What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

[Subduction Zone]

Because its possible for the universe not to exist.

Is it? That would be hard to prove. I am not saying that the universe has to exist, but we do not know if it is possible for it not to exist.

 

[46AND2]

P.S.
BUT THEY BETTER HURRY UP!

Are you familiar with Last Thursdayism? How do you know god did not create everything last Thursday with all memories embedded? How does one measure god's involvement?

If you have to account for the supernatural in everything, you cannot learn anything. Literally every observation could be illusion.

 

[Speedwell]

Oh, but I see a concerted effort to prove there is no God,,,rather than an honest effort to come to some conclusion...(although this is happening anyway).

I just brought up Newton because science ASSUMED there was a God .... What about Galileo....he was imprisoned for discovering that the earth was not the center of the universe (or what was known of it at that time)....however, he did believe in God.

I think that today, science does mean to prove there is no God. That does not leave the science community with an open mind.

I don't agree. For one thing, too many scientists believe in God themselves. I think you have fallen victim to creationist propaganda: that if you don't agree with an Evangelical Protestant literal interpretation of Genesis you must be an atheist.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I reread it.
Right...NOT EVERYTHING REQUIRES A CAUSE...
The first cause cannot possibly have a cause or it woudn't be the first cause...

As to options...what would another option be?
1. Something coming from nothing.
2. A deity.
3......?

It depends how one defines 'nothing'. It may be impossible for 'nothing' to exist in our universe. There is a lot that we do not know. If you read the book "A Universe From Nothing" you can see how the universe arising from no mass and no volume does not violate the laws of physics. Or if you wish there is a synopsised one hour video of it that you can watch on YouTube.

 

[Subduction Zone]

LOL
I could agree with that...
but it works both ways!

Look at Lawrence Krauss....
He's decided that nothing is something!
How desperate does one have to be?

That is a misrepresentation of his position. As a Christian you should know better. He does not look like the desperate one here. Misrepresenting what others claim is not a wise debating technique.

Krauss's point that if one defines "nothing" as no matter and no space that a universe from nothing is not impossible. "Nothing" may be an impossible state.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh, but I see a concerted effort to prove there is no God,,,rather than an honest effort to come to some conclusion...(although this is happening anyway).

I just brought up Newton because science ASSUMED there was a God .... What about Galileo....he was imprisoned for discovering that the earth was not the center of the universe (or what was known of it at that time)....however, he did believe in God.

I think that today, science does mean to prove there is no God. That does not leave the science community with an open mind.

If anyone practicing science assumed that there was a God they were just as wrong as those that assume that there is no God. And I do not see anyone trying to disprove God. At the most they only show that there is no need for a God. That is not the same as disproving God.

 

[46AND2]

For example the idea of a circle. Or number "5". Or sets.

Those are just descriptions of our universe...if our universe didn't exist, then neither would they.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Hey OldWiseGuy,
I love the story of Adam and Eve and am most willing to learn anything new about it. There is so much to glean from the story.

But, this just isn't the place....
I'm confused to tell you the truth....
Was the snake an angel that became a snake?
Do we not know what it was?

I DO understand that the snake represented evil in those times...

No ordinary snake. Do a study on serpent, dragon.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Are you familiar with Last Thursdayism? How do you know god did not create everything last Thursday with all memories embedded? How does one measure god's involvement?

If you have to account for the supernatural in everything, you cannot learn anything. Literally every observation could be illusion.

I took the red pill.

BUT,,, who can know for sure?
Maybe we're just one big video game and some kid is having a lot of fun?

God's involvement cannot be measured.
If He didn't do all this...I think we're in some kind of trouble.

 

[GodsGrace101]

No ordinary snake. Do a study on serpent, dragon.

Will do.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don't agree. For one thing, too many scientists believe in God themselves. I think you have fallen victim to creationist propaganda: that if you don't agree with an Evangelical Protestant literal interpretation of Genesis you must be an atheist.

This is possible...however, what I'm hearing is concerning an ID...not God as how a fundamentalist might think of Him. Just an intelligent design.
But, really, what else could it be but a god??
Perhaps you're right.

 

[GodsGrace101]

It depends how one defines 'nothing'. It may be impossible for 'nothing' to exist in our universe. There is a lot that we do not know. If you read the book "A Universe From Nothing" you can see how the universe arising from no mass and no volume does not violate the laws of physics. Or if you wish there is a synopsised one hour video of it that you can watch on YouTube.

No SZ,,,,I was not talking about how nothing may be impossible to exist in our universe. All we see exists in our universe.

I was talking about BEFORE the universe came to be....
we CANNOT KNOW what nothing is....
Is it a white space..that would be something...
We just cannot know what NOTHING is.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That is a misrepresentation of his position. As a Christian you should know better. He does not look like the desperate one here. Misrepresenting what others claim is not a wise debating technique.

Krauss's point that if one defines "nothing" as no matter and no space that a universe from nothing is not impossible. "Nothing" may be an impossible state.

Oh...I didn't know I was debating!
I don't have enough knowledge to debate this...
I'm just stating my simple opinions.

And hey, I may be a Christian but I'm not perfect, so please don't throw that at me....anyway I wasn't misrepresenting....I've heard him say, and I think he wrote a book on this,,,,that there's no such thing as nothing...

If I'm misrepresenting him, it's because I did not understand him....this is what I understood him to be saying --- or at least that's what normal folk hear.

 

[GodsGrace101]

If anyone practicing science assumed that there was a God they were just as wrong as those that assume that there is no God. And I do not see anyone trying to disprove God. At the most they only show that there is no need for a God. That is not the same as disproving God.

God cannot be DISPROVED.
He can only be proved.

But I agree with your statement:
If anyone practicing science assumed that there was a God they were just as wrong as those that assume that there is no God.

And you said you do not see ANYONE trying to disprove God...
Krauss is one....
Really, you cannot say ANYONE, because it would not be true...there is ALWAYS someone.

 

[46AND2]

I took the red pill.

BUT,,, who can know for sure?
Maybe we're just one big video game and some kid is having a lot of fun?

God's involvement cannot be measured.
If He didn't do all this...I think we're in some kind of trouble.

If god's involvement cannot be measured, does it therefore not make sense to exclude any such value when considering an observation?

 

[GodsGrace101]

If god's involvement cannot be measured, does it therefore not make sense to exclude any such value when considering an observation?

When YOU say measured....
you must mean SCIENTIFICALLY.
If not, I apologize.

God's involvement can be measured FOR ME because I believe in a spiritual being that created everything...His name is God...the God of the bible.

So my observation is that HE created everything...
but MY observation has no value to YOU....
so I try to keep MY God out of these discussions since they should be scientific discussions.

I mean, I'm not here to discuss my Christianity.
Is this wrong in your opinion?

 

[46AND2]

When YOU say measured....
you must mean SCIENTIFICALLY.
If not, I apologize.

God's involvement can be measured FOR ME because I believe in a spiritual being that created everything...His name is God...the God of the bible.

So my observation is that HE created everything...
but MY observation has no value to YOU....
so I try to keep MY God out of these discussions since they should be scientific discussions.

I mean, I'm not here to discuss my Christianity.
Is this wrong in your opinion?

Yes, scientifically. This is what we were discussing. You said that scientists should take the supernatural into account. My point is that it is not feasible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

No SZ,,,,I was not talking about how nothing may be impossible to exist in our universe. All we see exists in our universe.

I was talking about BEFORE the universe came to be....
we CANNOT KNOW what nothing is....
Is it a white space..that would be something...
We just cannot know what NOTHING is.

The point is that "nothing" in and out of our universe may be a nonexistent state. It is physically impossible in our universe, even a perfect vacuum has countless virtual particles in it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

God cannot be DISPROVED.
He can only be proved.

But I agree with your statement:
If anyone practicing science assumed that there was a God they were just as wrong as those that assume that there is no God.

And you said you do not see ANYONE trying to disprove God...
Krauss is one....
Really, you cannot say ANYONE, because it would not be true...there is ALWAYS someone.

How would one "prove God"? Earlier you mentioned ID, as far as evolution goes there is no evidence for an Intelligent Designer. At best one could claim to have found evidence for an Incompetent Designer. The various "proofs" given by IDists have all been refuted.

And where and when has Krauss ever tried to disprove God? I think that you are mistaken. Now one can disprove the God of the Bible if one is at all literal in their interpretation of that book. Which is why it is not a wise belief to have. But I have never seen anyone try to disprove God.

And of course the demand that others disprove God is not a proper argument. The burden of proof is upon those that claim a God exists.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The point is that "nothing" in and out of our universe may be a nonexistent state. It is physically impossible in our universe, even a perfect vacuum has countless virtual particles in it.

I know.
That's why it's not nothing.
I'm sorry I'm not making myself clear....