What Day Of The Week Is The Sabbath?

[_Origen]

Who says it's work? Maybe she is relaxing.

Do you really think debating such an argument as I have on the last page is relaxing (yes, I'm Fezz, too)?

Face it. I know that you cannot debate on the Sabbath.

 

[Sophia7]

True, but the scriptures themselves spell out that you're not supposed to go anywhere on the sabbath. I don't know if adventists see that as "commandments of men" or God's commandments.

When the Bible said in Exodus 16:29 that no one was to go out on the Sabbath, that referred to going out to collect manna. They were not to go out and look for it on the Sabbath because God had sent them extra manna the day before. Read the whole chapter to get the context.

Of course not. He was, as He said Himself, sent to Israel. He obviously didn't encourage anyone to break the law, but rather He showed how righteous you'd have to be to make it to heaven, and that God desires mercy, not sacrifice.

That's just the thing, though. He didn't change the law. I don't think He changed any part of it at all. If one is to keep the law, one better keep the law. If one wants to be under it, one better do as it says. Jesus certainly didn't lower the standard - He raised it! People were like "hey, we keep the law" and He was like "oh yeah? THIS is righteousness - love your enemy!" and so forth.

Well, I guess we agree on one thing then. Jesus didn't change the law. However, we disagree on what it means to be under law or under grace.

Well, I just don't see why I should set apart any one day to worship or rest or show my gratitude for God. What better than to do it 24/7?

Yes, we should worship God every day, but He Himself specifically set apart the seventh day as holy. The issue here is whether His commandment is still applicable to Christians. You believe that it is not; I believe that it is.

As far as I know, the bible doesn't actually say she repented.

Jesus doesn't forgive the sins of those who are unrepentant. He told her to go and sin no more. I don't believe that there is any way she would have refused to listen to Him.

Like He has forgiven everyone, everywhere, for everything.

No, He hasn't forgiven everyone for everything--only those who accept His gift of salvation.

Was it? Does the law allow forgiveness?

Yes, the law (including the law of Moses) allowed forgiveness. Here is what Hebrews says about the law: "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (9:22). That was what the whole sacrificial system was about. The sacrificial laws were given by God to demonstrate His forgiveness, even in OT times. People were forgiven for their sins then, too, if they had faith in God. And Jesus could forgive because He was the sacrifice for our sins. He followed the law in every respect.

Ah. But what about when He touched dead people and lepers?

He touched them because He could heal them and make them clean. No one else could do that. He was not breaking the law.

 

[FallingWaters]

Do you really think debating such an argument as I have on the last page is relaxing (yes, I'm Fezz, too)?
Face it. I know that you cannot debate on the Sabbath.

a- I'm sorry. I thought it was a joke question. I did not realize you were serious. I thought you were teasing her.

b- Just because you don't find it relaxing, doesn't mean it can't be relaxing to someone else.

c- You say Sophia is "working as a witness". In that case, one could make the case that Sophia is obeying the scriptures: maybe she is doing God's pleasure on His holy day, maybe she is honoring Him not doing her own ways, nor finding her own pleasure, nor speaking her own words. Perhaps she is delighting herself in the LORD?

Isaiah 58:13-14
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the LORD honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

 

[ThreeAM]

Well if you preach like you post you don't have anything to worry about!
tulc(sipping cold, old coffee...and loving it!)

My same thoughts

 

[tulc]

You are online and breaking the Sabbath code.

...the Bible says you can't be online on the sabbath? Where's it say that?
tulc(thinks sockpuppets are bad)

 

[FallingWaters]

...the Bible says you can't be online on the sabbath? Where's it say that?

LOL

 

[tall73]

True, but the scriptures themselves spell out that you're not supposed to go anywhere on the sabbath. I don't know if adventists see that as "commandments of men" or God's commandments.

The only text that says anything like this is in Exodus, and it is referring to the collection of Manna in the morning. They are told not to bother because it won't be there, and indeed it was not.

But here are texts that hint at assembly on the Sabbath in the OT, and certainly they assembled in the NT. ( Besides which...if Jesus broke the law in any point He couldn't be our Savior. )

The evidence in the Old Testament mainly points to a day of rest, at first in their homes in the wilderness. There are hints though of assembly on the Sabbath, and by New Testament times it is quite clear that weekly worship and assebly were being practiced, which Jesus also joined in on.

Here are the texts in the Old Testament that hint at assebly:

1. Leviticus suggests that there was some element of assembly on the Sabbath. The context makes it unclear whether it was just in their homes as families, or some more corporate form.

Lev 23:3 "Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work. It is a Sabbath to the LORD in all your dwelling places.


2. An indication of assembling on the Sabbath and new moon:


2Ki 4:22 Then she called to her husband and said, "Send me one of the servants and one of the donkeys, that I may quickly go to the man of God and come back again."
2Ki 4:23 And he said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor Sabbath." She said, "All is well."

3. The term convocation is again used of the new moon and Sabbath, though they were in vain because the people were turning away from God in their sin, but still coming to worship as ones who sought Him:

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations-- I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.

4. Depending on your view of who wrote Isaiah this would qualify, though it is describing a later period prophetically. In any case it is referencing the Sabbath and new moon assemblies.


Isa 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

.

That's just the thing, though. He didn't change the law. I don't think He changed any part of it at all. If one is to keep the law, one better keep the law. If one wants to be under it, one better do as it says. Jesus certainly didn't lower the standard - He raised it! People were like "hey, we keep the law" and He was like "oh yeah? THIS is righteousness - love your enemy!" and so forth.

agreed, but then why would He have broken it in some point by breaking the Sabbath?

And the other difference being that we are not UNDER the law, as we are not keeping it for salvation. But for Christ to be our sacrifice, He certainly had to be.

As for the adulteress they were not operating fully under the laws of the theocracy as they were subject to Rome.

Ah. But what about when He touched dead people and lepers?

when He touched them they were alive and clean. Sounds fine to me.

 

[tall73]

And still further, Bacchiocchi pretends to know his history. All you SDA's need to know that ALL the early Christians suffered severe persecution by Jews and Romans, as a means of exterminating them (like the Marxist do today). [*Note: SDA Universities, as I know, teach that Hitler was a Christian. Man! This is a lie I've had to work hard to beat out of SDA's heads! Hitler was a "Nazi." Naziism was highly derived from the Norse pagan religion. Naziism was the Occult forced into law]

So far your arguments are

"Ellen White is bad"
"Bacchiocchi is bad"

But you haven't answered any of the evidence provided. You skirt right past the ORIGINAL source material provided. Why?

Back to Ignatius,

"After the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and cheif of all the days (of the week). Looking forward to this, the Prophet declared. 'To the end, for the eighth day; on which our life both sprang up again, and the victory over death was obtained in Christ.' "
(Ante-Nicene fathers)

If Sunday observance is so bad, why does Ignatius uphold it has Holy? And why don't the SDA church open their church doors just one day a year to celebrate Christ' resurrection on Easter Sunday?

You apparently didn't read my comments on Ignatius either. There is nothing wrong with worshipping on Sunday. There is nothing wrong with worshipping every day. There is a problem with getting rid of God's commandment or changing it. It is the substitution of Sunday for Sabbath with has no biblical warrant that is problematic. Ignatius kept both. No problem with him at all. Nor did you address the translatio issues I presented.

Keeping the Sabbath was law in Judah. If any Christian etc. broke that law they were stoned.
To say that American Christians or Christians from India or Africa have to keep the seventh day Sabbath to be saved is to practice the heresy of denationalization--which has always been unChristian!!

christians kept the Sabbath in parts of Indea and Africa for years. The coptics do to this day.

SDA's deny the Supernatural soul. This is a naturalistic stance from paganism!

paganism is rife with references to immortal souls. But again, to criticize our view of the soul you have to actually demonstrate that it is wrong. And you

a. have not done that
b. are in the wrong thread for that.


"Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together" (John 4:36).

We believe in eternal life thanks.

"...and the spirit returns to God who gave it" (Ecc.12:7).

You truncated the verse. But since we are discussing it, please tell me where the soul went at death at that time? And if it went to God, doe you not believe it went to hades or sheol? and therefore you have opened up a whole series of problems.

The text you quoted is actually a reversal of the Genesis account, with the dust going back to the earth and the breath going back to God.

The soul is not just simple oxygen and electricity. It all works in harmony together, but, nonetheless, God's breath is still Supernatural.

We hold that the soul is the combination of dust and breath, or the living unit, not oxygen and electricity.

About hell, Jesus says, "Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenced" (Mk.9:48).

I would love to respond but we are not allowed to discuss this topic in GT.

All I ask from you SDA's is to confess that E.White is not scripture and the Canon is closed (Rev.22:18-19).

yes well you could have saved a lot of time then, because EGW is not Scripture, and she says so herself.

He redeemed creation and man on Sunday!! What do you SDA's not understand about this?

a. He died on Friday, on the Passover as planned.

b. He rose on Sunday on the WAVE SHEAF day of firstfruits as planned. If you want to worship around a day, perhaps you might worship on the days God appointed.

 

[tall73]

Jesus did salvational work all the time on the Sabbath, and the priests did even more work on the Sabbath with an extra sacrifice. Jesus said they were guiltless in doing so.

 

[holo]

a. they were in the NT, so we can't assume they were just the old law!

b. That in itself is an interesting discussion on law.

Indeed. There are people who will claim that the ten commandments, plus any demand set forth in the NT, is law we must follow. Which sounds about right, but it only means that the law which was already impossible, has only been tightened and reinforced. In a way, they commandments would only be differant than they used to, but probably just as ineffective as the old ones.

c. i would not put them anywhere near the moral law, either as you see it without the Sabbath, or I see it with. But I think the head covering issue still contained important principles which endure, yes.

I generally see them as ordinations, suggestions, principles, and examples of perfection.

b. Paul made it painfully clear that the law was not the problem. The law was spiritual, he was unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. Christ did not come to remove the law, which sin took advantage of. To do so Christ would be changing the principles of His nature. Instead Christ came to take away the SIN which caused the problem in the first place. That is why he said that God did what the law could not do, weakened by the sinful nature...He met God's righteous requirements, so that we keep the laws demands fully, by the Spirit.

We died and rose with Christ, being now dead to the law. I see it like this: if we are under the law, we will be judged by it. There's no escaping that, and that's the whole point. I'm under Norwegian law, and will be judged according to it if I break it. But God's law is impossible to keep. It will condemn me, over and over. And not only that, it fuels sin (though the commandment is good and just). My only escape is to be separated from the law somehow, in order to:
- not be condemned, and
- become free from sin.

To become free from sin, I must first be free from the law.

So let's look at the equation.

law + sin = death.

Now of those two, which did Jesus come to do away with? The law or sin? To me it is clearly sin. Where sin is gone the law no longer condemns.

Ah, but that suggests we are still under law, but without sin. I think it's the other way around.

That is why Paul says there IS NO CONDEMNATION!

I believe that if I'm under the law, I am under condemnation. I don't think it's possible to be under the law without being condemned.

Or as Paul puts it in another place, once the Spirit is in your there is no law against the things you will do...(the fruits) as they are all good.

Yes! The law doesn't apply to those who are righteous. And that's the great secret which few of us know (and those who know it, know only a tad of a speckle of it - His righetousness is so deep) - that we ARE righteous. I AM righteous. I AM holy and pure and clean. The law has no hold on me, not just because I'm not under it (IMO), but because God has declared me righteous. I am righteous. The law is for the wicked and ungodly, not for me.

So in this regard the law again is seen to be.

a. a revelation of God's will.

To some extent, yes. But I'd rather say that Jesus is the real and ultimate revelation of God's will. God's will is most clearly demonstrated at the cross.

b. limited in power

I'd say not only limited, but powerLESS! In fact, I even think it works contrary to what it demands.

c. revelatory ,but not saving.

Not sure what you mean, please elaborate.

d. NOT THE PROBLEM. Sin is the problem.

True, but it is always the power of sin, just like from the very first commandment to not eat of the tree in Eden. Forbidden stuff tempts us.

It is like this. We owe a debt. The law demands we pay it. Now we can either cancel all debts, or we can just pay the debt. i think God paid the debt.

I think He did both, in a way. Deep stuff, isn't it?

 

[tall73]

Can a member have two usernames isn't this behavior deceptive He has been pretending to be a different person for several days now.

I think it just falls under the category of tacky to come on here and give a strong endorsement of your own post under a different name.

 

[ThreeAM]

I think it just falls under the category of tacky to come on here and give a strong endorsement of your own post under a different name.

That too!

 

[tall73]

c. revelatory ,but not saving.

Not sure what you mean, please elaborate.

The law only reveals our need, it doesn't fix it. Christ's righteousness fixes it.

True, but it is always the power of sin, just like from the very first commandment to not eat of the tree in Eden. Forbidden stuff tempts us.

If Christ's righteousness is so great that you are holy, then the law does not condemn you. You have nothing to fear from the law, and He need not change it. Therefore He got rid of the problem, which was not the law but sin.

I think He did both, in a way. Deep stuff, isn't it?

That it is

 

[ThreeAM]

Holo do you think God is fair and just?

 

[tall73]

Does this remind anyone else of a particular story?


Mar 3:1 Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there with a withered hand.
Mar 3:2 And they watched Jesus, to see whether he would heal him on the Sabbath, so that they might accuse him.
Mar 3:3 And he said to the man with the withered hand, "Come here."
Mar 3:4 And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
Mar 3:5 And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
Mar 3:6 The Pharisees went out and immediately held counsel with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him.

 

[Jerrysch]

I'd like to know what day of the week is the Sabbath and I don't want to hear the seventh day. Is it Saturday?

We see one of the first references to the Sabbath in Exodus 20: 8 "Remember the R676 sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 " R677 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; {in it} you R678 shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays F395 with you.

This tells us that the sixth day was the sabbath, that is all well and good but how do we know which one that is? Well, in the New(er) Testament we are told which day was the first; Luke
24:1 But R1032 on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. Clearly the Bible indicates that Saturday was the Sabbath.
As a side issue you might be interested to know that the Jews who were originally the people who were commanded to enjoy the Sabbath observed it from sundown on Friday night to sundown on Saturday night.

 

[GraceInHim]

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