What de-conversion feels like

[MQTA]

fascinating stuff, thanks for sharing cat and grizzly

 

[ClementofRome]

That paradigm shift for me happened in a moment. I was driving to work with all the doubts and difficulties flying round my mind, looked up in the sky and realised I just didn't believe there was anything there but sky any more.
It was as if the world shifted, as though everything that had been out of focus suddenly came back into focus sharply defined. Everything fell into to place, all the doubts I'd had, all the conflicts disappeared but all I was left with at that point was a huge hole in my life that someone had just ripped into me. But the dissonance that I had felt through trying to believe something that I always had alongside the new information I had aquired disappeared.
It was that new information that I'd aquired that led to that shift, if I'd left well enough alone and not searched out of a sense of deepening my faith, I guess, I'd still be where I was six months ago.

So the decision was made in a moments notice, but the struggle and questions and doubts and even "unbeliefs" were a process which led to the aha moment?

 

[Cat59]

It wasn't a decision, it was an awareness of the state of my knowledge and beliefs.
I don't know if it makes sense, I did not consciously decide that I was no longer going to believe, it was an awareness that the certainty and faith that I had before was gone, that for me, god no longer existed.
But the process leading up to it went on for a few months, accelerating in the last few weeks as my attempts to intergrate new bits of knowledge into my world view failed dismally, and I was left with huge conflicts that would not go away.

 

[Grizzly]

I did not mean to belittle your worldview crisis by simply terming it an epistemological shift. I dare say that it was very difficult. My task is to try to understand the heart-felt/head-oriented conviction toward God/Christ in the period leading up to the "de-conversion." Grizzly used the Santa analogy above and I am not quite sure that this is an appropriate analogy because we all believe what we are told until we reach a point of accountability where our thoughts become our own. If my father had told me at the age of 4 that the moon was made of green cheese, I surely would have believed him.....so this sort of unquestioning "faith" in the untrue is a part of childhood, but the analogy breaks down at some point in time. So, once one is well past the age of accountability and one professes with their mouth and believes in their heart that Jesus is Lord....what then, is the process of unbelief?

I hope you and Grizzly see that I am being serious with this line of questioning and no ill will is meant.

Clem

Hi Clement,

In my opinion, the "age of accountability" really doesn't play into it. It's possible at any age to believe something to be true, then on reflection believe that it is not. We are always changing and growing and learning new things.

As for the process of unbelief, it was alot of little things for me that just started to add up. I'll list a couple of them below.

1) The Santa Claus deception. I didn't realize it at the time, but looking back, I realized that it is possible to believe something to be true and then have it turn out to be wrong.

2) The decanonization of St. Christopher. My first name is Christopher, and I was devasted when the Catholic Church decided that St. Christopher was a myth and had never existed. Who the heck had I been praying to all these years? And, if the Church was wrong about that, what else were they wrong about?

3) Brother develops schizophrenia and numerous other unanswered prayers

4) College. I was still a firm Christian when I entered college. Then I started to really interact with people of different faiths. I could not believe how silly sounding some of the faiths seemed (especially hinduism). I had a late night discussion with a friend who was hindi, and I confessed that to me, his religion seemed silly. He responded by pointing out how silly Christianity seemed to him. Some of his insights were completely spot-on. I realized that some of the things I believed really didn't make alot of sense. For example, the whole salvation story no longer made sense. God turns himself into a man, we kill him, and God is now happy with us and won't torture us forever as long as we believe the story. If you think about it, it really doesn't make alot of sense.

5) Reading. I picked up a book by George Smith (Atheism: The Case Against God). That book was the death knell for my faith. I had come to realize that the Christian God of the Bible simply did not exist. It was a weird feeling, but it certianly felt correct. All the loose ends fell into place.

Well, that's about it in a nutshell. Of course, there's the lonely part of being an atheist. A huge community of family and friends and fellow believers are no longer there to support you. A loss of a sense of community and belongingness. Are there times I have questioned my unbelief? Sure. But it always comes back to evidence and reason. And those are things I can't ignore.

 

[Cat59]

I think my list, if you like would feature things like the nature of suffering and hell, the nature of God and justice, the historical nature of Jesus, questions around sexuality and morality and many other small things that all challenged me as I was exposed to them. I had managed to adapt to having a sister with schizophrenia and a son who was brain damaged and who developed psychosis too by adopting a position of trust in God, nothing else made sense but to believe that God would make all good for those who loved him in the end. This life was temporary and my son's horrific sufferings had a purpose that I would one day know.
But as these new things to me entered my sure state of mind and conflicts arose, I went out on a limb to try and reassure myself, testing out what I was hearing and reading. The book that shook me was Karen Armstrong's Short History of Myth and with that my perspective started to alter, as I saw Christianity in the context of human history.
After that, it was downhill all the way.

 

[MQTA]

Hi Clement,



5) Reading. I picked up a book by George Smith (Atheism: The Case Against God). That book was the death knell for my faith. I had come to realize that the Christian God of the Bible simply did not exist. It was a weird feeling, but it certianly felt correct. All the loose ends fell into place.

I think Paul Tobin's Central Thesis was the ultimate icing on the cake. Unfortunately, his works uncovered some things I hadn't even considered before. Wow, what an eye opener.

 

[ClementofRome]

Thank you all for sharing the "path" or progress of "de-conversion." Does one ultimately turn to atheistic existentialism as a practical worldview? I am assuming that none of you are nihilists, so what has replaced ultimate meaning?

I apologize for the many questions and I do appreciate your straightforwardness.

 

[Cat59]

I don't think I've got that far. My life now has no intrinsic meaning, it just is. I have found it hard, but I can live with it and make something of it. All I know now is that it is up to me to create a "meaning" and a "purpose" for my life, and being as how I have two children I love deeply (be it mere biological imperative or not) to ensure they have what they need to face the world I will leave them in is more than enough. Especially as one of them will always need help and never be independent.

 

[ClementofRome]

I don't think I've got that far. My life now has no intrinsic meaning, it just is. I have found it hard, but I can live with it and make something of it. All I know now is that it is up to me to create a "meaning" and a "purpose" for my life, and being as how I have two children I love deeply (be it mere biological imperative or not) to ensure they have what they need to face the world I will leave them in is more than enough. Especially as one of them will always need help and never be independent.

You are an existentialist and didn't even know it!

Clem

 

[Cat59]

You are an existentialist and didn't even know it!

Clem

Life is full of surprises

ETA:
But I don't think I've reached any definitive world view yet. I may never do so, but this will do me for now, whether others want to label it as something or not.

 

[psychedelicist]

But when I went on to full Atheism, I felt I was floating around in an empty void.

I know kind of what you felt, I just interpreted it differently. It was a feeling one could only describe as ecstasy. No, not the club drug, something completely different. It's an extremely difficult feeling to comprehend let alone describe. Joy and liberation, yes, but fear and some slight panic as well. The thought of being alone, utterly alone in this universe (for without some kind of deity we surely are, no matter how close of friends we have) was frightening to say the least. But there's something vaguely poetic and romantic about the idea of facing the infinity of existence, with no guide or help or crutch. The order which had once guided my life- regulation, tradition, vague semblances of good and evil to which I prayed- had left me. My life, everything I had made of it, and everything in it, shattered.

But there was only so long I could stand in awe of this new world. As I stood back and watched it, I felt fear at ever entering it again- how could I without these guides and orders to which I had become accustomed? Even as I tried, nothing seemed to matter or seem worthwhile. I grasped at any straw or thread of meaning I could find- but it always left me again. I began to fear that my life could never return to normal, and for a while even contemplated returning to christianity just so I could feel that safety of that order. But then I tried taking a different approach- not to grasp at any semblance of meaning I could find like a frightened animal, but rather to flow with the tides. Take what comes to me and let it leave when it does, rather than trying to hoarde it for some sense of purpose. To compare it to the tides example, to go surfing rather than to thrash around in the water trying to find land. Then you realize, there was never any 'self and other', or 'you and waves' as in the example, but rather, you are a small animate bit in this greater whole, rising and falling with the waves you are a part of.

I stumbled accross taoism a while later and found that they had realized the same thing, they were just better about putting it into words than I was

 

[ACougar]

Yes, I was truely Christian.

I don't see myself as having been deconverted either, I simply grew out of Christianity. I had profound and important spiritual experiances as a Christian, my Spiritual life has been one of continued growth, while I was a Christian and then when I moved beyond Christianity.

Here is a very humble and honest question that I would like for those who have "deconverted" to answer. I would like as honest an anwser from you and possible:

Prior to your deconversion, were you truly a Christian?

It appears to me that to reject Christianity as false would be to have never truly been a believer to begin with as that thing in which you supposedly believed does not exist. Therefore, it cannot be "deconversion" but simply the epistemological recognition that one thing is false and another thing is true.

Help me out here. Thanks.

 

[spirit1st]

A christain is a person who has been born the 2nd time.Did you have a 2nd birth.Did you become a new creature!How then ?did you find the old creature?Because the old creature was gone forever!
Now it is possible to start thinking like your old selve,But the old creature would be GONE!
I think?You were NEVER BORN AGAIN.But just thought you were?

 

[ClementofRome]

Yes, I was truely Christian.

I don't see myself as having been deconverted either, I simply grew out of Christianity. I had profound and important spiritual experiances as a Christian, my Spiritual life has been one of continued growth, while I was a Christian and then when I moved beyond Christianity.

Thank you A Cougar...would you mind explaining what you mean by "moving beyond Christianity"? It would be helpful for me in discerning your evolution from Christianity to paganism/UU (as your icon reflects).

Thank you.
Clem

 

[ACougar]

I accepted Christ for the first time at 12, and then had another profound experiance at a fellowship of Christian Athletes camp when I was 16. My father had retired from the Army and became a Southren Baptist Preacher when I was 13, I accepted everything completly. My only problem with Christian theology was that God would reject the sincear seeker who hadn't been as fortunate as I was to grow up in a Christian home. Over the years this aspect of my belief led me to embrace Universalism, the idea that God would not discriminate against anyone who sought to understand "The Great Mystery." I began to view my religion as a tool, that allowed me to understand the unknowable in some fashion and held onto it because I didn't believe that there was anything better out there.

That all changed when I was introduced to the idea of Goddess, all of a sudden a whole part of me that didn't seem to be fully engaged or satisfied was drawn into Spiritual ecstasy. I was terrorised to completely abandon a belief that I had been taught was my only ticket out of hellfire and damnation however my Love for the Divine feminine was greater than my fear. I began to understand the role of Jesus in my life differantly also, he was a wise teacher and an older brother to me that I still love greatly however I could no longer accept that any such thing as seperation from God could ever exist. The who sin/redemption game wasn't what Jesus was about, what he was about was Love and Compassion.

Despite it's many wonderous teachings the Bible was a corrupted instrument, assembled in the interests of those who wanted to build Empires. What could not be corrupted though was the Nature of God as revealed in Nature. I turned toward a Path that drew it's inspiration from the Nature instead of written texts and Scriptures. I started out in Wicca and studied it for many years before gradualy shifting into a path of journying and exploration through Shamanic States of Consiousness. I'm still seeking, learning and basking in that same great wonderous Mystery of Love and Compassion that is Goddess and God.

Thank you A Cougar...would you mind explaining what you mean by "moving beyond Christianity"? It would be helpful for me in discerning your evolution from Christianity to paganism/UU (as your icon reflects).

Thank you.
Clem

 

[Dragons87]

I have experienced so many things with God, that it would be truly impossible to de-convert me.

 

[ClementofRome]

Thank you for that A Cougar.....this explains much.

Blessings,
Clem

 

[LibertyChic]

I have experienced so many things with God, that it would be truly impossible to de-convert me.

I used to say the same thing

 

[Dragons87]

I used to say the same thing

What happened?

 

[LibertyChic]

What happened?

I deconverted in spite of myself