just like every caesar, institution or despot before them. Unlike man, God gives us a choice.

 

[Strong in Him]

There is no error in a Truth taught by the Holy Church. However, you can't say the same about the cacophony individual faiths found in the non-Catholics.

Why do you and at least one other of your fellow Catholics, not seem to understand that Christianity is THE faith? One Lord, one faith.
Catholics and non Catholics have the same faith and believe the same Gospel.

You are talking about church practices in non Catholics, not different faiths.

 

[Mountainmike]

You fail to explore the poles opposite doctrine on every substantive issue of Protestant denominations since the reformation, all quoting scripture to support their version. There is almost no common core left. It cleary was sola scriptura , empowering all to create their own version, that caused all the fracturing.

Take a basic doctrine. Eucharist of the real flesh and blood , needed to be “ raised up at the last day”, valid ONLY if presided by a succession bishop , profaning it could cause death or sickness.


That was described in disciples of the apostles in the first generation, endured across all Christians from disciple John to reformation. The real flesh was why the Romans thought Christians practiced “ cannibalism” behind closed doors.
“ gnaw my flesh” “ drink my blood” was why many left capernaum in disgust, and Jesus did not call them back!

It was believed by all those who compiled the New Testament.

It continues to this day with catholic’s and orthodox, and a few others.( although the claim to succession of some is questionable)

Only since reformation have a majority of reformation denominations- and non denoms - disavowed it, and have diverged massively, on the basis only their reading of scripture is right!! Ignoring the army of theologians before and since who disagree. So was born the “ symbolic only, non sacramental eucharist”

Sola scriptura was the most potent destructive force to Christian doctrine ever seen. It allowed mans pride and belief in his own intelligence, to destroy what we call the “source and summit of our faith”

None can ignore the Eucharist it says clearly “ to be raised up at the last day” “ some have died”

So How do you do that as non denom? And by what authority have you changed the doctrine of millennia?

sola scriptura, a doctrine born of mans pride, has a lot to answer for,

The basic doctrines were not those of any gentile dominated church but simply Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom. That didn't get changed, it got sidetracked and altered to ignore part while promoting another.

Jesus let nothing go off the rails. Man did because man still has free will and uses it constantly to serve self. But think about it. How long would the Jewish followers of Jesus lasted or what influence would they have had once the nation was scattered? The time of the gentiles was and decreasingly is for a reason, to forward the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus brought, well into the future at the hands of those God knew would twist things around. God is quite capable of using His enemies for His own purpose... which of course shows who is the smarter of the two no matter how loudly man's religions beat their chests. God's truth hiding in plain sight within the hands of an enemy that at one time kept but withheld God's scripture from the people. Now that Gospel can't be hidden no matter how hard denominations try, because it convicts them of following the will of man over the will of the Father, aligning with the world rather than the Kingdom.
Matthew 20:25

 

[timothyu]

"Give us this day our daily bread"

(oh and man's doctrines are not the truth of
God but the words of man. Jesus'doctrines on the other hand in His Gospel of the Kingdom, are truth from the Father and remain constant))

 

[Mountainmike]

Which still fails to answer the question posed. Why do you not do what the apostles handed down? Or for two millennia has been practiced since?

Sola scriptura is a doctrine of men, neither biblical, historical nor even logical.It has a lot to answer for including all the post reformation splintering!

By the way check out the original language. It does not say “ daily” nor is it about food. It is “ supersubstantial” poss “ supernatural”

"Give us this day our daily bread"

(oh and man's doctrines are not the truth of
God but the words of man. Jesus'doctrines on the other hand in His Gospel of the Kingdom, are truth from the Father and remain constant))

 

[timothyu]

Why do you not do what the apostles handed down?

The Apostles forwarded the Gospel of the Kingdom creating a movement of a counter-culture to the world of man, not a religion or religious institution aligned with the world.

 

[JoeT]

Why do you and at least one other of your fellow Catholics, not seem to understand that Christianity is THE faith? One Lord, one faith.
Catholics and non Catholics have the same faith and believe the same Gospel.

You are talking about church practices in non Catholics, not different faiths.

I'm talking about very distinct differences in the root of faith itself. If believing Protestantism and Catholicism is the same faith why then isn't everybody Catholic, after all the 'practice' is but a product of faith. The difference is most profound in the concepts of "justification", the process of being perfected in the state of justice, which is all virtues.

“Justice is uprightness (rectitudo)-of-will kept for its own sake.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Continuing St. Anselm said, “Justice is not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Therefore, we plainly see justification is a movement or process of perfecting God’s Grace of a virtuous Justice wherein, says the Catechism of the Catholic Church, justification is "the sanctification of the whole being" [CCC 1995] which starts in Baptism as an effect of grace, re-introducing man to the mercy of God, weakening the original privation of justice making a new man who is 'born again' into the “rectitude of divine love”. [CCC 1991].

The Catholic concept of justification is an anathema to Protestantism as they receive justification, (sanctity and righteousness) by waving a magic wand saying, "I believe, therefore I am justified"; the magic of "believing". Luther's pile of dung covered in a purely white snow should come to mind - the foulness of it all remains and somehow remains "righteous".

The principles of Catholicism reform the will to the will of God. As I understand the Protestant use of the word "Christianity" usurps this principle for a seat in the Kingdom, akin to gate-crashers. Protesting becomes "the faith", simply hidden under the guise of the word "Christianity". Where Catholicism is aligning the will to the will of God, the Protestant world aligns the world to himself subjugating the will of God to the will of man. The fundamental principle of reform-ism (which is really deform-ism) came straight out of the ungodly "Enlightenment" in a statement widely attributed to Voltaire: "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself".

I've come to view the true authority of Protestantism resides in the subjective reasoning of the intellect, that which is sanctioned from within. Of course an autonomous authority requires ‘freedom from’ morals as well as ‘freedom to’ implement proxy ethics independent of God’s will. Faith becomes a social construct based on the interior of the individual, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Being autonomous the intellect lacks the guidance and authority found in the Catholic Church.

Like the political variant, Liberalism, Protestantism becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).” [Don Felix Sarda y Salvany, "Liberalism Is a Sin"].

In conclusion, Protestantism and Catholicism are not the same belief.

JoeT

 

[HenSoma-OneBody]

I'm talking about very distinct differences in the root of faith itself. If believing Protestantism and Catholicism is the same faith why then isn't everybody Catholic, after all the 'practice' but a product of faith. The difference is most profound in the concepts of "justification", the process of being perfected in the state of justice, which is all virtues.

“Justice is uprightness (rectitudo)-of-will kept for its own sake.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Continuing St. Anselm said, “Justice is not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Therefore, we plainly see justification is a movement or process of perfecting God’s Grace of a virtuous Justice wherein, says the Catechism of the Catholic Church, justification is "the sanctification of the whole being" [CCC 1995] is received in Baptism as an effect of grace, re-introducing man to the mercy of God, weakening the original privation of justice making a new man who is 'born again' into the “rectitude of divine love”. [CCC 1991].

The Catholic concept of justification is an anathema to Protestantism as they receive justification, (sanctity and righteousness) by waving a magic wand saying, "I believe, therefore I am justified"; the magic of "believing". Luther's pile of dung covered in a purely white snow should come to mind - the foulness of it all remains and somehow remains "righteous".

The principles of Catholicism reform the will to the will of God. As I understand the Protestant use of the word "Christianity" usurps this principle for a seat in the Kingdom, akin to gate-crashers. Protesting becomes "the faith", simply hidden under the guise of the word "Christianity". Where Catholicism is aligning the will to the will of God, the Protestant world aligns the world to himself subjugating the will of God to the will of man. The fundamental principle of reform-ism (which is really deform-ism) came straight out of the ungodly "Enlightenment" in a statement widely attributed to Voltaire: "It is contrary to the natural, innate, and inalienable right and liberty and dignity of man, to subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself".

I've come to view the true authority of Protestantism resides in the subjective reasoning of the intellect, that which is sanctioned from within. Of course an autonomous authority requires ‘freedom from’ morals as well as ‘freedom to’ implement proxy ethics independent of God’s will. Faith becomes a social construct based on the interior of the individual, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Being autonomous the intellect lacks the guidance and authority found in the Catholic Church.

Like the political variant, Liberalism, Protestantism becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).” [Don Felix Sarda y Salvany, "Liberalism Is a Sin"].

In conclusion, Protestantism and Catholicism are not the same belief.

JoeT

Hello JoeT, reading your many detailed answers here I have a new question I think you can answer. If everyone on earth was to become a Catholic, would they all go to heaven in the end because they became Catholic? Do all those who do not become a Catholic not go to heaven in the end? If this is true, then all I have to do is become a Catholic and it will all be well with my soul regardless of how I may live my life (even though my intention is to be a good person)?

 

[JoeT]

Hello JoeT, reading your many detailed answers here I have a new question I think you can answer. If everyone on earth was to become a Catholic, would they all go to heaven in the end because they became Catholic?

While it would be a happy thought, I doubt it.

Do all those who do not become a Catholic not go to heaven in the end?

I wish, we all still have sin to contend with. However, one stands a better chance , as it were, to 'survive' in a fortified position of truth as opposed to wondering in the wilderness unprepared for evil's attach.

If this is true, then all I have to do is become a Catholic and it will all be well with my soul regardless of how I may live my life (even though my intention is to be a good person)?

I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question. You might recall Christ said "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." [Matthew 5:48]. It would seem to me that being Catholic would certainly be a step in that direction. After all she is a bastion Christ built for our protection. I guess one could ask if there is another direction. Here I would remind you of another of Christ's words, "How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" [Matthew 7:14]. Don't get lost in the weeds.


JoeT

 

[HenSoma-OneBody]

While it would be a happy thought, I doubt it.
A happy thought? Either they will all go to heaven if they are Catholic or they won't. This is not a thought question, it is a yes or no question.

I wish, we all still have sin to contend with. However, one stands a better chance to, as it were, 'survive' in a fortified position of truth as opposed to wondering in the wilderness upreared for evil's attach.

I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question. You might recall Christ said "Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect." [Matthew 5:48]. It would seem to me that being Catholic would certainly be a step in that direction. After all she is a bastion Christ built for our protection. I guess one could ask if there is another direction. Here I would remind you of another of Christ's words, "
How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!" [Matthew 7:14]. Don't get lost in the weeds.


JoeT

 

[JoeT]

Is there a question here?

 

[HenSoma-OneBody]

Is there a question here?

Of course, as previously stated, "If everyone on earth was to become a Catholic, would they all go to heaven in the end because they became Catholic?" Is it that simple? Many claim to be Catholic, what are the qualifiers?

 

[Mountainmike]

Im not trying to pick an argument with you timothy!
Just trying to understand, and your answers are not really answering the question.

I used the eucharist as an example of something that was well defined for the first millenium, the understanding of gospel evidenced in the writings of the first disciples of the apostles.

Only since the reformation have denominations to regard it differently primarily because they have revisited scripture, using sola scriptura, and the intepretation they have is completely different from pre reformation, which handed the meaning down with the scripture as tradition "paradosis" faith handed down.

It is a case in point of my contention that sola scriptura is responsible for all of the splits since reformation and the reason why the church is not one. Alternative views and doctrines by reinterpretation of scripture without the tradition or authority that maintained the dfocrtine..

So questions - I am interested to know.

Do you regard the eucharist as other than real presence sacrament valid only if presided or authorised by a succession bishop?

If not do you regard the first millenium including disciples of apostles as apostasized?

What do you think those verses in say john 6.50++ mean
and by what authority is your interpretation right when all else are wrong?

These are the questions that divide us!

Just interested in your views and why you hold them?

I was protestant/evangelical once. It is these questions that brought me back to Rome.

The Apostles forwarded the Gospel of the Kingdom creating a movement of a counter-culture to the world of man, not a religion or religious institution aligned with the world.

 

[JoeT]

Of course, as previously stated, "If everyone on earth was to become a Catholic, would they all go to heaven in the end because they became Catholic?" Is it that simple?

It is a simple question that only requires one to know the mind of God. When I get there, I'll let you know. But, I did say "I doubt it"

Many claim to be Catholic, what are the qualifiers?

Yes there are many faux Catholics, cafeteria Catholics, modernists and out and out traitor Catholics. Which means what?

JoeT

 

[HenSoma-OneBody]

It is a simple question that only requires one to know the mind of God. When I get there, I'll let you know. But, I did say "I doubt it"




Yes there are many faux Catholics, cafeteria Catholics, modernists and out and out traitor Catholics. Which means what?

JoeT

I guess my question was not discernable, sorry. I am asking plainly for you to help me, what must I do to be a true Catholic and not one of those others as you so clearly identified? If being a true Catholic is how one get's into heaven, I need to know what that menas?

 

[Clare73]

The authority lies in God's Truth. But, you would have 40,000 different realities of Jesus Christ who is "truth"?
Except in protest and schism. Do protests and schisms rule in truth?

Paul locates peace with God only in justification, nowhere else.

And this applies to our discussion how. . .?

Lagniappe. . .

 

[JoeT]

I guess my question was not discernible, sorry. I am asking plainly for you to help me, what must I do to be a true Catholic and not one of those others as you so clearly identified? If being a true Catholic is how one gets into heaven, I need to know what that means?

.

Its a journey, that begins in Baptism, justification, then proceeds to Christ's most perfect prayer, "Give us this day our supersubstantial bread." [Matthew 6:11] and on to the eternal life abiding in Christ [John 6:57] bound to perfection [Colossians 3:14] unto the end being in His perfection [Matthew 5:48] for its own sake in unending prayer.

That said, you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical, will we hear the real reason for quiz?

JoeT

 

[HenSoma-OneBody]

.

Its a journey, that begins in Baptism, justification, then proceeds to Christ's most perfect prayer, "Give us this day our supersubstantial bread." [Matthew 6:11] and on to the eternal live abiding in Christ [John 6:57] bound to perfection [Colossians 3:14] unto the end being in His perfection [Matthew 5:48] for its own sake in unending prayer.

That said, you'll have to forgive me for being skeptical, will we hear the real reason for quiz?

JoeT

That answers the real question to the quiz, there are so many differing answers and it is hard to find the truth.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm talking about very distinct differences in the root of faith itself.

Such as?

I asked a Catholic I was debating with in another thread if he could show me the parts of the Gospel that Protestants did not agree with - not the doctrines about Mary or Peter; the Gospel. I haven't yet had an answer.
I've asked if Catholics believe THE Gospel - about Jesus, the eternal Word, made flesh, born of the Virgin Mary, lived, taught and healed, died for our sins, raised, ascended, sent his Holy Spirit to all believers and will return again. I haven't yet had an answer.
I've asked how, if non Catholics believe the same Gospel as Catholics, trust in the same Triune God, accept the same Saviour, receive the same Spirit, read, and quote from the same Scriptures and are equally children of God, how one group can be the "true church" and the others "not true Christians". I haven't yet had an answer.

If believing Protestantism and Catholicism is the same faith why then isn't everybody Catholic,

I don't believe "Protestantism" OR "Catholicism", I believe Jesus - don't know about you.

I am certain that Catholics believe the Gospel, just as non Catholics do.
The reasons I am not a Catholic are;
a) Catholicism seems to be about the Gospel + . The Gospel is not enough, it's the Gospel + Peter's primacy, Mary's position and you have to believe what we believe about the sacraments.
b) I've been made to feel most unwelcome in a Catholic church - and this was during the week of prayer for Christian unity, which the Catholic church chose to join in with! Ditto a Catholic retreat centre which advertised that it welcomed people from all Christian churches - and then refused to let me take communion. I got the impression that I could have been an ex prisoner, and as long as I was Catholic that would have been fine. My "sin" was to be a born again Christian who happened to worship in a Methodist church.
c) Catholics on these forums have been derogatory and occasionally rude about my being a non Catholic and sometimes questioned my salvation.

The difference is most profound in the concepts of "justification", the process of being perfected in the state of justice, which is all virtues.

I think a lot of Christians don't know, or care, about "concepts of justification; they just disagree with some Catholic practices and are made to feel 2nd class Christians (if Christians at all) when they question them.

“Justice is uprightness (rectitudo)-of-will kept for its own sake.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Continuing St. Anselm said, “Justice is not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Therefore, we plainly see justification is a movement or process of perfecting God’s Grace of a virtuous Justice wherein, says the Catechism of the Catholic Church, justification is "the sanctification of the whole being" [CCC 1995] which starts in Baptism as an effect of grace, re-introducing man to the mercy of God, weakening the original privation of justice making a new man who is 'born again' into the “rectitude of divine love”. [CCC 1991].

So you've quoted St Anselm, how about quoting Scripture?

The Catholic concept of justification is an anathema to Protestantism as they receive justification, (sanctity and righteousness) by waving a magic wand saying, "I believe, therefore I am justified";

Why do you exaggerate/make stuff up?
Who has ever said that anything in Christianity or the church is the result of someone "waving a magic wand"? Why does that even come into it?

the magic of "believing".

I thought it was called faith?
Christ became sin for us so that, in him, we might become the righteousness of God, 2 Corinthians 5:21.
That's not magic, that's an awesome fact.

Luther's pile of dung covered in a purely white snow should come to mind - the foulness of it all remains and somehow remains "righteous".

Scripture says that if we receive, believe in and accept Christ and repent of our sins, we die to sin; crucified with him, Romans 6:2-4 It says that in Christ we are new creations, 2 Corinthians 5:17, it says that we are clothed ourselves with Christ, Galatians 3:27 and are to put on our new selves, Ephesians 4:24, Colossians 3:10.

If you are saying that someone cannot clothe themselves with Christ while they are still unbelievers and unrepentant sinners, you are correct - that's why repentance and belief come first.
Not waving silly magic wands.

As I understand the Protestant use of the word "Christianity" usurps this principle for a seat in the Kingdom, akin to gate-crashers.

I don't know what you are talking about - you haven't given an example, nor have you shown any evidence.

Protesting becomes "the faith", simply hidden under the guise of the word "Christianity".

The Christian faith is the Gospel - simples.

Where Catholicism is aligning the will to the will of God, the Protestant world aligns the world to himself subjugating the will of God to the will of man.

So you're saying that Protestants ignore all the verses about knowing and doing God's will?
We don't pray "thy will be done", or if we do then we don't mean it; and we spend our time telling God he should do what WE want?

Rubbish.

I've come to view the true authority of Protestantism resides in the subjective reasoning of the intellect, that which is sanctioned from within. Of course an autonomous authority requires ‘freedom from’ morals as well as ‘freedom to’ implement proxy ethics independent of God’s will. Faith becomes a social construct based on the interior of the individual, changing from time to time depending on expediency. Being autonomous the intellect lacks the guidance and authority found in the Catholic Church.

Like the political variant, Liberalism, Protestantism becomes the program of rationalism; where “Free thought begets free morals, or immorality- Restraint is thrown off and a free rein given to the passions. WHOEVER THINKS WHAT HE PLEASES WILL DO WHAT HE PLEASES (sic).” [Don Felix Sarda y Salvany, "Liberalism Is a Sin"].

Never mind the "clever" words and erudite quotations; do Catholics and Protestants believe the same Gospel and trust in the same Saviour?

 

[JoeT]

Paul locates peace with God only in justification, nowhere else.

True, but not the 'redefined' liberal meaning of justification, rather a justification that is "uprightness (rectitudo)-of-will kept for its own sake."

Lagniappe. . .

How is Catholicism a special gift? The Catholic Church is the only True gift of God's mercy, she is herself a sacrament. The 40,000 others do not bring us to unity by virtue of their ever escalating numbers which belie their evil source.

JoeT