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What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

Subduction Zone

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What funny rating?

I'm mentally stable and do not have schizophrenia.
I trust my experiences as being REAL.

I don't BELIEVE (think) I've had an experience...
I KNOW I've had an experience.

Your entire post makes no sense to me.
My post, #573 here where you broke the rules.

And peoples experiences are very often not real. You do not have to have schizophrenia to have false events. Your personal experiences should not be accepted if they are not repeatable.

Lastly you do not "know" that you had an experience. You only believe that you had one. Knowledge is demonstrable. If you cannot show evidence for your experience you only have mere belief.

That you do not understand my post only tells us that you do not understand the difference between knowledge and belief.
 
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Resha Caner

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And that was pretty much handwaving.

It's called a summary. Have you never seen an executive statement for a scientific paper? They're usually pretty short, 25 words or less. That is often followed by an abstract, and then the full paper. Or do you consider all that introductory material handwaving?

You only stated what you would like to see, not that it had ever been seen or how it would contradict the massive evidence for evolution. What a creationist needs is not only what he would like to see, but he also has to be able to explain all of the observations that already exist.

Yep. But you didn't ask for any of that. You launched right into an attack.

So let's start again.

Nope. Not interested. But as I said, if anyone else would like to expand the summary into a fuller explanation and discussion, let me know.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It's called a summary. Have you never seen an executive statement for a scientific paper? They're usually pretty short, 25 words or less. That is often followed by an abstract, and then the full paper. Or do you consider all that introductory material handwaving?



Yep. But you didn't ask for any of that. You launched right into an attack.



Nope. Not interested. But as I said, if anyone else would like to expand the summary into a fuller explanation and discussion, let me know.
You may be conflating a title with a summary. Papers tend to have titles, which tell very little, an abstract, and then the body of the paper.

But nice strawman. Can you post something of substance?
 
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Subduction Zone

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If someone else decides to pick up the conversation, we will see.

You probably do not understand what you presented. You said this:

"So here we are. In short, I would be interested in investigating the possibility of the rapid emergence of organisms from DNA pools rather than by mutation and inheritance."



Do you know how creationists tend to often make the mistake of concentrating only on natural selection or random variation? You are essentially seeing if changes can arise from selection (not necessarily natural selection) only. I can save you some time. It can't. And you are only proposing a form of theistic evolution that will not work in your example. Though related to creationism that is not creationism itself. You have no way of inserting a designer or God or what have you. It is mere handwaving. You could not devise an abstract form that much less an actual paper.[/B]
 
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Resha Caner

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You are essentially seeing if changes can arise from selection (not necessarily natural selection) only.

For those who might be thinking of jumping in, please don't let this distract you. I don't consider this an adequate elaboration of what I proposed.
 
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Subduction Zone

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For those who might be thinking of jumping in, please don't let this distract you. I don't consider this an adequate elaboration of what I proposed.
The question is how would you test this? You don't have to do the test yourself, but if you cannot think of a test all that you have is an untestable hypothesis and therefore cannot have scientific evidence for your beliefs. The challenge was to see if you could construct a way to get reliable evidence for your beliefs. That is why I said that this is mere handwaving. Without a method, even if you cannot do it yourself, of testing your idea that is what you are doing.
 
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GodsGrace101

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My post, #573 here where you broke the rules.

And peoples experiences are very often not real. You do not have to have schizophrenia to have false events. Your personal experiences should not be accepted if they are not repeatable.

Lastly you do not "know" that you had an experience. You only believe that you had one. Knowledge is demonstrable. If you cannot show evidence for your experience you only have mere belief.

That you do not understand my post only tells us that you do not understand the difference between knowledge and belief.
I broke the rules?
By thinking something you said was funny?
What's the smiling face for....it even says FUNNY on it.

OK.

I don't know the difference between knowledge and belief.

Bon Nuit.
Buenas Noches.
Buona Notte

:wave:
 
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46AND2

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I still haven't heard anything about the missing link.

There is no missing link. Even if there were no fossils on earth, we would still know evolution occurred. The link has been confirmed in our DNA for many years.
 
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SkyWriting

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Who said that it was meant to become life?

Unlike what anti-evolutionists want to think, it wasn't random elements magically coming together and making a 747. Physics and chemistry are NOT random. Atoms coming together to form molecules is not random. Molecules coming together and forming complex organic molecules is not random. Complex organic molecules coming together and forming proteins is not random. Complex organic molecules coming together and forming lipids is not random. Proteins coming together and forming self-replicating proteins is not random. The universe is full of examples of atoms coming together to form molecules, which come together to form complex organic chemicals, which come together to form the components of life.

Maybe it just started out as non-random physics and chemistry that just ended up BEING life.

What benefit is life to a chemical? Why does life persist? What benefit is life to a rock?
How does life help the planet? What is wrong with being a dead planet? Why do all planets remain lifeless except this one? What is missing from other planets keeping life from forming? What chemical properties lead to life? Why would sunlight increase the chances of life? Why does life self replicate?


Life’s Late Digital Revolution and Why It Matters for the Study of the Origins of Life
David A. Baum, Niles Lehman
Life (Basel) 2017 Sep; 7(3): 34. Published online 2017 Aug 25. doi: 10.3390/life7030034

Emergence of life in an inflationary universe
Tomonori Totani
Sci Rep. 2020; 10: 1671. Published online 2020 Feb 3. doi: 10.1038/s41598-020-58060-0 PMCID: PMC6997386

Primordial soup was edible: abiotically produced Miller-Urey mixture supports bacterial growth
Xueshu Xie, Daniel Backman, Albert T. Lebedev, Viatcheslav B. Artaev, Liying Jiang, Leopold L. Ilag, Roman A. Zubarev
Sci Rep. 2015; 5: 14338. Published online 2015 Sep 28. doi: 10.1038/srep14338
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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What benefit is life to a chemical? Why does life persist? What benefit is life to a rock?
How does life help the planet? What is wrong with being a dead planet? Why do all planets remain lifeless except this one? What is missing from other planets keeping life from forming? What chemical properties lead to life? Why would sunlight increase the chances of life? Why does life self replicate?

AMEN BROTHER! Who can truly explain, much less understand what force if you will, has left a dead body that leaves it inanimate.

If plant life needed sunlight to "develop", why "according to Scripture" were there plants already growing upon the face of the earth before God created the sun?

But read Science. We are star dust. Created within some distant exploded star. History testifies Humanity has ALWAYS worshiped the Sun; from Babylon through Rome. The children of God have been thrust into a fallen planet filled with Sun Worshipers.

So it would appear as if the world faces a dilemma;
-Believe Science
-Believe God

Romans 4
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
 
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SkyWriting

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AMEN BROTHER! Who can truly explain, much less understand what force if you will, has left a dead body that leaves it inanimate.

If plant life needed sunlight to "develop", why "according to Scripture" were there plants already growing upon the face of the earth before God created the sun?

But read Science. We are star dust. Created within some distant exploded star. History testifies Humanity has ALWAYS worshiped the Sun; from Babylon through Rome. The children of God have been thrust into a fallen planet filled with Sun Worshipers.


I don't believe in the literal creation week. But scientifically speaking, God is the obvious answer to the Cosmos existing for us to be astounded by.

Psalm 19:1-14

Romans 1:20

Genesis 1:1

Romans 1:19

Amos 5:8

Isaiah 40:26

Psalm 8:3

Psalm 8:1
 
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Subduction Zone

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I broke the rules?
By thinking something you said was funny?
What's the smiling face for....it even says FUNNY on it.

OK.

I don't know the difference between knowledge and belief.

Bon Nuit.
Buenas Noches.
Buona Notte

:wave:
Yes, you do owe me an apology. Your finding that funny only underscores your ignorance when it comes to this topic. And yes, you do not know the difference between knowledge and belief. A simple but true saying "If can't show it, you don't know it".
 
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Subduction Zone

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What benefit is life to a chemical? Why does life persist? What benefit is life to a rock?
How does life help the planet? What is wrong with being a dead planet? Why do all planets remain lifeless except this one? What is missing from other planets keeping life from forming? What chemical properties lead to life? Why would sunlight increase the chances of life? Why does life self replicate?


Life’s Late Digital Revolution and Why It Matters for the Study of the Origins of Life
David A. Baum, Niles Lehman
Life (Basel) 2017 Sep; 7(3): 34. Published online 2017 Aug 25. doi: 10.3390/life7030034

Emergence of life in an inflationary universe
Tomonori Totani
Sci Rep. 2020; 10: 1671. Published online 2020 Feb 3. doi: 10.1038/s41598-020-58060-0 PMCID: PMC6997386

Primordial soup was edible: abiotically produced Miller-Urey mixture supports bacterial growth
Xueshu Xie, Daniel Backman, Albert T. Lebedev, Viatcheslav B. Artaev, Liying Jiang, Leopold L. Ilag, Roman A. Zubarev
Sci Rep. 2015; 5: 14338. Published online 2015 Sep 28. doi: 10.1038/srep14338
Why? Thermodynamics is why. There are no feelings involved. There does not need to be a benefit to a chemical. It only has to lower the energy available for work.
 
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Resha Caner

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Okay. How?

I'll answer you in 2 parts: 1) What I did, 2) What more would need to be done. Further, understand this was a long journey - not just days or weeks, so it's difficult to capture every facet in just a few words.

1) What I did.

I created a list of axioms for biology. I couldn't find such a list anywhere, or at least not a consistent list, so I created my own. Reason: I knew I couldn't take on all of biology at once, so I wanted to focus on just a small part. The part I chose to focus on was self-organization and replication.

I educated myself on the mathematical models used for biology. Again, there wasn't anything standard - models varied widely. I chose to use TAM (Tile Assembly Method). I programmed a TAM model that could self-organize and replicate.

I ran simulations under various conditions. I was able to create systems that demonstrated descent with modification - one commonly accepted feature of evolution. One generation would mutate and pass on mutated traits to the next generation. However, under other conditions, descent with modification stopped and was replaced with emergence. New organisms would emerge directly due to transfers. In other words, in one case, through a succession of generations, the simulation produced a succession of modified descendants: A -> B -> C -> D -> E. In the other case, organisms emerged without respect to generation: A -> B, A -> C -> B, A -> D, A -> E -> A ... all kinds of combinations.

But I knew that wasn't good enough. The idea would need actual lab tests. My first thought was DNA computing. Of course DNA computing is meant to be an actual computer, not an organism. However, if the fundamental chemical building blocks of life could replicate my simulations, it would show the possibility of a biological system behaving similarly to my simulations. It would circumvent the ethics issues involved in doing such an experiment on actual life, with the main difference being a matter of complexity and boundary conditions.

If it did succeed, it would give indications of the potential, of what to look for in natural settings, and open discussions of what could possibly be done with something like bacteria or viruses in a lab.

2) What needs to be done

But the experiment never happened. I approached several journals, who confirmed that I needed lab experiments to accompany the simulations before they would publish. I approached several universities, offering to fund an experiment. They said the amount of funding I offered was only sufficient for an undergrad project, and that what I was proposing was beyond an undergrad. They declined to contribute any funding of their own, but suggested I seek to join a university research team to pursue the funding myself. I don't qualify, because I don't have a degree in biology - two master's degrees (engineering & history), but not biology. So, my only recourse was to seek a degree in biology - not a smart move for a mid-career engineer with a family.

In the end, then, it comes back to what I stated in one of my early posts. What would motivate me to pursue this further? Nothing. It remains a hypothesis. Even moreso, as I also indicated earlier, I'm less concerned with the idea being rejected or falsified than I am with the flippant shrug and the remark, "Meh. What you're describing is just another mechanism of evolution." Why? Because I would consider such a reaction either disingenuous or a failure to appreciate what I'm saying ... attitudes that seem in abundance here.
 
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