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What denominations believe in Unconditional Election?

BNR32FAN

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I have never seen a Calvinist Church in person, I have only seen Presbyterian, which I know teaches Unconditional Election.

Are there any others that teach this?
The Gnostics were the first to teach it. That’s why we see Iranaeus refuting Calvinist theology in 170AD in his writing Adversus Haereses which was written to refute Gnosticism.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedienceand the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the gloryof God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the causeof imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all goodthings with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all goodthings, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternaldarkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the causeof [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
 
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BNR32FAN

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Can I plug your question into the artificial intelligence? It is my new addiction. :)
You’re obsessed with AI brother. Lol I see you use it so often here in cf
 
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bbbbbbb

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The Gnostics were the first to teach it. That’s why we see Iranaeus refuting Calvinist theology in 170AD in his writing Adversus Haereses which was written to refute Gnosticism.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedienceand the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.



2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the gloryof God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.



3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the causeof imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.



4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all goodthings with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all goodthings, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternaldarkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the causeof [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39
Actually, one can make the case that God was the first one to initiate this notion when he chose Abram out of the multitudes of people and gave him the sure and certain promise that he and his descendants were God's particular people. Actually, God's choice of Noah vastly predates God's choice of Abram.
 
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BNR32FAN

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AlexB23

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You’re obsessed with AI brother. Lol I see you use it so often here in cf
Yeah, I am. This stuff is pretty useful, when it works. Right now, the AI is offline, cos the programmers made a mistake in the AI chat application, causing it to hang or get stuck when attempting to learn documents. It might be a few days before I can use it again. Hey, nobody's perfect.

1728675075672.png
 
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AlexB23

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Does it say “hmmmm”? :scratch:
The artificial intelligence has a spinning logo when it thinks. Cos my computer is slow, the machine may think for several minutes after being asked a question, but patience is a virtue.

1728675203981.png
 
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AlexB23

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It probably got the answers from here lol
Maybe, but the AI is not connected to the internet, but during pre-training before being released to the public, the AI model was trained on information on the internet. The machine gets its answers from both pre-trained info, as well as any documents installed on my computer that I have asked the AI to "learn".
 
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Quite true. Curiously, Zwingli's theology has found its way into a lot of American Protestant denominations, although he himself is barely a footnote in history.
I’m not aware of his theology, so I really can’t comment further.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I’m not aware of his theology, so I really can’t comment further.
His theology was a form of radical Protestantism, although not as radical as the Anabaptists. Among aspects of his theology was a large streak of iconclasm, which found its way into many Protestant denominations which, to this day, reject the use of statuary and, frequently, pictures. Crucifixes are definitely taboo, although Latin crosses have been generally accepted.

His views on the sacraments are quite prevalent today - there being only two sacraments, not seven as in Catholicism. In baptism there is no spiritual work accomplished for the believer, but the believer's faith is display publicly. In communion Christ is present because of His promise to be with two or three who are gathered in His name, but He is, in no way, within the bread and the cup, such that both are emblematic of His body and blood, but not physically either flesh or blood, nor metaphysically, as some traditional denominations believe.

You might find this helpful - Theology of Huldrych Zwingli - Wikipedia
 
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RileyG

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His theology was a form of radical Protestantism, although not as radical as the Anabaptists. Among aspects of his theology was a large streak of iconclasm, which found its way into many Protestant denominations which, to this day, reject the use of statuary and, frequently, pictures. Crucifixes are definitely taboo, although Latin crosses have been generally accepted.

His views on the sacraments are quite prevalent today - there being only two sacraments, not seven as in Catholicism. In baptism there is no spiritual work accomplished for the believer, but the believer's faith is display publicly. In communion Christ is present because of His promise to be with two or three who are gathered in His name, but He is, in no way, within the bread and the cup, such that both are emblematic of His body and blood, but not physically either flesh or blood, nor metaphysically, as some traditional denominations believe.

You might find this helpful - Theology of Huldrych Zwingli - Wikipedia
Thanks for posting and thank you for the link :)
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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His theology was a form of radical Protestantism, although not as radical as the Anabaptists. Among aspects of his theology was a large streak of iconclasm, which found its way into many Protestant denominations which, to this day, reject the use of statuary and, frequently, pictures. Crucifixes are definitely taboo, although Latin crosses have been generally accepted.

His views on the sacraments are quite prevalent today - there being only two sacraments, not seven as in Catholicism. In baptism there is no spiritual work accomplished for the believer, but the believer's faith is display publicly. In communion Christ is present because of His promise to be with two or three who are gathered in His name, but He is, in no way, within the bread and the cup, such that both are emblematic of His body and blood, but not physically either flesh or blood, nor metaphysically, as some traditional denominations believe.

You might find this helpful - Theology of Huldrych Zwingli - Wikipedia
I think it would be fair to say that Zwingli was a sort of proto-calvinist, fertilizing the ground for Calvinist thought to grow.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I think it would be fair to say that Zwingli was a sort of proto-calvinist, fertilizing the ground for Calvinist thought to grow.
Actually, I believe that although Zwingli may have affected Calvin, even as all the Reformers influenced one another in both positive and negative ways, He was more radical than Calvin. Certainly his views on the sacraments differed markedly from those of Calvin, even though many current Calvinistic denominations are much closer to Zwingli's position than Calvin's. Zwingli did not emphasize Augustinian soteriology as Calvin did. Unfortunately, unlike Luther and Calvin he did not leave much of a written legacy regarding his theology.
 
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Presbyterian churches are usually Calvinist, to the point where in the US the two terms are almost synonymous. @hedrick out of curioisity are there any parishes in the PCUSA which do not embrace at least some form of Calvinism?
PCUSA is the "Mainline" Presbyterian denomination which is quite liberal. They no longer require adherence to the Westminster Confession of Faith and many congregations have opted to abandon it altogether. They are also in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) which are the liberal Lutherans who affirm and ordain members of the LGBTQ community.

That such liberal Presbyterian congregations would reject the Calvinist "Doctrines of Grace" is not a surprise but they are far from being the first.

Ever hear of someone by the name of Charles G. Finney (1792-1875)? He was a Presbyterian preacher and his name is pretty much a "Cuss Word" among many Reformed groups. They use terms like "Finneyesque" or "Finneyism" when speaking of "Decision" based revival techniques that he is well-known for. Finney was not only hostile towards the doctrines of grace (TULIP), he pretty much denied the doctrine of original sin saying that human methodologies were capable of bringing about a conversion without the aid of the Holy Ghost!

Such thinking (Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism) is usually at the core of theological liberalism.
 
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RileyG

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PCUSA is the "Mainline" Presbyterian denomination which is quite liberal. They no longer require adherence to the Westminster Confession of Faith and many congregations have opted to abandon it altogether. They are also in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA) which are the liberal Lutherans who affirm and ordain members of the LGBTQ community.

That such liberal Presbyterian congregations would reject the Calvinist "Doctrines of Grace" is not a surprise but they are far from being the first.

Ever hear of someone by the name of Charles G. Finney (1792-1875)? He was a Presbyterian preacher and his name is pretty much a "Cuss Word" among many Reformed groups. They use terms like "Finneyesque" or "Finneyism" when speaking of "Decision" based revival techniques that he is well-known for. Finney was not only hostile towards the doctrines of grace (TULIP), he pretty much denied the doctrine of original sin saying that human methodologies were capable of bringing about a conversion without the aid of the Holy Ghost!

Such thinking (Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism) is usually at the core of theological liberalism.
I'm surprised the PCUSA isn't in full communion with the United Methodist Church. The ELCA is in full Communion with the UMC and PCUSA, but they aren't in full communion, together. Growing up, there was a UMC/PCUSA Church in my town that is now headed by an Evangelical Covenant Church Pastor.

Occasionally, you might see an Episcopal Church/ELCA sharing the same building and pastors.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I'm surprised the PCUSA isn't in full communion with the United Methodist Church. The ELCA is in full Communion with the UMC and PCUSA, but they aren't in full communion, together. Growing up, there was a UMC/PCUSA Church in my town that is now headed by an Evangelical Covenant Church Pastor.

Occasionally, you might see an Episcopal Church/ELCA sharing the same building and pastors.
The reasons for a lack of unity between the PCUSA and the UMC have nothing at all to do with Calvinism or Arminianism. From my perspective there were two reasons. The first is the shibboleth regarding the role of homosexuals in both denominations. The PCUSA managed to shed its conservative members via the development of splinter denominations such that it moved more quickly than the UMC, where a much larger proportion of members chose to remain and resist. Now that these members and their churches have migrated to the GMC (Global Methodist Church) that obstacle to unity is no longer in place. The other, more intransigent, issue is that of church polity. The UMC is, by its history, an English church with an episcopalian form of governance where as the PCUSA has its roots in Scotland and has a presbyterian form of government. The UMC (very loosely) attaches itself to apostolic succession via the Church of England and has a centralized heirarchy of bishops directing it. The PCUSA has virtually no interest in apostolic succession and has a form of government resting in its general assemblies of ruling elders and clergy. It is this sticking point that has also prevented the PCUSA from merging fully with the Episcopal Church in America and the various Lutheran denominations.
 
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The reasons for a lack of unity between the PCUSA and the UMC have nothing at all to do with Calvinism or Arminianism. From my perspective there were two reasons. The first is the shibboleth regarding the role of homosexuals in both denominations. The PCUSA managed to shed its conservative members via the development of splinter denominations such that it moved more quickly than the UMC, where a much larger proportion of members chose to remain and resist. Now that these members and their churches have migrated to the GMC (Global Methodist Church) that obstacle to unity is no longer in place. The other, more intransigent, issue is that of church polity. The UMC is, by its history, an English church with an episcopalian form of governance where as the PCUSA has its roots in Scotland and has a presbyterian form of government. The UMC (very loosely) attaches itself to apostolic succession via the Church of England and has a centralized heirarchy of bishops directing it. The PCUSA has virtually no interest in apostolic succession and has a form of government resting in its general assemblies of ruling elders and clergy. It is this sticking point that has also prevented the PCUSA from merging fully with the Episcopal Church in America and the various Lutheran denominations.
Thanks for the info!
 
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Armchair Apologist

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I'm surprised the PCUSA isn't in full communion with the United Methodist Church. The ELCA is in full Communion with the UMC and PCUSA, but they aren't in full communion, together. Growing up, there was a UMC/PCUSA Church in my town that is now headed by an Evangelical Covenant Church Pastor.

Occasionally, you might see an Episcopal Church/ELCA sharing the same building and pastors.
They are getting closer and closer! PCUSA, ELCA, and UMC are all unified on this one point: the adamant rejection of the inspiration, authority, and sufficiency of the scriptures! Many regard the Roman Catholic Church as the "Great harlot" and they may very well be included but I am convinced that the great harlot will be the whole of liberal Christianity and they will be united together in their hatred of biblical Christianity and God's TRUE CHURCH!

It's not the Democrats we need to worry about, it is the liberal, apostate church that will lead the charge in the persecution of God's elect!
 
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