What de-conversion feels like

[Lanakila]

I wouldn't wish this sudden type of jolting realisation on anyone else either. But there are many things in life that require loss and struggle to adapt to and if it happens, it's just something that has to be faced. And in my case (though I'm not sure how this goes generally), there was some sort of co-operation with the process, a willingness to entertain the possibility that I might be wrong. By putting my faith in god to reveal to me the truth, I knew I would open myself up to the possibility that if I was wrong, and god wasn't there, I might find out. That scared me enormously, but I couldn't help testing it all out. But I could have resisted at that point and continued in my faith.

Cat this is so similar to my deconversion process its uncanny.

 

[Rae]

However, for someone to be a believer in something and then later come to believe that this something/someone did not exist, means that it was a false belief in a nothing...

--You're assuming I'm an atheist, then? I believe numerous versions of God exist. I believe one can contact God through Christianity. I of course disbelieve in Christian doctrines and think a few of them are indeed universally untrue. But I was not a believer in God who then believed God didn't exist. I believed in God so much that when I realized the Bible was not a good portrait of him, I gave up the Bible and not God.

Grizzly asked this question before I could, but I really want an answer as well, so I'll ask it too. Do you think that a Hindu who converts to Christianity was really a Hindu before s/he converted? You didn't give a definitive answer and I'd like to know. Thanks.

(Note the proper use of grammar and punctuation by this elect individual.)

--As the daughter of an English minor, I myself rarely make grammar or spelling mistakes. That must mean God has inspired both of us correctly.

 

[MQTA]

But it appears that you are just splitting hairs with your label. It I was to say, no I am not a Christian, I am a Calvinist....you would say to me....good grief, are not all Calvinists Christians? So, I must say are not all eudaimonists existentialists? If the simpliest definition of existentialism is "existence has self-made meaning" then eudaimonism must fall under this larger heading, no?

Thanks for sharing....this is all very helpful.
Clem

Is that line of thinking that makes ALL Non-Christians to be labelled Atheists?

People pick their own labels for many reasons, sometimes others foist labels upon them. Who knows better, in most cases? The label picker or label foister?

 

[spirit1st]

Christainty,is in fact,a personal relationship with GOD ALMIGHTY!
It is not just living a clean type life and going to some place of worship!
Unless a person had this relationship,They will never understand it.
So to argue ,christain or non christain is silly!Because it is all about hearing GOd and GOD hearing us!
But I know?Every person on earth ,knows there is a GOD.NO MATTER WHAT THEY SAY!But many have never had the PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP!
And that is the difference!

 

[MQTA]

so there's a lot fewer ones than we realize, and far less than those who profess

wow, learn amazing things here.

 

[Grizzly]

Christainty,is in fact,a personal relationship with GOD ALMIGHTY!

I'm just curious. What's the Biblical support for Christianity being a personal relationship with GOD ALMIGHTY? I mean, I remember praying to God alot, reading the Bible, and feeling His Presence (or what I thought was his presence), but where exactly is it defined that Christianity is a personal relationship? I remember believing in God and having faith were of paramount importance, but I don't remember reading about personal relationships with God.

 

[ClementofRome]

--
Grizzly asked this question before I could, but I really want an answer as well, so I'll ask it too. Do you think that a Hindu who converts to Christianity was really a Hindu before s/he converted? You didn't give a definitive answer and I'd like to know. Thanks.

Please take my answer in the spirit in which it is meant.....that I did not enter this discussion to argue or to convert, but to learn myself what exactly is "de-conversion."

So, yes I believe that a pre-conversion Hindu was a "Hindu" before her/his conversion to Christianity. But, from a Christian perspective, my argument still stands. Once they realize that what they were believing in was a nothing, essentially they believed in a nothing. So, call it what you may (hinduism) it is a falsely directed belief in a nothing.

I know that non-Christians hate to have the scripture card played, but I must do it here. Paul said that the Corinthians were not doing anything necessarily wrong by eating meat sacrificed to idols. This was not wrong because an idol is a nothing and meat sacrificed to a nothing is meat sacrificed to nothing.

Now, back to my original questions as to whether one is a true Christian prior to "de-conversion," I would have to make the same application. One who concludes that the Christian God is a nothing must have been involved in belief in a nothing, thus it appears to be a falsely directed belief in a nothing. For, if someone was a believer in something and that something existed, then that would be true belief.

I am sure that the professional logician might take me to task, but at any rate I needed to address Rae's and Grizzly's concerns and attempt to at least be consistent....even if you disagree with me.

Blessings to you all and thank you for a great discussion.
Clem

 

[spirit1st]

Christainlty is different than any other!
We are NEW CREATURE,No longer of the earth .
BORN OF GOD!
THOSE of the world,Do not understand.They think they have answers to life!But look at the world.It destorys its self.And puts each other in bondage
They have no real LOVE or freedom!if left too them selfs.No person on earth would live!
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[Cat59]

Now, back to my original questions as to whether one is a true Christian prior to "de-conversion," I would have to make the same application. One who concludes that the Christian God is a nothing must have been involved in belief in a nothing, thus it appears to be a falsely directed belief in a nothing. For, if someone was a believer in something and that something existed, then that would be true belief.

I think my answer would be to that is that from my perspective, I was as much a "true believer" as you are now. I now maintain that I held false beliefs about the truth of Christianity at that time, but looking at that time, my perspective was very different, and I believed it was true. My beliefs now cannot negate that.
Just as a child who excitedly waited for Santa would not be able to say truthfully "I never really believed" once they found out the truth. Their beliefs were real and valid, they were true beliefs in that sense, although falsely held. The problem arises because we are discussing two different aspects of belief, the equivalence in reality but also its internal cognitive attributes. So a belief can be false yet held as true at the same time.

 

[Eudaimonist]

THOSE of the world,Do not understand.They think they have answers to life!But look at the world.It destorys its self.

You know, I could turn your statement around and say the same thing of Christianity. "Christians think they have answer to life! But look at the world. It destroys itself."

The days when Christians were just a handful of powerless people in the Roman Empire are no longer here. Christianity has been around a long time and has many followers. "The World" has included Christianity for a long time. Christians haven't created a paradise on Earth, so why should I believe that Christians have the answers to life?

 

[spirit1st]

christain have never controled this world!in the 1st place?They are not of this world!We are new creatures born of GOD and belong in NEW JERUSALEM ,which is in space!They don"t kill or destory!the world would like to blame christains for the mess here and will ,I guess late!We can see?The earth its self is falling a part.It will not be long,before earthquakes and other natural things .start destorying MANY.But nukes do will start goinbg off one of these days soon!It will not be a christain ,but a nut.Who do these things.but sin had caused the earth its self to start falling apart!.Your living in a time?When you willsee many bad things take place here on the earth.kinda a special generation of people to see the things which will come about.Many will come to the LORD JESUS CHRIST in the days ahead!
but the true christain never wants to hurt or destory anyone on earth!
Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

We live here for a short time.then the real us?Our spirits go to
our home in space.But many call them selfs christain,Thinking they really are!But never being BORN AGAIN!
Because they never allowed them selfs to be RULED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!
HE must be LORD AND MASTER!Or we never get too know HIm.But once we know HIm.NOTHING in this life is greater to us!
Because we were made for him.
We are never truly happy .until we are in HIm and HE in us!
There is a deep desire in each of us to know HIm.Some try ?But always hold back,from giving there whole heart too HIM!

 

[Eudaimonist]

christain have never controled this world!

Christians have been leaders of a world superpower. Care to guess which nation I mean?

Christians have been just as influential in the world as anyone else, and more influential than many religions and philosophies. The only way to not see this is to ignore all of history since Constantine.

They are not of this world!We are new creatures born of GOD and belong in NEW JERUSALEM ,which is in space!

Christians don't live in space (yet). They are acting in the world. This world. Earth.

They don"t kill or destory!

I don't either! Many non-Christians don't!

But note that many fervent born-again Holy Spirit-filled Christians supported the war on Iraq and other countries.

the world would like to blame christains for the mess here and will ,I guess late!

Christians are certainly not the only ones to blame for problems in the world.

 

[ClementofRome]

I think my answer would be to that is that from my perspective, I was as much a "true believer" as you are now. I now maintain that I held false beliefs about the truth of Christianity at that time, but looking at that time, my perspective was very different, and I believed it was true. My beliefs now cannot negate that.
Just as a child who excitedly waited for Santa would not be able to say truthfully "I never really believed" once they found out the truth. Their beliefs were real and valid, they were true beliefs in that sense, although falsely held. The problem arises because we are discussing two different aspects of belief, the equivalence in reality but also its internal cognitive attributes. So a belief can be false yet held as true at the same time.

Thanks Cat, your point is well taken. Worldview recognition is a very important facet of life. Many Christians will not come to realize that there are people who believe differently than they who are as adamant as they and thus ultimately will reach an impass. You are correct in my relation of reality with "true belief." I do understand the differenct between this and cognitive attributes Ultimately, someone is wrong. Either you are wrong or I am wron or we both are wrong. So, yes, you are correct in that beliefs can be wrong and still be beliefs, so there must be another word I am looking for here to make my point. A "_____" which can never be torn away." A "_____" that is so deeply rooted in the reality of the person that causes it to be a permanent fixture. Help me here.

Bless you Cat,
Clem

 

[Cat59]

Thanks Cat, your point is well taken. Worldview recognition is a very important facet of life. Many Christians will not come to realize that there are people who believe differently than they who are as adamant as they and thus ultimately will reach an impass. You are correct in my relation of reality with "true belief." I do understand the differenct between this and cognitive attributes Ultimately, someone is wrong. Either you are wrong or I am wron or we both are wrong. So, yes, you are correct in that beliefs can be wrong and still be beliefs, so there must be another word I am looking for here to make my point. A "_____" which can never be torn away." A "_____" that is so deeply rooted in the reality of the person that causes it to be a permanent fixture. Help me here.

Bless you Cat,
Clem

But this is based on your premise, which is a "true" believer never deconverts? That having the spirit inside you, you cannot turn away? (I put the question marks because I'm not sure if that is what you are saying)
If it is, I cannot help you, because I do not accept that premise that the Spirit was there, because I do not believe God exists. I do not believe there can be a permanent fixture.
Suffice it to say, I believed that I had the Holy Spirit dwelling within me, my whole life revolved around God. I had what I thought was a relationship with Jesus, I had faith in God.
The fact that I now believe I was wrong does not, in my eyes, change that.
I think we will have to agree to differ?

 

[spirit1st]

YOU see,It is much more than believing.It is KNOWING GOD!AsFATHER AND FRIEND!
knoqwing the bible is nice.But know HIM personally is ,what it is all about.FollowING HIm as HE LEADS AND TEACHES US!
Most people follow other people.be it a pastor or priest,or anyone !
This is evil to GOD!
But many believe those people and others over GOD!
HE gave HIS CHILDERN.HIS OWN SPIRIT!JUST TO TEACH US!
Many people believe the bible?But not in truth.They believe what others have taught them.
Not what the HOLY GHOST TAUGHT THEM!
They have a form of godiness.But no power!They couldn"t raise the dead ,or heal a persom or cast out a demon!
They just kinda play at knowing GOD?
Most do this.Thinking they know GOD.But never hearing from HIm or even seeing a miracle!Very sad.Of course they would argue with you and get mad!
IO was once like that.Until I died the 1st time,and was headingto hell.To await judgement.
Now I know,What waits the unsaved.I was never so scared in my life time!
But after returning too the flesh.It took a while.But one day I prayed.If there really is a GOD and JESUS christ and the bible is real.YOU come show me.And I will follow YOU!But If i am not talking to air?I will fail YOU!But if you pick me up each time?I will try again.HE showed me and has never failed me since.At that time.I had the real born of GOD ,experiance.I knew it for what it was.I said?GEE LORD,So this is BORN AGAIN!
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
BUT I HAVE FOUND.Some ask,But they are not willing,to allow HIM ,to be there LORD AND MASTER!Thinking they could lose something?But HE IS NO TAKER.BUT A GIVER!
satan put this lie in our minds ,to keep us from knowing ?TRUE LOVE AND POWER AND THE REASON FOR LIFE!
satan is the great deciever.
he tries every lie on us,hoping to decieve us with one!
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
THESE SIGNS FOLLOW THOSE WHO BELONG TO GOD!
DID THEY FOLLOW YOU?
THEY DO ME!And SHOULD EVERY CHILD OF GOD!

 

[ClementofRome]

But this is based on your premise, which is a "true" believer never deconverts? That having the spirit inside you, you cannot turn away? (I put the question marks because I'm not sure if that is what you are saying)
If it is, I cannot help you, because I do not accept that premise that the Spirit was there, because I do not believe God exists. I do not believe there can be a permanent fixture.
Suffice it to say, I believed that I had the Holy Spirit dwelling within me, my whole life revolved around God. I had what I thought was a relationship with Jesus, I had faith in God.
The fact that I now believe I was wrong does not, in my eyes, change that.
I think we will have to agree to differ?

You read me correctly, though again I am not here to call names or necessarily accuse one way or the other. It certainly boils down to an epistemological issue, both from the perspective that we will agree to disagree, but more so in attempting to anwer the question of "how do we know?" I could list all of the reasons for my claim of true knowledge and you could do the same, but I suspect that we would still come to an impass....but maybe not.

How can you be so sure that what you previously believed was not the truth?

 

[Cat59]

You read me correctly, though again I am not here to call names or necessarily accuse one way or the other.

I do not take it as name calling or an accusation, I can understand your perspective.

It certainly boils down to an epistemological issue, both from the perspective that we will agree to disagree, but more so in attempting to anwer the question of "how do we know?" I could list all of the reasons for my claim of true knowledge and you could do the same, but I suspect that we would still come to an impass....but maybe not.

How can you be so sure that what you previously believed was not the truth?

It's difficult to explain- I know that I cannot force myself to believe.
Numerous stumbling blocks appeared and ones that I had previously batted away came back to haunt me.
And I think I listed most of them before
Trying to deal with new information about the historical nature of the bible, the context of Christianity amongst the world religions; both in place and time; hell; suffering; the nature of God; afterlife issues; brain disorders such as autism and dementia and schizophrenia; faith versus reason..
So many things disturbed my world view and seeking help from those around me, from the bible, from prayer, from reading, did nothing to help resolve the conflict I had between the God I had believed in all those years and these new things I had discovered.
And I want what I previously believed to be the truth, I really do, it would make life simpler, less complicated, wonderful even.
But I cannot believe no matter how hard I try.
It no longer makes rational sense to me.
Yes I accept always the possibility I may be wrong
But I think it is very unlikely...

 

[radorth]

Christians have been leaders of a world superpower. Care to guess which nation I mean?

Yeah the one Churchill called "Christian civilization" which alone saved the world from fascism by the margin of a few liberty ships and supplies to the Russians who won the battle of Stalingrad by the slimmest of advantage.

Christians have been just as influential in the world as anyone else, and more influential than many religions and philosophies. The only way to not see this is to ignore all of history since Constantine.

But note that many fervent born-again Holy Spirit-filled Christians supported the war on Iraq and other countries.

I didn't but if democracy gets a foothold, Bush will be seen as another Reagan one day. And let us not forget how atheist liberals freaked out every time Reagan opened his mouth. Liberals and humanists are just naive and seldom liberate anybody

Christians are certainly not the only ones to blame for problems in the world.

Not hardly. Protestants have oppressed, killed or starved to death only a tiny fraction of those which atheists have.

In fact there is overwhelming evidence freedom of thought and action would have been destroyed altogether but for "Christian civilization" with all it's faults.

Rad

 

[ClementofRome]

I do not take it as name calling or an accusation, I can understand your perspective.

It's difficult to explain- I know that I cannot force myself to believe.
Numerous stumbling blocks appeared and ones that I had previously batted away came back to haunt me.
And I think I listed most of them before
Trying to deal with new information about the historical nature of the bible, the context of Christianity amongst the world religions; both in place and time; hell; suffering; the nature of God; afterlife issues; brain disorders such as autism and dementia and schizophrenia; faith versus reason..
So many things disturbed my world view and seeking help from those around me, from the bible, from prayer, from reading, did nothing to help resolve the conflict I had between the God I had believed in all those years and these new things I had discovered.
And I want what I previously believed to be the truth, I really do, it would make life simpler, less complicated, wonderful even.
But I cannot believe no matter how hard I try.
It no longer makes rational sense to me.
Yes I accept always the possibility I may be wrong
But I think it is very unlikely...

Thank you. I did not intend to dredge up the pain of your past. Please forgive me. I understand your struggle and I too have had my questions. Even the most devout Christian I have ever known claimed to only have somewhere between 96 and 99% assurrance and said that those who claim 100 % assurrance are falling to the sin of pride.

My best friend is an atheistic existentialist at his own admission and proclamation. He and I have many conversations (weekly since 1981). He is not "de-converted" as he has never been a believer. He raises many of the same issues that you raise and yet, you are so much further in your understanding as you have "worn those shoes," so to speak. Unfortunately, I cannot even get him to try it on to see if it fits. I suppose that I am confortable living with the notion that human reason is flawed at some point. One only has to take a look at history to see the unreasonable. There are unreasonable Christians and there are unreasonable atheists. It is tough at times being a premodern living in a postmodern world. However, as modernity (reason) seems to have failed in its attempt to be the predominant worldview and postmodernity (relativism) has taken its place, I am comforted in the knowledge that though Christian theism took a hit during modernity, it is still much more palatable than what modernity has birthed (postmodernism). Call me a dinasaur, or even out of touch, but I am a firm believer in absolute truth (and I am pretty sure that you are too Cat, even though we are currently "bound by different covenants").*

*I stole that line from the closing scene of the movie Contact.

 

[Cat59]

I'm not a big fan of post modernity
I once sat through a lecture on Post modern psychiatry and realised at the end I hadn't understood a single word the lecturer had said. I found a great post modern essay generator once, which produced pages of un-understandable post modern prose at the press of a button...
But at the moment, even though I am now so distant from where I used to be, I listen to my beloved hubbie, who informs me that if the God he believes in is real, he will not let me go. And I have told him I accept that, however much I do not believe it to be true.
Cat