What Day Of The Week Is The Sabbath?

[ThreeAM]

Once again,

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph.2:8-9).

SDA's believe that the Seventh Day Sabbath is the seal of salvation. Does the Bible agree? Lets see,

"...Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit"

"And do not greive the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption" (Eph.1:13; 4:30).

I don't see any evidence that says, "The Seventh Day Sabbath saves." Zero evidence.

Again you seem to be an extremly uninformed former SDA. The Sabbath as a Seal of salvation says nothing about the SABBATH saving anybody. Only Christ's grace saves. Those who are save will be sanctified by Christ. Paul says that if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's seed. So we are heirs to the promises made to Israel. Here is a promise made to Israel who is Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

 

[tall73]

The Sabbath was a commandment given in the law of the old covenant.
It was in effect until Jesus Christ replaced the Old Covenant with The New Covenant.
"When there is a change of priesthood there is necessarily a change of law." Heb. 7: 12

The old covenant was replaced;
"because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take sins away." Heb. 10: 4

Indeed there is a new covenant, and a new priesthood. The new priesthood makes obsolete the continual sacrifice of animals etc. as Christ offered Himself once for all.

The new covenant though does not support your contention The new covenant says that the law was written on the heart, not that it was done away with.

In the New Law;
"The law of the Spirit, ...the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death. " Romans 8: 2

Note that in the same chapter, in the very next couple of verses Paul makes it clear what the Spirit of life does for us....


Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The law of sin and death that you referenced is the law of the flesh, at work in his members, which warred against the law of God. When Christ lives in us He both forgives us and helps us walk in the Spirit, fulfilling the laws demands from the heart.

When we enter into Christ's death through Baptism, we enter into THE SABBATH REST that still remains for the people of God. Heb. 4. 9-11

The Sabbath rest in Hebrews is in fact salvation. But it says nothing about the weekly Sabbath, it is simply an appeal to not miss out on salvation.

While Jesus was in his death, (during the Sabbath), he is accomplishing the largest GARBAGE HAUL in the history of the universe...
He carries away our sins.
(speaking in the language of "DIENEKES")

That He did! He also gives us power to not have to sin as we walk in the Spirit.

God raised Him on the First day of the week, the First day of The New Creation,
THIS DAY is our NEWNESS OF LIFE.

The Bible does not call it a new creation. That came later in Barnabas etc. in the second century. In fact the Bible says that the world was destroyed in the flood and is being reserved for fire next time in 2 Peter 3. So no end and new creation happened here. Now WE are called new creatures when we accept Him, but that is hardly the same.

We work all week( M-F)...We rest (or play) on Saturday...
We WORSHIP THE LIVING GOD in The First Day of the New Creation.
Sunday is the Day we receive His body and blood offered for the forgiveness of our sins, ...
where our Sabbath Rest begins and is continually renewed..

I understand this is your practice, but I would submit that it is not based on Scripture. You dn't see any indication of Sunday being the first day of the new creation.

 

[Sophia7]

All the early church fathers worshiped on Sunday. The early church fathers personally knew the apostles--especially John--and knew what Christianity taught about the Sabbath. Nobody...would have ever broken the Sabbath law! They knew, like we still know today, that the Lord's Day was the complete finished works of God. Salvation is creation and creation is the Sabbath that we keep for eternity. The Sabbath of Israel was just an earthly promise of the heavenly Sabbath that would come through Christ' finished works.

Do Sunday keepers go to heaven? Will Clement of Rome, a Sunday keeper (Phpp.4:3), go to heaven?
Answer the question without spinning, please.

The evidence from the ECF actually shows that in most places the early Christians began to observe both the Sabbath and Sunday. Eventually, Sunday took precedence, and Sabbath-keeping was discouraged. This progression started first in Rome, where there was the most anti-Jewish sentiment.

Here is a survey of a few of the historical references. (Thanks to my husband, Tall73, for looking up all of these.)

Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, chapter 9

Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat."57 For say the [holy] oracles, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread."58 But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them.59 And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days.

In the following text, we see both being kept, and an endorsement of Sabbath, in honor of the command. Like Ignatius, it stresses that it is a day for meditation of Scripture, not for external rest.

Apostolic Constitutions, 4th century, http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/...#P5614_2026032

XXXVI. Have before thine eyes the fear of God, and always remember the ten commandments of God,-to love the one and only Lord God with all thy strength; to give no heed to idols, or any other beings, as being lifeless gods, or irrational beings or daemons. Consider the manifold workmanship of God, which received its beginning through Christ. Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands.

Ibid.

Be not careless of yourselves, neither deprive your Saviour of His own members, neither divide His body nor disperse His members, neither prefer the occasions of this life to the word of God; but assemble yourselves together every day, morning and evening, singing psalms and praying in the Lord's house: in the morning saying the sixty-second Psalm, and in the evening the hundred and fortieth, but principally on the Sabbath-day. And on the day of our Lord's resurrection, which is the Lord's day, meet more diligently, sending praise to God that made the universe by Jesus, and sent Him to us, and condescended to let Him suffer, and raised Him from the dead. Otherwise what apology will he make to God who does not assemble on that day to hear the saving word concerning the resurrection, on which we pray thrice standing in memory of Him who arose in three days, in which is performed the reading of the prophets, the preaching of the Gospel, the oblation of the sacrifice, the gift of the holy food?

Sozomen, 5th century, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm

The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.

Socrates Scholasticus, History book 5, 5th century, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm

For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.

Socrates again, Book 6, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.htm

The Arians, as we have said, held their meetings without the city. As often therefore as the festal days occurred—I mean Saturday[1] and Lord’s day—in each week, on which assemblies are usually held in the churches, they congregated within the city gates about the public squares, and sang responsive verses adapted to the Arian heresy (Socrates' Ecclesiastical History, Book 6, Chapter 8, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume 3, p. 144)

John Chrysostom, Commentary on Galatians, 4th century, http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-1...htm#P187_15275

You will now understand why Paul calls circumcision a subversion of the Gospel. There are many among us now, who fast on the same day as the Jews, and keep the sabbaths in the same manner; and we endure it nobly or rather ignobly and basely.

Augustine points out that practices differed on Sabbath fasting, communion, etc.:

Chapter II, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.vii.1.LIV.html

2. There are other things, however, which are different in different places and countries: e.g., some fast on Saturday, others do not; some partake daily of the body and blood of Christ, others receive it on stated days: in some places no day passes without the sacrifice being offered; in others it is only on Saturday and the Lord’s day, or it may be only on the Lord’s day.

As many accounts note, Rome was one of the first places to fast on Sabbath. Some did so particularly to distinguish it from the Jewish Sabbath, again indicating change first in Rome, as is consistent with Scholasticus, Sozomen, etc.

The following shows that there was continued Sabbath keeping in the late 6th century, even in Rome:

Gregory, Post Nicene Fathers, Series II Book VIII, page 13, late 6th century, early 7th http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf213.htm

Gregory, servant of the servants of God, to his most beloved sons the Roman citizens.
It has come to my ears that certain men of perverse spirit have sown among you some things that are wrong and opposed to the holy faith, so as to forbid any work being done on the Sabbath day. What else can I call these but preachers of Antichrist, who, when he comes, will cause the Sabbath day as well as the Lord’s day to be kept free from all work. For, because he pretends to die and rise again, he wishes the Lord’s day to be had in reverence; and, because he compels the people to judaize that he may bring back the outward rite of the law, and subject the perfidy of the Jews to himself, he wishes the Sabbath to be observed.

Finally, for anyone who is interested, here is a link to a book by Samuele Bacchiocchi, which goes through the evidence from the ECF and details the history of the change from Sabbath to Sunday.
http://english.sdaglobal.org/dnl/bacchi/books/sab2sun.pdf

And one more book, by a 19th-century Seventh Day Baptist scholar:
http://remnantprophecy.sdaglobal.org/Librarypdf/Sabbath/CriticalHistorySabSun.pdf

 

[FEZZILLA]

Again you seem to be an extremly uninformed former SDA. The Sabbath as a Seal of salvation says nothing about the SABBATH saving anybody. Only Christ's grace saves. Those who are save will be sanctified by Christ. Paul says that if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's seed. So we are heirs to the promises made to Israel. Here is a promise made to Israel who is Abraham's seed.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Yes, I agree with you.
Its the SDA pseudotheology I disagree with regarding the legalism on the Day and it being the seal of eternal life. Though, before Christ, it was a must for salvation for Jewish people.

The laws are written in our hearts. We cannot say, 'I don't need love' with any sense of conviction. We can't commit crimes and have a sane conscience. We naturally need God because God created our human minds. So what we have is a combination of the unnatural sinful flesh vs. the natrual state of creation at war with our minds and hearts--yet, we know in our hearts that it is better to do good than evil. The law was what exposed sin, Christ freed us from the power of the law that we may be a redeemed people and find acceptance with our Creator when He returns for the harvest.
Sin goes against our natural make-up of living, though its impulse is in our blood from Adam. The Holy spirit is the one we willingly receive and teaches us true conviction and correction when we're sinning. The laws are written in our hearts and minds because the Creator has made this known to us through both creation and redemption.

 

[tall73]

The traditional Sabbath is Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. Many people still feel convicted to keep this day. However, Jesus himself is our rest and His authority is greater then Moses. Sunday is the "Lord's Day" which you'll see written in Rev.1:9-10. It is on this day Jesus rose and on this day our lives rose through His saving power. We worship on sunday because it represents our hope of our physical resurrection when Christ returns on that day of wrath and justice.

The only two references to the Lord's Day before the second century are ambiguous at best. There is no indication in the Scrpture that Sunday was referred to as the Lord's Day. Some suggest this was in fact Easter, or even Nisan 14. It is up to you to show that Sunday was the regular tradition before Ignatius, Justin Martyer etc. in the second century.

Secondly, you told Origen to come to General theology. And now you SDA's are saying to go to the SDA fourm. Which is it?

Actually GT is the right place to debate. But you are covering several topics at once that are not the point of this thread. The point of this thread is Sabbath. But your statements are being addressed here, so no problem.

Do sunday keepers receive the mark of the beast? Where in scripture is this found? Why is it wrong for Christians to worship on the Lord's Day? Why do we have to listen to a false prophetess when the Canon is closed? Is it wrong to ask why?

There is no problem worshiping on Sunday, it is rejecting Sabbath that is the problem, as it is a command of God. The problem with Sunday is when it is used to replace the Sabbath and be a new day of rest--a notion not found in Scripture, and not in other documents until much later. The council of Laodicea shows this trend, as do a couple of the church fathers. But most recognized both days and saw that the Sabbath was quie disctinct in meaning from the Sabbath.

And again, note that even EGW said that there is no one yet with the mark of the beast, though EGW is not the final authority anyway, but the Scriptures.

No one said you have to accept EGW. You can accept the Sabbath without her quite clearly. I did before I ever considered EGW, and there are hundreds of Sabbatarian groups that do not accept EGW. So this doesn't help your argument. You must show that Sunday was in place, and Sabbath not, from the beginning. EGW has nothing to do with that question.

 

[tall73]

The law was given by God for the sole purpose that the Christ may be born of a virgin woman. Jesus has come and we are saved by grace...not the law. The law is our understanding of exposing sin, that we may know what true Holiness is. SDA's do not keep the "Decalogue" to the letter! SDA's are more srtict than the Mosaic law!

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph.2:9).

We are all brothers and sisters in the Lord Jesus. Why challedge others that eat differnt foods (Rom.14)?

Sorry, the Adventist official position is clear, we are saved by grace.

 

[ThreeAM]

Not an arguement, a theory.

My arguement would be that none of this matters, I am saved by grace not works. yes saturday is the seventh day. But just like every other law it doesn't apply. covenants do not go beyond death. Work don't save you. If you want to start obeying the laws of the old covenant, there are a lot more out there. I know I was raised under the veil of armstrongism.

Well its an anemic theory then.

Yes we are all save by grace only.

As a matter of face nobody in th OT or the NT well be saved by works we are all saved by grace.

I challenge you to read the entire thread and see if any Sabbath keeper ever suggests that the act of Sabbath observance will save them. I don't think you will find a single quote that suggests they believe sabbath observance will save them. I do think however that sabbath believers will suggest that because we are saved we should at least try to obey God. That means we should not profane God's Name, have no other God's before him, not lie, not steal, not covet, not comitt adultry, repect our parents, and keep the Sabbath Holy etc. etc.. Non of this will save us but it is how we show our respect and love for the God that saved us with His grace. Apparently that's what the saints think also because they keep the commandments of God AND have the faith of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[FEZZILLA]

The evidence from the ECF actually shows that in most places the early Christians began to observe both the Sabbath and Sunday. Eventually, Sunday took precedence, and Sabbath-keeping was discouraged. This progression started first in Rome, where there was the most anti-Jewish sentiment.

Here is a survey of a few of the historical references. (Thanks to my husband, Tall73, for looking up all of these.)

Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians, chapter 9


In the following text, we see both being kept, and an endorsement of Sabbath, in honor of the command. Like Ignatius, it stresses that it is a day for meditation of Scripture, not for external rest.

Apostolic Constitutions, 4th century, http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-07/...#P5614_2026032


Ibid.


Sozomen, 5th century, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26027.htm


Socrates Scholasticus, History book 5, 5th century, http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/26015.htm


Socrates again, Book 6, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf202.htm


John Chrysostom, Commentary on Galatians, 4th century, http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF1-1...htm#P187_15275


Augustine points out that practices differed on Sabbath fasting, communion, etc.:

Chapter II, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.vii.1.LIV.html


As many accounts note, Rome was one of the first places to fast on Sabbath. Some did so particularly to distinguish it from the Jewish Sabbath, again indicating change first in Rome, as is consistent with Scholasticus, Sozomen, etc.

The following shows that there was continued Sabbath keeping in the late 6th century, even in Rome:

Gregory, Post Nicene Fathers, Series II Book VIII, page 13, late 6th century, early 7th http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf213.htm


Finally, for anyone who is interested, here is a link to a book by Samuele Bacchiocchi, which goes through the evidence from the ECF and details the history of the change from Sabbath to Sunday.
http://english.sdaglobal.org/dnl/bacchi/books/sab2sun.pdf

And one more book, by a 19th-century Seventh Day Baptist scholar:
http://remnantprophecy.sdaglobal.org/Librarypdf/Sabbath/CriticalHistorySabSun.pdf

Samuele Brochiocci is an evil snake! He says, Sunday is the mark of the beast" and deliberately lies about Chruch history and...teaches the infalliblility of scripture which he distorts to his own distruction.
Ignatius of ANTIOCH is not from Rome and there is no evidence for his mythra claim whatsoever.
furthermore, your translation does not read like mine as mine is a true translation which does not contradict like yours does.

Listen to me and listen well. I warn you as a brother in Christ God, if you listen to this devilish fool you just might blaspheme the Holy spirit--as I saw my friend do through his instruction mannuals that subtlely are designed to take over your mind and destroy your soul.

My translation is the Ancient Christian Writters series, which is very percise in wording, disagrees with the fabrication you quoted. Remember, Ignatious was an Disciple of John

 

[tall73]

The Sabbath to a Christian can be any day one makes sacred to God. Legalistically speaking, the Sabbath law was given to Israel as a special "covenant". I can't believe none of you SDA's cannot comprehend this.

a. Even the strangers in their gates kept the Sabbath--gentiles.

b. The early church continued to keep it. When Paul was looking for Christians he went to the synagogue. James spoke of Moses being preached every week at the synagogue. Paul met with gentiles at the synagogue--not just for evangelism, but for week after week, sometimes for years, never mentioning anything about another day. And when he didn't find a synagogue he went to a place of prayer on the Sabbath.

c. The early church, as Sophia's recent post showed, continued to keep the Sabbath for centuries, at times side by side with Sabbath. Alexandria and Rome were the first to begin to move away from it on the basis of some ancient tradition. This was likely due to anti-Sabbatarian influence after the destruction of Jerusalem in 135 AD, as well as monetary pressure etc. It was not popular to keep the Jewish Sabbath in Rome after a time. It was during this very time that Barnabas, Justin Martyr etc. began to downplay the Sabbath. But the majority still kept it for hundreds of years, jew and gentile.

Do you still stone people like the law says when one breaks the Sabbath laws? No! Therefore you are lawbreakers!

We submit to the government as Paul said in Romans 13. WE are not in a theocracy. We see no indication that the Christians stoned people either, even for sins that everyone recognizes (adultery etc.). It was the role of the authorities to do so. As Paul says they "do not bear the sword in vain."

Oh,..I see...Jesus just died for sheep, right? He was an animal rights activist, right? If sheep scarifice is all that Jesus accomplished, what did he do for us? And why do you always dodge Bible verses that answer you skeptism?

Do sunday Christians find life--while worshiping on sunday--or not?!

Animal rights? Again you refuse to listen to either us or the official position that says that we accept Jesus' sacrifice for sin. Why?

 

[tall73]

Yeah, I know, those are nothing but a smoke-screen for those that don't know any better. E.G.White is the final say of the SDA church. To deny her is to deny the movement altogether. Besides, the vast majority of every SDA-Dubiologist I've seen preaches the death to Sunday false gospel.

EGW didn't even accept the Sabbath the first time it was presented to her by Bates. What does EGW have to do with it?

It was not her doctrine, she accepted it from another.

And she was probably the BIGGEST advocate of righteousness by faith in the latter part of her life. So I don't see your argument there either.

Why do SDA's enjoy creating so much division in the church? And why do they slander Sunday Pastors so hard? (1Cor.1:10-17 ...huh, whats the point of quoting scripture when they don't bother to read it?).

Division is all in the eyes of the one who feels slighted. Even if there is division did not Jesus come to bring not peace but a sword?

If you can't answer the arguments then perhaps it is not an issue of division, but an issue of a legitimate issue.

Please answer the factual arguments.

 

[Sophia7]

Samuele Brochiocci is an evil snake! He says, Sunday is the mark of the beast" and deliberately lies about Chruch history and...teaches the infalliblility of scripture which he distorts to his own distruction.
Ignatius of ANTIOCH is not from Rome and there is no evidence for his mythra claim whatsoever.
furthermore, your translation does not read like mine as mine is a true translation which does not contradict like yours does.

Listen to me and listen well. I warn you as a brother in Christ God, if you listen to this devilish fool you just might blaspheme the Holy spirit--as I saw my friend do through his instruction mannuals that subtlely are designed to take over your mind and destroy your soul.

My translation is the Ancient Christian Writters series, which is very percise in wording, disagrees with the fabrication you quoted. Remember, Ignatious was an Disciple of John

I never said that Ignatius was from Rome. Believe what you like; you are the one misrepresenting facts here.

 

[tall73]

Wrong! Now you just broke the 9th Commandment--a moral law--by wrongfully assuming that I was never a SDA! I was one for most of my life until I witnessed them falsifying and fabricating evidence for their faith in...yes, New Age enlightenment! They are deliberately lying about what sunday keeping Christians believe and why we worship on Sunday.

He was speaking of orignen, not you. Or are you origen and simply agreeing with your own post?

And he did not break any commandment . He said that the person was not an Adventist, which he freely admitted. He never said he was NEVER an Adventist. Unless he edited it later.

Please give evidence that we believe in "New Age Enlightenment." You are required to back up statements on this forum.

I dont' recall lying about anyone. I recall saying that Sunday was advocated by church fathers by the second century at least. They gave a variety of reasons for keeping it, some of which did not agree with the Scriptures, including the arguement by Justin Martyr that it was in honor of the first day of creation in the Genesis account. But of course the Genesis account does not highlight the first but the seventh.

now if you mean statements by pastors etc. I don't know if those are accurate or not ,so I don't quote them. They are a secondary source anyway. But the primary sources still show undeniable Sabbath observance for some time.

In just one case, I seen a Pastor on 3ABN say, "The mark of the beast is the mark of the beast...its sunday!"

3abn is not a church entity. It is an independent ministry. Now personally I feel the mark of the beast is disloyalty to God in any aspect, including breaking the Sabbath command. But we won't know for sure until it happens. But if that is the speakers conviction, and it is clearly the conviction of many Adventists...then so what? They are not entitled to their view? Feel free to disagree with them then. when the mark comes about we will find out. And until then Adventists do not hold that anyone has the mark. So there is no condemnation at all of current people.

Anyone can investigate Adventism and see the subtle condemning doctrine that damn the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I am a witness! Do you even know what your SDA-leaders at the top say about salvation concerning Christians that worship on Sunday?

Please show how we damn the resurrection of Christ? No one denies the resurrection. What you have failed to show is that Sunday observance was a Scriptural command, or even an original command of the original apostles or the early church before at the very earliest 70 AD.

 

[tall73]

All the early church fathers worshiped on Sunday. The early church fathers personally knew the apostles--especially John--and knew what Christianity taught about the Sabbath. Nobody...would have ever broken the Sabbath law!

a. even if you demonstrate that ECF kept Sunday it does not show that the apostles did, since their is little eveidnece before 100 AD that show Sunday observance.

b. If they did, so what? Many also kept the Sabbath. Again, the problem is not with Sunday itself, but with the notion of substituting Sunday as a new Sabbath, which is not supported either in the Scriptures or many of the ECF.

They knew, like we still know today, that the Lord's Day was the complete finished works of God. Salvation is creation and creation is the Sabbath that we keep for eternity. The Sabbath of Israel was just an earthly promise of the heavenly Sabbath that would come through Christ' finished works.

Actually not all of them apparently knew that.

Do Sunday keepers go to heaven? Will Clement of Rome, a Sunday keeper (Phpp.4:3), go to heaven?
Answer the question without spinning, please.

First of all do you have evidence that Clement of Rome kept Sunday?

Second, I have no reason to believe Clement won't be in heaven.
Again, the observance of Sunday as a memorial of the resurrection is not a problem. The removal of the Sabbath, or the substitution of one for the other is.

 

[ThreeAM]

Yes, I agree with you.
Its the SDA pseudotheology I disagree with regarding the legalism on the Day and it being the seal of eternal life. Though, before Christ, it was a must for salvation for Jewish people.

The laws are written in our hearts. We cannot say, 'I don't need love' with any sense of conviction. We can't commit crimes and have a sane conscience. We naturally need God because God created our human minds. So what we have is a combination of the unnatural sinful flesh vs. the natrual state of creation at war with our minds and hearts--yet, we know in our hearts that it is better to do good than evil. The law was what exposed sin, Christ freed us from the power of the law that we may be a redeemed people and find acceptance with our Creator when He returns for the harvest.
Sin goes against our natural make-up of living, though its impulse is in our blood from Adam. The Holy spirit is the one we willingly receive and teaches us true conviction and correction when we're sinning. The laws are written in our hearts and minds because the Creator has made this known to us through both creation and redemption.

People in the OT were saved by faith just like you and me.

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.​

32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[tall73]

SDA's commit false testimony against the early church by teaching that Constantine changed the Sabbath to Sunday. This is a lie! As I said before, the early church fathers were keeping the day loooong before Constantine was born! Could it be that the SDA has made an error or possilby even deliberately lied? The witches agree with the SDA view on church history!

Ellen White was sincere, as I believe, but she was young when she was brainwashed by Miller into his Salvation-Lite doctrine. Maybe SDA's should start drinking Ellen Lite?

The witches...guilt by association? Can one help who agrees with them?

But constantine did not make the change on his own, that is quite true. Nor do all Adventits teach that

 

[tall73]

People in the OT were saved by faith just like you and me.

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.​

32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

You have that right

Paul agrees in Romans 4 and Romans 10.

 

[tall73]

Listen, and don't assume; I believe that the Holy Bible is the only authority that is Infallable. Anyone who disagrees with scripture doesn't have a problem with me or other Christians, they have a problem with God.
I mine the scriptures like we should everyday and do not compromise scripture with worldly philosophers. I only mention the church fathers because they were witness to the acts of the Apostles.

a. I have no problem with early church history evidence. In fact the evidence is clear that the church in pella that fled from Jerusalem was keeping the Sabbath. We also have evidence in the book of John that even in the day it was written Christians were STILL being put out of the synagogue..ie they were meeting on Sabbath. The majority of Christians kept the day until at least the 5th century.

b. The Scripture evidence is clear that the early church attended synagogue on Sabbath. It is far from clear that they had a regular Sunday observance.

 

[tall73]

A fromer friend of mine, who I knew for many years, tried to prove Adventism so he could justify the "Mark of the Beast" doctrine. He talked to the top Authorities--as I have also studied from them--and they told him what they truly are. In his quest to prove that the doctrines of Adventism are 100% Biblical he--well, he eventually became a spiritual Atheist (a NEW AGER). He had to deny all scripture to maintain his hatred towards Sunday, which the SDA church always taught us..though now tries to deny it.

Anecdotal evidence. That hardly proves any new age ties or anything else. What you have not done is present persuasive Scripture that upholds your point.

I also noticed that all the SDA's churches in my region never convert non-believers. Why is this?

You might want to ask them. The great commission is to reach all people for Christ. If they are not doing it either they are struggling or misguided.

Don't get me wrong. I know that many church going SDA's are true believers in Christ. But those at the top or even the pastors of some of those churches, are the ones teaches against Christianity by teaching that Sunday keeping Christians are worshiping the sun-god of Babylon--when indeed they know nothing about what the Babylonians believed. The sun-god of the ancient world as not affected Christianity. It has, however, been the framework for evolution theory.

The contention is that pagan observance of Sunday influenced the transition of the day of worship. That is hardly a revolutionary thought.

 

[tall73]

what if the sixth day was not cuncluded until Jesus finished his work on the cross (hence "it is finished") and the ot sabbath was always a forward looking odservation. what if God's resting on the seventh day was not something that was recorded after it happened. what if it was prophecy adout the messiah. (who then sat down and rested permenately in his seventh day)

Then the command in Ex. makes no sense when it refers back to the creation account. The Sabbath does have backward and forward looking elements. No problem there.

 

[tall73]

Not an arguement, a theory.

My arguement would be that none of this matters, I am saved by grace not works. yes saturday is the seventh day. But just like every other law it doesn't apply. covenants do not go beyond death. Work don't save you. If you want to start obeying the laws of the old covenant, there are a lot more out there. I know I was raised under the veil of armstrongism.

The new covenant is still in effect, and in it the law is written not in stone but on the heart.