What creationists need to do to win against evolution.

[solid_core]

Unsupported assertion, and does not logically follow.

It does logically follow, because you can follow the chain of causes to God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Re-read what you just wrote. It's internally inconsistent. By stating there is a first cause, it automatically means "not everything requires a cause."



Those aren't the only two options.

I reread it.
Right...NOT EVERYTHING REQUIRES A CAUSE...
The first cause cannot possibly have a cause or it woudn't be the first cause...

As to options...what would another option be?
1. Something coming from nothing.
2. A deity.
3......?

 

[Speedwell]

Universe and abstract ideas are different categories. The universe is physical. Abstract ideas are not.

Abstract ideas only exist in the minds of the people thinking about them.

 

[solid_core]

Doesn't matter. How can abstract ideas exist if there is no universe for them to exist in?

The universe is physical. Abstract ideas are not. Therefore abstract ideas do not need the universe to exist. You do not need a physical triangle for the idea of triangle to exist.

 

[Speedwell]

I reread it.
Right...NOT EVERYTHING REQUIRES A CAUSE...
The first cause cannot possibly have a cause or it woudn't be the first cause...

As to options...what would another option be?
1. Something coming from nothing.
2. A deity.
3......?

Something always existing.

 

[solid_core]

Abstract ideas only exist in the minds of the people thinking about them.

Its like to say that the laws of nature exist because people are thinking about them. Or logic. Or mathematics.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, all of the time. Odds are that it was a church group that paid for that talk. It is unsurprising that there was not anyone that could refute him there. My main complaint with most creationists is that they are not looking for answers, they are looking for excuses to believe. If the answers tell them that they are wrong they do not seem to want to hear them.

LOL
I could agree with that...
but it works both ways!

Look at Lawrence Krauss....
He's decided that nothing is something!
How desperate does one have to be?

 

[solid_core]

Doesn't matter. How can abstract ideas exist if there is no universe for them to exist in?

Abstract ideas do not exist "in" the universe. They are outside of space or time.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Or he could have been the Satan of the Old Testament--God's left-hand man, a trickster as he was in the story of Job. Like the Coyote of Southwest Native American mythology or Loki in the Norse pantheon.

Funny!
Did Mr. Coyote get to crawl on his belly forever and ever?
Or Loki?

It certainly was satan in some form....
Snakes don't care what men do...
But I DO believe it was a snake....
Or at least it was in that story.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Which god should science take into consideration? How should his involvement in observations be measured?

No answer to the second question...
except to say that if a deity did the creating...then he created EVERYTHING, no need to concern ourselves with his involvement -- it was total.

As to which god?
Je ne sais pas.

I'm Christian so I think Yaweh through the Word, which is Jesus.

But I'm willing to wait and see.

 

[pitabread]

Because its possible for the universe not to exist.

Are we sure about that?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Which god should science take into consideration? How should his involvement in observations be measured?

P.S.
BUT THEY BETTER HURRY UP!

 

[46AND2]

Abstract ideas do not exist "in" the universe. They are outside of space or time.

How can they exist ANYWHERE if nobody exists to think them?

BTW, can you give me an example of an uncaused abstract idea? I contend that all ideas are also caused.

 

[pitabread]

Abstract ideas do not exist "in" the universe. They are outside of space or time.

What is the definition of an abstract idea?

 

[solid_core]

Are we sure about that?

The Big Bang?

 

[solid_core]

How can they exist ANYWHERE if nobody exists to think them?

BTW, can you give me an example of an uncaused abstract idea? I contend that all ideas are also caused.

For example the idea of a circle. Or number "5". Or sets.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yet God does not figure in his theories.

Nor does it claim to. In particular it does not claim that there is no God.

Oh, but I see a concerted effort to prove there is no God,,,rather than an honest effort to come to some conclusion...(although this is happening anyway).

I just brought up Newton because science ASSUMED there was a God .... What about Galileo....he was imprisoned for discovering that the earth was not the center of the universe (or what was known of it at that time)....however, he did believe in God.

I think that today, science does mean to prove there is no God. That does not leave the science community with an open mind.

 

[solid_core]

What is the definition of an abstract idea?

Something that rules how our universe behaves, but is immaterial.

For example the idea that the triangle will have only three angles.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Something always existing.

Speedwell,,,,
But science has determined that the universe did not always exist....

Do you not agree with this?

 

[solid_core]

Its a midnight here, so I am going to sleep. Good night.