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What did it all started with?

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by alexanderfrank1985, Apr 29, 2021.

  1. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Do you enjoy repeating yourself?
    Lol, I attacked what? I didn't attack anything.
    I'm sure this technology is inevitable, but I don't have to like it.
    But hey, it let's you be a keyboard warrior, so I can see why you like it.
     
  2. sjastro

    sjastro Newbie

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    Let me remind you this is what you wrote;
    Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word hate.
    Hate is not an endearing word nor is it neutral.
    It conveys hostility, aggression, malice, anger to name a few.

    Since you loathe technological progress which another definition, I suggest for consistency you submit your posts on scraps of paper and sent by carrier pigeon.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  3. Hans Blaster

    Hans Blaster On campaign in Georgia

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    All of existance, even our mere Universe are *just* a little bit bigger than this planet.

    Of course the Earth had a beginning, it's only 4.5 Gyr old. Much younger than the Universe.
     
  4. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    To propose the universe has existed forever, you have to ignore that it's expanding or explain how it could expand forever without having a point to expand from.
     
  5. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor Supporter

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    I have no problem with the Universe self-creating. That's what we see happening.
     
  6. Hans Blaster

    Hans Blaster On campaign in Georgia

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    Is anyone actually proposing that *our* Universe (you know, the expanding one) has been around "forever"?

    I fear a looseness of terminology has crept in.
     
  7. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Abra-ca-dapra! Magic universe makes itself from nothing!
     
  8. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's exactly what they are proposing. Even if you propose this universe is one of many, where does that get you? Universes magically spawning other universes into eternity past is no more scientific than just saying that God did it.
     
  9. Hans Blaster

    Hans Blaster On campaign in Georgia

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    Who exactly is making that claim? In this thread? Cited references?
     
  10. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    post
    #70
    Eternal matter.
     
  11. sjastro

    sjastro Newbie

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    As expected my explanation of 'nothing' was way beyond your paygrade to understand.
    In a nutshell it explained there is always a 'something' in 'nothing' which is the vacuum energy of a field.
    This has been confirmed by experiments such as virtual particles popping out of 'nothing' and exerting pressure on parallel plates in a vacuum which is the Casimir force.

    Here is another example.
    A free neutron (n) decays to a proton (p) according to the reaction.
    n → p + e⁻ + ῡₑ where e⁻ and ῡₑ are the electron and antineutrino respectively.
    This is a straightforward reaction where energy is conserved.

    When we look at the reaction at a more fundamental level using a Feynman diagram things look decidedly weird.

    [​IMG]

    In the diagram the W⁻ boson which is the carrier for the weak force pops into and out of existence when a neutron decays into a proton and hangs around with a half life of Δt ≈ 3 x 10⁻²⁵ s.
    Since its half life is so short, using the energy-time version of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, its mass is around 80X greater than the neutron which has been confirmed by experiment.
    So where did the mass of the W⁻ boson come from; certainly not from the neutron but from the (Higgs) vacuum energy of the field.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2021
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  12. Hans Blaster

    Hans Blaster On campaign in Georgia

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    You'd said that the laws of physics couldn't pop out of nothing, and in response post #70 says that *THE LAWS OF PHYSICS* could have always existed. That is not the same as an eternal universe or matter.
     
  13. FrumiousBandersnatch

    FrumiousBandersnatch Well-Known Member

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    Nothing about matter there. Eternal fundamental laws of physics.
     
  14. The happy Objectivist

    The happy Objectivist Active Member

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    Scientific laws are conceptual in nature and so yes they do require someone to create those conceptual integrations. Human beings have the capability to form conceptual integrations. Scientific laws are universal generalizations. They are the product of induction which Humans have the ability to do. The facts which these generalizations identify are not creations. They are inherent in nature, nature being the realm of things acting and interacting with each other according to their natures or identities.

    As far as existence needing a cause, this statement commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. The principle of causality presupposes something that acts. In order for something to act it must first exist. Therefore as soon as you propose a cause you are proposing existence. In other words, causality presupposes existence and not the other way around.

    The type of action a thing can perform is determined by the nature or identity of the thing that acts. Therefore the first cause is existence itself since existence and identity are one and the same. To exist is to be something specific, to have an identity and to have an identity is to exist. You could never say that something exists but it has no identity and you could never say that something has identity but it doesn't exist. There is a 100% concurrence of identity and existence.
     
  15. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    How can you have physics unless something exists?
     
  16. renniks

    renniks Well-Known Member

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    So again we have eternal matter. Which is no different than believing in an eternal being.
     
  17. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, but they can be interchangeable, and can switch or change forms, and it can be compacted and/or expanded, etc, so maybe the universe came from what is already here, etc, but then, if that is the case, then how did it come to be there/here in the first place, etc...?

    Anyway...

    God Bless!
     
  18. The happy Objectivist

    The happy Objectivist Active Member

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    So then if it's no different, we don't need to posit a creator since we know that matter and energy exist and can be eternal. God is just an extra, unwarranted step.

    Existence is a primary, irreducible fact. What some call a brute fact. That means it can't be analyzed or explained in terms of antecedent facts. It just is. You either accept that fact or you don't. Because knowledge is heirarchical, it means that it has a starting point. That starting point can only be existence.

    The only alternative is to start with non-existence, which is what you do when you seek a cause for existence. This is such simple logic that I wonder that this question of the origins of existence persists.
     
  19. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    But that's just the thing, we don't think anything (existence) can come from non-existence, etc...?

    So we wonder why some of your's "denial" persists, etc...?

    God Bless!
     
  20. Neogaia777

    Neogaia777 Disciple Supporter

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    Oh, and BTW, you kind of just now said that anything that exists has to come from something that either does or did (always) exist...?

    Don't know if you caught that or fully realized that, etc...?

    And we 100% completely agree with you, etc...

    God Bless!
     
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