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What denominations believe in Unconditional Election?

JohnB445

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Yes, at least Reformed Baptist, which is what John Piper is, who has his church minutes from my house. I have been there on a few occasions.
I occasionally watch his videos and read his articles. I think he is one of the more popular ones.
 
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AlexB23

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I have never seen a Calvinist Church in person, I have only seen Presbyterian, which I know teaches Unconditional Election.

Are there any others that teach this?
Can I plug your question into the artificial intelligence? It is my new addiction. :)
 
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Mark Quayle

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I have never seen a Calvinist Church in person, I have only seen Presbyterian, which I know teaches Unconditional Election.

Are there any others that teach this?
There are many, besides Reformed and Calvinist churches that teach it, but not by that terminology.
 
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AlexB23

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Here is what the machine had to say, @JohnB445 . It basically said the same thing as others here.

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The Liturgist

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I have never seen a Calvinist Church in person, I have only seen Presbyterian, which I know teaches Unconditional Election.

Are there any others that teach this?

Presbyterian churches are usually Calvinist, to the point where in the US the two terms are almost synonymous. @hedrick out of curioisity are there any parishes in the PCUSA which do not embrace at least some form of Calvinism?
 
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BobRyan

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I have never seen a Calvinist Church in person, I have only seen Presbyterian, which I know teaches Unconditional Election.

Are there any others that teach this?
I thought all Presbyterian churches were Calvinist. 3 pt, 4pt or 5 pt.

What did I miss?

Do you actually have the Arminian free-will group in the Presbyterian church?

Presbyterian churches are usually Calvinist, to the point where in the US the two terms are almost synonymous.
ahhh--- yes ... that is more like it.
 
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The Liturgist

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There is also Dutch Reformed. I think you might want to do a Google search or look on Wikipedia as well for "Calvinist Denominations".

Indeed, Rev. Robert Schuller, memory eternal, of the Crystal Cathedral, was with the Reformed Church in America, which was overall more liberal than the Presbyterian Church in America that Dr. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale was a member of, the equivalent Presbyterian denomination being the PCUSA.

However, really, both denominational are Calvinist, the main difference being the Reformed churches are descended from the Continental Reformed churches (not just Dutch, but Swiss and German, although my old the UCC (the United Church of Christ, not the United Church of Canada*) is a result of a merger between the Congregationalists and the Evangelical Reformed church, comprised of Prussian Calvinist churches, to which the Prussian Lutherans had been forcibly united in Prussia, but who separated shortly after arriving in North America, the Lutherans becoming the LCMS/LCC of which my dear friends @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian are members. Although I do wish the Lutheran Church of Canada had opted for the name “Lutheran Church Manitoba Synod” so that the same initials could be used on both sides of the border.

For that matter, imagine how a Canadian version of the Gateway Arch would contributed to tourism in Winnipeg. You could even call Manitoba the “Show Me Province.” XD **

* The United Church of Canada does also consist of a mixture of Presbyterian and Congregational churches, but it also consists of all former Canadian Methodist churches, which might well be the largest group, since Toronto was, a hundred years ago, known as “Methodist Rome.” Conversely all churches in the UCC are descended from Calvinist churches, either Congregationalist or Prussian Evangelical Reformed, with the exception of certain recent admissions like the Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, which joined because of the left-wing politics which now define the denominations (the Cathedral of Hope was part of the Metropolitan Community Church, which has an episcopal polity and a belief system organized around the pervasive error of contemporary liberal theology, that homosexuality is not inherently immoral). I think the early century traditionalists Congregationalists who reformed the church from Puritanism would be as upset about this as they were about the Unitarians seizing control of so many Congregationalist parishes in New England. Indeed the only traditional Congregationalist church remaining in Boston is Park Street Church, which my friends who have known me for a long time on CF.com will recall that I greatly love (the current pastor is not only an ardent traditionalist, but a great preacher - while I would prefer it if he used a lectionary, he nonetheless did an expositional sermon series in the Sundays before Christmas in 2022 that focused on Leviticus, which was brilliant, in terms of showing the Christological prophecy in that book, which is one book from the Pentateuch that I have always felt is particularly fascinating and underrated. In my youth I was likewise fascinated with Numbers as it seemed kind of an underdog among the books of the Pentateuch.

**I really wish I could have visited Winnipeg in the early 1990s when despite its relative size, the airport was home to a large number of working Curtiss C-46 Commando and Douglas DC-3/C-47 Skytrain/Dakota aircraft for use in transportation into the lightly populated northern reaches of the province. Although I think Buffalo Airways still has two of them in service in Yellowknife in the NWT, but sadly they have retired the DC-4/C-54, ironically in favor of Lockheed Electras, which reminds me of when the aerial firefighter company Aero Union retired all but two of its DC-4s in favor of Lockheed P-3s (the military version of the electra) in the 1990s, but they were later shut down by CalFire for safety reasons. Right now there is a glut of retired Douglas DC-4, DC-6 and DC-7 propliners that have rcently been withdrawn from bush cargo or safety service that are up for sale, and it would be a tragedy if they got scrapped - I digress, but perhaps those with an interest in aviation heritage might pray that does not happen.
 
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The Liturgist

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I thought all Presbyterian churches were Calvinist.

Presbyterianism is just a system of church policy. But most churches which call themselves Presbyterian were indeed at least historically following in the Scottish Reformed or English Reformed tradition. Whereas those that call themselves Reformed tend to be following in the Dutch Reformed or Swiss Reformed or German Reformed, “Continental” tradition. Which differs only in terms of the preferred confession (Belgic or Hiedelberg vs. Westminster) and the use of the word “Classis” (literally translated as “fleet”) instead of “Presbytery.”
 
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BobRyan

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Presbyterianism is just a system of church policy. But most churches which call themselves Presbyterian were indeed at least historically following in the Scottish Reformed or English Reformed tradition. Whereas those that call themselves Reformed tend to be following in the Dutch Reformed or Swiss Reformed or German Reformed, “Continental” tradition. Which differs only in terms of the preferred confession (Belgic or Hiedelberg vs. Westminster) and the use of the word “Classis” (literally translated as “fleet”) instead of “Presbytery.”
Interesting

from: Two Major Streams of Reformed Theology

"Two major streams of Reformed theology developed out of the work of John Calvin: the Scottish Calvinist stream and the Dutch Reformed stream. The Scottish tradition has a strong focus on doctrines of salvation and the ordo salutis (order of salvation). But the Dutch Reformed tradition also emphasizes worldviews, cultural engagement, and the lordship"

"Knox traveled to John Calvin’s base of operations in Geneva, Switzerland. There Knox became enamored with the doctrine of predestination. Knox eventually returned and became the leading figure in founding the Church of Scotland, the origin of Presbyterianism."
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Indeed, Rev. Robert Schuller, memory eternal, of the Crystal Cathedral, was with the Reformed Church in America, which was overall more liberal than the Presbyterian Church in America that Dr. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale was a member of, the equivalent Presbyterian denomination being the PCUSA.
I think Schuller taught "Prosperity Gospel" whereby one must live just so, and contribute lots in order to please God; this is not eternal security. His Church was a cult of personality, that failed when he could no longer control it. Interesting that the Catholic Church ended up picking up his pieces.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think Schuller taught "Prosperity Gospel" whereby one must live just so, and contribute lots in order to please God; this is not eternal security. His Church was a cult of personality, that failed when he could no longer control it. Interesting that the Catholic Church ended up picking up his pieces.

I don’t think Schuller taught the Prosperity Gospel. If he did, I never heard it, and I used to watch him when I was ill. Furthermore, he was also friends with Archbishop Fulton Sheen, the pious Roman Catholic televangelist, who I wish the Roman Catholics would beatify, and the two of them collaborated on multiple occasions.

Rather, my understanding is the reason why the Crystal Cathedral went bankrupt occurred towards the end of his life (indeed, I lived nearby at the time and was something of a witness to these events), and resulted from excessive expenditure on their annual Nativity production, which was a lavish production featuring flying angels and other special effects, beautiful hymns, dance routines, and live animals, including three magnificent camels, the largest and most impressive of which was a white dromedary of which was ridden on by Rev. Schuller himself if I recall (or else by a rather dapper Dutch-looking gentleman who looked a lot like Schuller), on which the Three Magi made their appearance, with the hymn “We three Kings…” This show was quite beautiful, but it had lost its novelty factor, and it cost a fortune to stage, for reasons that should be obvious, and it was due to that, and other excesses of expenditure, that the church went bankrupt. The situation was not helped by his retirement, although on the other hand, he was not replaced by someone who disagreed with many of his views and who was also grossly immoral, but by his own son, who is a decent enough man, who was well-liked.

And indeed while the congregation did have to sell the Crystal Cathedral to the RCC, who made it an actual Cathedral, which was rather good, since technically having a presbyterian polity, the RCA and its more conservative offshoots like the CRC do not have cathedrals per se, they were able to buy a decent church. And furthermore, their cemetary remains intact at the Crystal Cathedral site and is being maintained by the Roman Catholics. The whole sale actually was done in a manner very friendly to the Crystal Cathedral community and in a manner that reflected the historically good relations that Rev. Schuller had with the Roman Catholics.

Now that being said, it is quite possible he preached something along the lines of the Prosperity Gospel and I didn’t notice it, or alternately in his preaching encouraged donations to support his ministry in a manner that you and I would regard as rather too aggressive, but which is actually unfortunately fairly common in large swathes of Protestantism. For example, most Charismatic and Pentecostal churches, even those which do not embrace the Prosperity Gospel or the whole Word of Faith concept like Joel Osteen, are nonetheless rather too aggressive in encouraging people to donate. I recall some cringeworthy moments with Pat Robertson, who I liked and supported for his work in advocating for traditional conservative family values, but whose charismatic approach to the ministry I am obviously not a fan of.

But there is a clear distinction between clergy in Protestant and Restorationist churches who are too aggressive in soliciting donations (I think it is inappropriate to even mention financial contributions in the context of a sermon or homily, except in a limited way when the appointed scripture lesson in the lectionary directly relates to the importance of almsgiving, and in those cases, it should be stressed how there are forms of almsgiving which do not require giving money, but rather providing other forms of material assistance to the poor and the suffering). I also, for that matter, am among those who opposes passing collection plates during the main Eucharistic liturgy, and I am also opposed to placing such plates, which contain coins and currency, on the Holy Table of the Altar as a means of blessing them - I think this is grossly inappropriate as the Altar or Holy Table should be reserved for functions related to what Lutherans would call the ministry of Word and Sacrament (specifically, I like the Orthodox approach of keeping the Evangelion, or Gospel book, on the altar, along with the Gifts to be consecrated, and also a tabernacle for the reservation of the consecrated Eucharist to allow for the efficient communion of the sick and the celebration of the pre-sanctified liturgy, and certain other material, for example, in Western churches, it is traditional to have a Lutheran Altar Book or cards containing the words of parts of the service on the Holy Table, which is in some uses equipped with gradines, which also feature prominently in Syriac Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic altars (while the Copts and Ethiopians and Eastern Orthodox use a flat, square altar table, and the Anglicans use an altar table which is flat).

I also believe altars should contain the relics of martyrs as per the canons of the early church, but unfortunately most Protestant churches aren’t doing this, and implementation of such a measure would be a slow going because while there have been many Protestant martyrs, there has not been as much of an effort to collect their relics, and in some cases, for example, St. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the most famous Lutheran martyr of the 20th century, the Nazis destroyed any possible relics of his remains by cremating him, although possessions of a saint also constitute relics, and it would be very meet, for example, to incorporate a BIble he owned, or a fragment of it, into an altar of a Lutheran church, I think.

But even in the absence of that, I will say that a disproportionate number of the world’s most beautiful altars are the work of Evangelical Catholic Lutherans and High Church Anglo Catholics, even if some of them are now under the control of liberal churches of the Porvoo Communion such as the Church of Sweden, the Church of Norway, the Evangelical Church of Germany and the Church of England (although there are conservative factions within the C of E that retain substantial power, influence and autonomy, whereas the left wing domination of the continental Lutheran churches in Western Europe is nearly complete - it is only in Eastern Europe where one will find Lutheran churches that are members of the same group of confessional churches as the LCMS, as well as the less liberal members of the LWF such as the Lutheran Church of Finland, which is still extremely liberal, merely less liberal than its counterparts in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, etc). However, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Latvia, which was subjected to massive abuse following voting with a 77% majority to adhere to Confessional Lutheranism regarding ordinations, gives one room to hope, and it has also been growing since the end of communism. Likewise, the tiny Evangelical Lutheran Church in Lithuania is also very traditional (Lithuania has always been a majority Catholic country with a substantial Orthodox minority, divided between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Polish Orthodox Church).

Unfortunately the Estonian Lutheran Church is much more liberal, and is not a part of the International Lutheran Council like the LCMS and LCC. I don’t think the Estonian church ever escaped the destructive influence that happened with many churches behind the Iron Curtain, and for this reason, Estonia, histoircally a majority Lutheran country, is now majority Atheist, with one of the lowest rates of church attendance in Europe, and the Estonian Orthodox, who are themselves divided by a schism caused by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, outnumber the Lutherans two to one. So my first priority as far as Estonia is concerned is to see the Orthodox reunited around the more traditional elements (the group that associated itself with the EP is, along with the Church of Finland, one of only two Eastern Orthodox churches to use the Gregorian calendar, and lacks the excuse the Finns have, in that the adoption of the Gregorian calendar was really forced on them by the government of Finland which wanted the convenience of having all of the holidays synchronized, which is the sort of idea that sounds good on paper, until one realizes the logistical advantages of not doing it that way, for example, in Jerusalem, on those years when Pascha is the same on both the Julian and the Gregorian calendar, the already overcrowded situation on the Via de la Rosa, and at the Holy Sepulchre and other pilgrimage sites becomes twice as bad, since you now have Catholics and Protestants vying to use the space at the same time as the Orthodox. The Armenians make things much easier for Christmas, since they are the only ancient church to still celebrate Christmas and the Baptism of Christ as one feast, on January 6th, and in Jerusalem, all Orthodox churches use the Julian calendar, which results in the Armenians, who are as numerous as the Greeks, and more numerous than the Latins, celebrating the Nativity of our Lord on January 18th, which means that unlike with Pascha and Holy Week, there is much less of a problem with overcrowding for Christmas (also, the Syriac Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox have their own small chapels in the Holy Sepulchre, so for those Christians who are celebrating the Nativity on December 25th on the Julian Calendar, they are doing it in different parts of the Basillica).

But there are new confessional Lutheran churches in Norway, Belgium and elsewhere, which are.

*This happened at Coral Ridge (the successor chosen by the ruling elders of the church stopped the various programs of public advocacy that had attracted so many people to Coral Ridge, and he also introduced contemporary praise and worship music, and cut back on the excellent classical music program established by Dr. James Kennedy, memory eternal, and then when he felt politically threatened by Dr. Kennedy’s daughter, he uncanonically excommunicated her, and fired most of the people associated with classical music, in violation of the rules of the local presbytery, resulting in the formation of a temporary church of Dr. Kennedy’s supporters in exile, that met at a local high school, while the two sides fought each other within the PCA, with Tchividian, who was probably selected because he was a son-in-law of Billy Graham who happened to posess the right qualifications, but who completely failed to continue any of the programs such as the televangelism for which the church was known, being found to have violated the PCA’s equivalent of canon law (they don’t call them as such; I can’t remember what they do call them, and I also no longer care, since I am tired of Protestant denominations renaming things for no valid reason
 
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The Liturgist

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Interesting

from: Two Major Streams of Reformed Theology

"Two major streams of Reformed theology developed out of the work of John Calvin: the Scottish Calvinist stream and the Dutch Reformed stream. The Scottish tradition has a strong focus on doctrines of salvation and the ordo salutis (order of salvation). But the Dutch Reformed tradition also emphasizes worldviews, cultural engagement, and the lordship"

"Knox traveled to John Calvin’s base of operations in Geneva, Switzerland. There Knox became enamored with the doctrine of predestination. Knox eventually returned and became the leading figure in founding the Church of Scotland, the origin of Presbyterianism."

I looked at that website but found it to be a gross oversimplification, a false dichotomy. It completely ignored Swiss Reformed theology, and Switzerland is not only where it all began (Geneva being home to Calvin, and Zurich home to his rival Zwingli), but also where arguably the most important Reformed theologian of the past 150 years lived, Karl Barth, author of Church Dogmatics. And it also completely ignored the German Reformed churches, such as the Prussian church, which was extremely influential, given that prior to WWI, Prussia was the most powerful state in Continental Europe, and the united German Empire had been united as a result of Prussian military and political efforts led by the brilliant Chancellor Otto von Bismarck (who Kaiser Wilhelm II stupidly dismissed shortly after his coronation in 1892; of course Bismarck was nearing the end of his life, but he was still sharp, and was also entirely opposed to the prospect of a Great War between the different major powers, and had done much, along with Kaiser Franz Josef of Austria, to preclude such a possibility, work which was subsequently undone through political intrigues by most of the belligerents in WWI, except for certain countries which attempted, and usually failed, to remain neutral).

It also mischaracterized the nature of Scottish and English Presbyterianism, and ignored the very important role Presbyterianism has played in Ireland, particularly in Ulster, as a foundational element of the culture of the Ulstermen vs. the Irish Catholics. And it ignored other Calvinist and Reformed churches and traditions which are worthy of note, such as the Covenanting Presbyterians of Scotland and North America, the Hungarian Reformed Church, the Huguenots, the Vaudois (Waldensians) in France, Italy, Switzerland and the US, and the synthesis of these different elements in American Calvinism.

It also neglects to mention that the idea of predestination originated with the Dutch Calvinists and was emphasized so strongly by the Reformed church there, compared even to the Scottish Presbyterians, that the result was the emergence of the Remonstrant Church led by Arminius, which still exists to this day, and whose name became a byword for non-Calvinist theology, even when that theology was less influenced by Arminius and more influenced by the Synergism of the Early Church and the Eastern Orthodox (which we see among many Anglicans and other Protestants, and also in Methodism, I would argue given the well-documented connections between John Wesley and both the Greek Orthodox and Arminianism, that his soteriology was initially based on Arminianism, but verified and refined by Orthodoxy.
 
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BobRyan

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I looked at that website but found it to be a gross oversimplification, a false dichotomy. It completely ignored Swiss Reformed theology, and Switzerland is not only where it all began (Geneva being home to Calvin, and Zurich home to his rival Zwingli),
And then there is this one

but also where arguably the most important Reformed theologian of the past 150 years lived, Karl Barth, author of Church Dogmatics.
Barth 10 May 1886 – 10 December 1968) Swiss Reformed Theology -- is a bit late for the origins of the Reformed movement and Calvinsm
And it also completely ignored the German Reformed churches, such as the Prussian church, which was extremely influential, given that prior to WWI, Prussia was the most powerful state
You seem to be using 20th century entities to identify the roots of Calvinism and its initial branches.
 
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The Liturgist

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Literally by the same author, and spouting the same false dichotomy between Scottish and Dutch traditions of Reformed theology.

About the only issues I agree with the author on, as a former pastor in a liberal Reformed denomination trained a liberal Reformed seminary, and consequently as someone with some knowledge of Calvinism and Reformed theology, are that “ Emphasis on the five points of Calvinism fails to capture the full breadth of the heritage of Reformed thought,” which is certainly true, particularly considering that the “Five Points” of “TULIP” were not even defined by John Calvin himself, but emerged at the Synod of Dort, and also that Dutch and Scottish Reformed theology are complementary.

Barth 10 May 1886 – 10 December 1968) Swiss Reformed Theology -- is a bit late for the origins of the Reformed movement and Calvinsm

You seem to be using 20th century entities to identify the roots of Calvinism and its initial branches.

Forgive me, but that’s a gross mischaracterization of my post. As I said in my post, regarding Swiss Calvinism, John Calvin was a French emigre to Switzerland, who wound up leading the Church in Geneva (after some initial clashes with the city council during which he took refuge in Basel) and he was the first to articulate the Swiss theological concept, and I stated as much. It was also the place from which early Calvinists including the Dutch and the Scottish learned about it. This is why the English-language translation of the Bible favored by the early Calvinists in England and the early Scottish Presbyterians is called “The Geneva Bible.”

I also mentioned that Huldrych Zwingli, who represented a more extreme form of Calvinism, was also Swiss, having been born in St. Gallen, and taking charge of the church in Zurich (and eventually dying on the battlefield in a failed and malicious attempt to blockade the Roman Catholic cantons to impose his views on them, essentially an attempt at waging a civil war in the Swiss confederation, an act which does little to make Zwingli more endearing to me personally, and I doubt my pious Lutheran friend @Ain't Zwinglian would be impressed by it either. And I felt it superfluous to mention several other 16th century Calvinists whose importance to the development of Reformed theology was on a par with John Knox, such as William Bucanus, Thomas Erastes and Heinrich Bullinger.

The reason why I mentioned Karl Barth was not to claim that Calvinism originated in Switzerland, because this fact is self-evident to anyone aware of the history of Calvinism and the geographical location of the major Swiss cities which became centers of the Reformation, but rather because the article you linked to cited the influential Systematic Theology of Louis Berkhof, which is important, but no recent work of systematic theology has attracted as much interest, or elicited such support and opposition, as Karl Barth’s Church Dogmatics, which I would argue are so influential as to be the most influential work of Reformed theology since John Calvin’s Institutes of the Christian Religion.

Nor did I exclusively limit myself to praising Swiss Reformed theology - I also heaped praise upon the German Reformed theologians, among others, but omitted to included among their number the very important work of Martin Bucer, leader of the Reformed Church in Strasbourg, which is now part of France, but at the time was part of the Holy Roman Empire, and Bucer, while of French descent, was a German theologian who, like Martin Luther, wrote and spoke in the German and Latin languages.
 
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