What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

[Ophiolite]

It's interesting that, for so many people, the 'real' answers to the 'big' questions invoke ill-defined supernatural entities, have no explanatory or predictive power, and require special pleading... almost as if they are just a psychological ploy to banish uncertainty with imagined agency.

I thought it diplomatic and tactful of you to include the phrase "almost as if". I've rarely been accused of either tact or diplomacy and would simply note the phrase was probably unnecessary. (But it was courteous and thoughtful.)

 

[Shemjaza]

Why discuss Evolution when we really don't even know what started life?

In fact, we will probably never know how life started.

I don't think it is even possible to know how the Universe began either.

I am sometimes puzzled as to why we cannot know the answers to these two questions.

Such a strange existence we have.

All we have is a belief system in the end, nothing more and nothing less.

Evolution is important because it answers questions. It just doesn't answer all questions.

Where did the human species come from? It evolved from other hominids.

What happened to the dinosaurs? Mostly they went extinct, but a minority became birds.

How do species change? By mutation and genetic drift being acted on by natural selection and population isolation.


Characterising it as a "belief system" isn't really accurate, these are all answers that come from scientific evidence.

The minute details and the origin of the first life are currently mysteries, but that doesn't reduce the value that the theory of evolution provides to our knowledge of the physical universe.

 

[pitabread]

Why discuss Evolution when we really don't even know what started life?

Because we observe that populations of organisms change over time. And it turns out that knowing how that works is useful.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I thought it diplomatic and tactful of you to include the phrase "almost as if". I've rarely been accused of either tact or diplomacy and would simply note the phrase was probably unnecessary. (But it was courteous and thoughtful.)

Thanks - I said that because it's really just a (to me, plausible) hypothesis. In general, I try to be impersonal, especially in criticism, because I think people are more likely to consider what other people might think than what I think individually - and I'm not interested in slanging matches.

Also, it's a form of British understated implication - so I say "almost as if", or "some people might think", and they can make up their own minds whether that's my opinion too But my personal opinion doesn't really matter, what counts is that someone is aware of the issue or problem.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, in a democracy we get the government we deserve.

Not sure.
Maybe we'd require a popular vote instead of the current system.

 

[GodsGrace101]

How many is too many? A couple of hundred, maybe?

You're funny.

 

[Speedwell]

You're funny.

Because that's all there are.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Because that's all there are.

If you say so Speedwell,,,
I've been thru this before with you and it's pretty pointless.

There's an association whose FELLOWS number about 50 or so.

So I think it would be really easy to get to 200 scientists that do not believe evolution is a good model for how we got here...and I'm talking world-wide anyway.

Too much doubt.
I don't really see this doubt in other areas of science.

And there's plenty more here for those that might be interested and reject your theory that there are not even 200 scientists that frown upon evolution.

evolution bacteria to beethoven - YouTube

 

[Speedwell]

If you say so Speedwell,,,
I've been thru this before with you and it's pretty pointless.

There's an association whose FELLOWS number about 50 or so.

So I think it would be really easy to get to 200 scientists that do not believe evolution is a good model for how we got here...and I'm talking world-wide anyway.

Too much doubt.
I don't really see this doubt in other areas of science.

And there's plenty more here for those that might be interested and reject your theory that there are not even 200 scientists that frown upon evolution.

Can you name even 200?

evolution bacteria to beethoven - YouTube

 

[Speedwell]

There's an association whose FELLOWS number about 50 or so.

You don't mean the Discovery Institute by any chance? A gang of radical Calvinists with an ugly totalitarian political agenda and a concocted theory to use as what they call a 'wedge' for it? Their only real biologist, Michael Behe, abandoned them when he realized that he was being made to look a fool. The only people who are pushing ID now are creationists of the "evolution says there is no God" school, who don't understand that ID doesn't support biblical creationism either.

 

[klutedavid]

Is that a serious question? If it is then you must feel it pointless to discuss Greek History, the voyages of Columbus, or the Civil War. All are part of the same sequence.

Ultimately, knowledge in itself of Greek history, in the long run, benefits who? You will be gone in a few decades time. So what was all the fuss about in the long run?

You don't seem to be able to see that we have already been through a thousand generations already. All that accumulated knowledge that each generation gained and passed on. Was in effect, really a waste of time for the future generations. The outcome is the same, the end is the same for all generations.

I am shocked that you cannot see through this endless repetition of generational futility.

Your pessimism is noted, but probably unjustified.

Whether the glass is half full or half empty is irrelevant. All the accumulated knowledge did not make any real difference, to the generation I am from. They are old now and departure time is approaching for us all. My parent's generation have dropped off the perch. My grandparents are no more. Pointless and futile.

We have only been working on the problem for barely half a century, yet we already have some promising hypotheses and a wealth of basic data.

Mankind has been interested in nature for millennia. The study of nature is more focused and methodical, but the early life on this planet. Did not leave the evidence behind for you to find. The earth has recycled that evidence. You will only ever have theories on early life, never the evidence to support the theory.

It would be remarkable if a further thousand years of increasingly sophisticated analysis and orders of magnitude more data did not deliver a reliable answer.

Tell me whether the advances in scientific methodology have unlocked the universe. Tell me if other universes exist (String theory). How large is the universe? How did the universe really begin?

As far as I can see the big questions are increasing in difficulty exponentially. Has subatomic physics revealed the fundamentals of matter? Or are we realizing that science may not be up to the job of understanding subatomic physics?

You have been deluded into think that knowledge will set you free. Enable you to know. Know what?

You have a destiny with your own end and nothing will stop that, knowledge or no knowledge.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Can you name even 200?

A trick I will not fall for.

Also tricky.

 

[klutedavid]

Because we observe that populations of organisms change over time. And it turns out that knowing how that works is useful.

Not to you or me. We live are short life and then we leave this planet, usually in worse shape. Than when we arrived.

If you acquire some knowledge about say crocodiles or ferns. I don't think that will make a lick of difference to you or me. That kind of knowledge is largely useless.

We are actually involved in trying to understand what specific knowledge matters? Or if knowledge in itself, alters a destiny if we have one.

I am afraid that no one knows the answers to what we are supposed to be doing here. Surely not eating, killing, and reproducing the species. Given our enormous intellects.

We can always believe something. Yet the knowledge itself, the knowing, what to think about and what to do is unavailable to us.

I repeat, how long a crocodile lives is useless information. A thousand generations have already lived and died. The knowledge of biology made no difference to them. Even if farming practice improved, we became healthier. We still will pass and so will every coming generation.

The real problem has not been solved.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Ultimately, knowledge in itself of Greek history, in the long run, benefits who? You will be gone in a few decades time. So what was all the fuss about in the long run?

You don't seem to be able to see that we have already been through a thousand generations already. All that accumulated knowledge that each generation gained and passed on. Was in effect, really a waste of time for the future generations. The outcome is the same, the end is the same for all generations.

I am shocked that you cannot see through this endless repetition of generational futility.Whether the glass is half full or half empty is irrelevant. All the accumulated knowledge did not make any real difference, to the generation I am from. They are old now and departure time is approaching for us all. My parent's generation have dropped off the perch. My grandparents are no more. Pointless and futile.Mankind has been interested in nature for millennia. The study of nature is more focused and methodical, but the early life on this planet. Did not leave the evidence behind for you to find. The earth has recycled that evidence. You will only ever have theories on early life, never the evidence to support the theory.Tell me whether the advances in scientific methodology have unlocked the universe. Tell me if other universes exist (String theory). How large is the universe? How did the universe really begin?

As far as I can see the big questions are increasing in difficulty exponentially. Has subatomic physics revealed the fundamentals of matter? Or are we realizing that science may not be up to the job of understanding subatomic physics?

You have been deluded into think that knowledge will set you free. Enable you to know. Know what?

You have a destiny with your own end and nothing will stop that, knowledge or no knowledge.

Great post.

I was thinking about this lately.
If each generation could have passed on what it knew, we'd be so far ahead, and I don't mean in a knowledgeable way...but with what we learn about emotional problems, decision making, and life in general.

But, no, each generation has to learn for themselves.
The "elders" are not given much attention, and at times they are even put down for being old and not knowing anything. Some things I hear the young say to older persons makes me shutter.

So, yes, although knowledge is necessary and useful, in the end it is worth little. Some wise persons I know living up in high mountains know more about life than some that have studied for years.

And they always seem to believe in a higher being....
(well, not always, but mostly).

 

[klutedavid]

Because we observe that populations of organisms change over time. And it turns out that knowing how that works is useful.

In the short term I agree. In the long term, it alters nothing. we do not know and it appears we may never know.

I strongly believe that humanity will destroy life on this planet. How many species are extinct and directly from our destructive behavior, would be a huge number. Are we improving our management of the environment, or are we just multiplying and demanding more?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Not to you or me. We live are short life and then we leave this planet, usually in worse shape. Than when we arrived.

If you acquire some knowledge about say crocodiles or ferns. I don't think that will make a lick of difference to you or me. That kind of knowledge is largely useless.

We are actually involved in trying to understand what specific knowledge matters? Or if knowledge in itself, alters a destiny if we have one.

I am afraid that no one knows the answers to what we are supposed to be doing here. Surely not eating, killing, and reproducing the species. Given our enormous intellects.

We can always believe something. Yet the knowledge itself, the knowing, what to think about and what to do is unavailable to us.

I repeat, how long a crocodile lives is useless information. A thousand generations have already lived and died. The knowledge of biology made no difference to them. Even if farming practice improved, we became healthier. We still will pass and so will every coming generation.

The real problem has not been solved.

What is the real problem?
I believe it's not understanding our nature...
and we don't understand our nature because many do not believe God exists,,, and that there is absolute morality.

IF everyone truly was a disciple of Christ, and I mean a pure disciple - not persons with some nutty idea - this world would change in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[klutedavid]

Great post.

I was thinking about this lately.
If each generation could have passed on what it knew, we'd be so far ahead, and I don't mean in a knowledgeable way...but with what we learn about emotional problems, decision making, and life in general.

But, no, each generation has to learn for themselves.
The "elders" are not given much attention, and at times they are even put down for being old and not knowing anything. Some things I hear the young say to older persons makes me shutter.

So, yes, although knowledge is necessary and useful, in the end it is worth little. Some wise persons I know living up in high mountains know more about life than some that have studied for years.

And they always seem to believe in a higher being....
(well, not always, but mostly).

Academic knowledge can be handed down but common sense, and really knowing what to do. Is a generational issue that no one can solve.

That is why the continuous wars and internal conflicts plague mankind. Domestic violence and disputes. Increasing economic competition. Dwindling resources, global warming, growing world population, e.t.c.

There are no concrete solutions to these complex problems. Really nothing has changed over millennia because mankind can't change. We have a destiny it seems and nothing will stop it.

 

[pitabread]

If you acquire some knowledge about say crocodiles or ferns. I don't think that will make a lick of difference to you or me. That kind of knowledge is largely useless.

We're share a planet filled with other biological populations and are directly affected by those other populations. Further, having greater knowledge of biology in general (which includes biological evolution) allows for application of that knowledge. This includes direct application of the theory of evolution in applied biology like agriculture and medicine.

So yeah, it does effect you and me. Knowledge of evolution has real-world application and is hardly useless.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Academic knowledge can be handed down but common sense, and really knowing what to do. Is a generational issue that no one can solve.

That is why the continuous wars and internal conflicts plague mankind. Domestic violence and disputes. Increasing economic competition. Dwindling resources, global warming, growing world population, e.t.c.

There are no concrete solutions to these complex problems. Really nothing has changed over millennia because mankind can't change. We have a destiny it seems and nothing will stop it.

Well said.
The only thing we learn from history,,,
[is that we don't learn.]

History repeats itself......
and mankind remains stagnant on the important items you've listed above.

 

[Speedwell]

A trick I will not fall for.


Also tricky.

Well, PragerU has that reputation, so you shouldn't be surprised. But if you can't argue against the theory of evolution without misrepresenting it, why bother?