What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

[OldWiseGuy]

You're not a scientific thinker Old Guy (most people aren't, that's OK), and since none of this is about evolution maybe you should stop here. The last time you wrote about lake weeds and cutting firewood up north it didn't end well.

Science is tool that I use when I need it. I'm basically a mechanic.

You made a few drive-by observations based on scant information then 'dropped the mic', if I remember correctly.

 

[Gene2memE]

So here's the thing: The primary evidence that Christians have that God is real and that Christians alone have Him is spiritual, and only those to whom God chooses to reveal Himself and to give His Spirit will know this.

I love circular reasoning.

The evidence God is real is spiritual, but you only know this when you have the spirit (that God gives you).

You've basically argued here that any appeal to any argument or evidence is useless, because unless you already believe (have the Spirit) then you can't have evidence.

The reason we know that what the Bible says about the creation of the universe, and about everything else, past, present and future, is true is that according to what God says that He does in His word, He has given us His Spirit. Therefore we know that God is true and that His word is true.

More circles! Wheeee, this is fun!

We know the Bible is true, because we have God's word that it is true. Where is that word, in the Bible.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes. I really couldn't care less what people think about what I believe, except as it pertains to leading them to the knowledge of God, that they might be saved, and to glorifying Him. They'll find out the truth eventually; hopefully---by God's mercy---before they die or the Lord returns.

I doubt many will listen to you if you tell them the earth is 6,000 years old.

You SHOULD care.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I love circular reasoning.

The evidence God is real is spiritual, but you only know this when you have the spirit (that God gives you).

You've basically argued here that any appeal to any argument or evidence is useless, because unless you already believe (have the Spirit) then you can't have evidence.



More circles! Wheeee, this is fun!

We know the Bible is true, because we have God's word that it is true. Where is that word, in the Bible.

You're right of course.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I'm not sure that this equates to 'God did it'. To me, if it were the case that we are in a unique position in the cosmos for life, then this is no more a genuine theory than is 'the mud puddle resides in a hole just big enough for it to fit in' theory.

Yes - in a universe as large as ours, the Weak Anthropic Principle (here, that given a sufficiently large number of varied planets there will be some capable of supporting life), unsatisfying though it is, is hard to refute.

 

[Ophiolite]

So, the question remains,,,WHY are you so upset with these silly christian folk?

I realise this was directed at another member, but I hope you may find my reply useful to you.

I am not "upset with these Christian folk", but I am very "upset with these silly Christian folk". I dislike "silly". It constiutes a danger to individual humans, to communities, to humanity at large and to the entire biosphere. When the silliness is supported by idiosyncratic interpretations of Scripture, thereby invoking a supposed moral high ground, then damage can be exacerbated.

For the record, I am equally upset by silly <insert human category of your choice> folk, but your question specified the Christian variety.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I realise this was directed at another member, but I hope you may find my reply useful to you.

I am not "upset with these Christian folk", but I am very "upset with these silly Christian folk". I dislike "silly". It constiutes a danger to individual humans, to communities, to humanity at large and to the entire biosphere. When the silliness is supported by idiosyncratic interpretations of Scripture, thereby invoking a supposed moral high ground, then damage can be exacerbated.

For the record, I am equally upset by silly <insert human category of your choice> folk, but your question specified the Christian variety.

Interesting. It seems to me that silly folk have never had any power for any length of time. Some have, of course...Caesers, Kings...THESE silly folk could certainly do what you've described above.

But how do silly Christians endanger the human race?

Some Christians cannot believe in macro-evolution because there are too many scientists that cannot accept it. But I don't know anyone half serious that believes what fundamentalist Christians believe...it's just not possible to believe the earth is young.

I understand your point, but I don't understand HOW they could be of danger to ANYONE.

Some Christians do believe they hold the moral high ground...(maybe the same ones that believe in a young earth?) but most know that even atheists (!) could be very moral persons.

I wouldn't be so worried if I were agnostic,,,,look what happend with SSM. It wasn't stopped !
And I think it should have been, not because I'm Christian, but because it defies the Law of Nature.

If the silly Christians couldn't stop that,
and couldn't stop abortion,
what are you so worried about??

 

[Speedwell]

Interesting. It seems to me that silly folk have never had any power for any length of time. Some have, of course...Caesers, Kings...THESE silly folk could certainly do what you've described above.

But how do silly Christians endanger the human race?

Some Christians cannot believe in macro-evolution because there are too many scientists that cannot accept it. But I don't know anyone half serious that believes what fundamentalist Christians believe...it's just not possible to believe the earth is young.

I understand your point, but I don't understand HOW they could be of danger to ANYONE.

Some Christians do believe they hold the moral high ground...(maybe the same ones that believe in a young earth?) but most know that even atheists (!) could be very moral persons.

I wouldn't be so worried if I were agnostic,,,,look what happend with SSM. It wasn't stopped !
And I think it should have been, not because I'm Christian, but because it defies the Law of Nature.

If the silly Christians couldn't stop that,
and couldn't stop abortion,
what are you so worried about??

Now they have their very own President who is packing the courts in their favor.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Now they have their very own President who is packing the courts in their favor.

LOL
We take turns Speedwell.
Although the Court does last a long time.
There shoulda been a betta candidate....
Dontcha think?
I mean for the Dems....of course.

 

[Speedwell]

LOL
We take turns Speedwell.
Although the Court does last a long time.
There shoulda been a betta candidate....
Dontcha think?
I mean for the Dems....of course.

Yes, in a democracy we get the government we deserve.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Yes, in a democracy we get the government we deserve.

For most countries that wouldn't bother me. The problem with US presidents is that the rest of the world has to deal with his silliness, too and we have no say in the matter. Well, maybe the Russians do......

 

[Speedwell]

Some Christians cannot believe in macro-evolution because there are too many scientists that cannot accept it.

How many is too many? A couple of hundred, maybe?

 

[klutedavid]

Come up with a scientific theory that has equivalent or better explanatory* power for the origin and diversity of species on Earth, and equivalent or better application in fields of applied biology.

Until creationists can do that, everything else is irrelevant.

*(And for the record, "God made stuff" isn't an explanation.)

The origin of the universe and consequently the origin of life. Space time comes first then life.

You need a rock solid explanation with evidence to establish the origin of the universe. Start there first.

I will be sitting up there on that branch waiting.

 

[Speedwell]

The origin of the universe and consequently the origin of life. Space time comes first then life.

You need a rock solid explanation with evidence to establish the origin of the universe. Start there first.

I will be sitting up there on that branch waiting.

Why? The universe and life exist. That is a given. The theory of evolution is only an explanation of how life changed and diversified after it began. It is consistent with any number of possible explanations of how the universe and life began, including divine creation.

 

[klutedavid]

Why? The universe and life exist. That is a given. The theory of evolution is only an explanation of how life changed and diversified after it began. It is consistent with any number of possible explanations of how the universe and life began, including divine creation.

I know that and that is why the theories of the Big Bang or Evolution. Have nothing to do with answering the big questions.

Science does not offer the real answers, science just colors in the dots along the way.

 

[Speedwell]

I know that and that is why the theories of the Big Bang or Evolution. Have nothing to do with answering the big questions.

Science does not offer the real answers, science just colors in the dots along the way.

Right. Science tries to find out the "how" not the "who" or the "why."

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I know that and that is why the theories of the Big Bang or Evolution. Have nothing to do with answering the big questions.

Science does not offer the real answers, science just colors in the dots along the way.

It's interesting that, for so many people, the 'real' answers to the 'big' questions invoke ill-defined supernatural entities, have no explanatory or predictive power, and require special pleading... almost as if they are just a psychological ploy to banish uncertainty with imagined agency.

 

[klutedavid]

Why? The universe and life exist. That is a given. The theory of evolution is only an explanation of how life changed and diversified after it began. It is consistent with any number of possible explanations of how the universe and life began, including divine creation.

Why discuss Evolution when we really don't even know what started life?

In fact, we will probably never know how life started.

I don't think it is even possible to know how the Universe began either.

I am sometimes puzzled as to why we cannot know the answers to these two questions.

Such a strange existence we have.

All we have is a belief system in the end, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Why discuss Evolution when we really don't even know what started life?

Because we want to explore how and why life is so diverse.

 

[Ophiolite]

Why discuss Evolution when we really don't even know what started life?

Is that a serious question? If it is then you must feel it pointless to discuss Greek History, the voyages of Columbus, or the Civil War. All are part of the same sequence.

In fact, we will probably never know how life started.

Your pessimism is noted, but probably unjustified. We have only been working on the problem for barely half a century, yet we already have some promising hypotheses and a wealth of basic data. It would be remarkable if a further thousand years of increasingly sophisticated analysis and orders of magnitude more data did not deliver a reliable answer.

I don't think it is even possible to know how the Universe began either.

It's good to know your pessimism has a universal component. However, your personal incredulity has no impact upon the probability that the answer may be forthcoming after we've spent more than a century exploring the issue.

It's interesting to me that your doubts on these matter mirror your seeming doubts about evolution: you ignore the power of small steps extended over time and focus only on the limitations of small steps.

I am sometimes puzzled as to why we cannot know the answers to these two questions.

I have offered you a plausible explanation. We likely can know the answers to these questions if we spend sufficient time in intelligent enquiry. I expect you will reject that explanation. This does not puzzle me. I recognise the mind set.

All we have is a belief system in the end, nothing more and nothing less.

All you have is a belief system. Many of us have plausible models based upon well managed observation and oft-repeated testing.