What conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

[Joshua260]

How do I know? Because I was there. Since you've admitted you weren't there, you can't possibly know that I wasn't there.

Wow...clever. Better to mock the truth than admit it, eh?

 

[Akureyri]

Wow...clever. Better to mock the truth than admit it, eh?

Only mocking the truth of the discussion between you and me.

The problem with your arguments is that you cannot rule out the possibility that the universe has existed forever. So if you do rule out that the universe could have existed forever, you're not being intellectually honest.

I'm an atheist and I am not even ruling out the possibility of a god existing. At least I'm open to evidence which would revise my belief. Are you open to evidence which would revise your belief?

 

[Joshua260]

Only mocking the truth of the discussion between you and me.

The problem with your arguments is that you cannot rule out the possibility that the universe has existed forever. So if you do rule out that the universe could have existed forever, you're not being intellectually honest.

I'm an atheist and I am not even ruling out the possibility of a god existing. At least I'm open to evidence which would revise my belief. Are you open to evidence which would revise your belief?

I'm not ruling anything out at all. The fact is I have presented at least two scientific evidences and at least two philosophical evidences to support that the universe had an definite beginning. You're the one being intellectually dishonest because:
1) while the majority of scientists (including atheists) say that they believe that the universe had a definite beginning and cite at least two scientific evidences to support their position, you refuse to accept it which, without ANY evidence at all to support your belief that the universe has lasted forever, amounts to a clear act of faith on your part...which you firmly deny.
2) while you're argument against a definite beginning to the universe is "were you there to witness it?", you refuse to admit that I am just as justified in using exactly the same logic to say that you cannot prove that the Earth is millions of years old or that man and ape descended from the same ancestor.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread has had a small clean up. As a reminder, the Statement of Purpose for this forum -
Exploring Christianity SOP - PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING!! - includes this:

Debate
This forum is for discussion of questions with non-Christians. There are some areas of theology in which different Christians may believe differently.
In these cases, we would ask Christians to refrain from debating the matter here. You may point out that there is a differing viewpoint, but please do not use this forum to debate with other Christians. If Christians wish to discuss various doctrines with other Christians, they should do so in the Theology forums.


​

Please stick to the topic.

​

 

[Akureyri]

I'm not ruling anything out at all. The fact is I have presented at least two scientific evidences and at least two philosophical evidences to support that the universe had an definite beginning.

How do you know there aren't any philosophical evidences to support that the universe did not have a beginning?

You're the one being intellectually dishonest because:
1) while the majority of scientists (including atheists) say that they believe that the universe had a definite beginning and cite at least two scientific evidences to support their position, you refuse to accept it which, without ANY evidence at all to support your belief that the universe has lasted forever, amounts to a clear act of faith on your part...which you firmly deny.
2) while you're argument against a definite beginning to the universe is "were you there to witness it?", you refuse to admit that I am just as justified in using exactly the same logic to say that you cannot prove that the Earth is millions of years old or that man and ape descended from the same ancestor.

How does it make any difference if the universe had a definite beginning?

If a god exists, it could exist independent of how the universe began.

Why do you think (or appear to think) that a god could not exist if we live in a world which didn't have a beginning?

 

[lesliedellow]

Christians: What conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

As a non-believer, there are certain conditions which if in place, would provide sufficient evidence for me to believe a god exists. I am willing to revise my beliefs if the evidence is in place.

Indeed, and what conditions might they be? In my experience, and failing all else, atheists will just come out with, "that doesn't mean goddidit", as a means of explaining away inconvenient facts.

 

[Joshua260]

How do you know there aren't any philosophical evidences to support that the universe did not have a beginning?

I've given you 2 scientific evidences and 2 philosophical evidences that support the view that the universe had a definite beginning. Feel free to provide evidence to support your view if you can.

How does it make any difference if the universe had a definite beginning?

What I said was "while you're argument against a definite beginning to the universe is "were you there to witness it?", you refuse to admit that I am just as justified in using exactly the same logic to say that you cannot prove that the Earth is millions of years old or that man and ape descended from the same ancestor."

The point of my statement is that if you deny the beginning of the universe with a statement of "were you there to witness it?", then it would be unfair of you to criticize me if I refuse to accept your belief in an old-age earth or that man and ape share a common descent if I say the same thing to you (were you there to witness it?).

If a god exists, it could exist independent of how the universe began.

Why do you think (or appear to think) that a god could not exist if we live in a world which didn't have a beginning?

I'm not making that argument. I've been asking you how come you believe in some things (like an old earth and a common descent of man and ape) but refuse to believe that the universe had a beginning when scientific evidence is cited for that? It's a pure act of faith on your part to believe that the universe has always existed (you have absolutely no proof whatsoever to support that view), but you refuse to acknowledge it as a such. Atheist passionately deny having any kind of faith and claim that they only believe what can be proven by science, but that is exactly what you have...a blind faith in an ever-lasting universe. Yet, you refuse to admit it.

 

[Akureyri]

Christians: What conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

As a non-believer, there are certain conditions which if in place, would provide sufficient evidence for me to believe a god exists. I am willing to revise my beliefs if the evidence is in place.

Indeed, and what conditions might they be? In my experience, and failing all else, atheists will just come out with, "that doesn't mean goddidit", as a means of explaining away inconvenient facts.

I would be happy to share with you what conditions - if met - would cause me to revise my beliefs. But first, can you tell me what conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

 

[Akureyri]

How do you know there aren't any philosophical evidences to support that the universe did not have a beginning?

I've given you 2 scientific evidences and 2 philosophical evidences that support the view that the universe had a definite beginning. Feel free to provide evidence to support your view if you can.

I will. But first can you repost the 4 evidences which you say you provided.

How does it make any difference if the universe had a definite beginning?

What I said was "while you're argument against a definite beginning to the universe is "were you there to witness it?", you refuse to admit that I am just as justified in using exactly the same logic to say that you cannot prove that the Earth is millions of years old or that man and ape descended from the same ancestor."

I'm not positing that the Earth is millions of years old and that man and ape descended from the same ancestor. So it's a false analogy.

The point of my statement is that if you deny the beginning of the universe with a statement of "were you there to witness it?", then it would be unfair of you to criticize me if I refuse to accept your belief in an old-age earth or that man and ape share a common descent if I say the same thing to you (were you there to witness it?).

OK, so you weren't there to witness the creation of the universe. Well, I was there and I observed first hand that it was not created by a god. Since you weren't there, how can you know for sure that I wasn't there?

If a god exists, it could exist independent of how the universe began.

Why do you think (or appear to think) that a god could not exist if we live in a world which didn't have a beginning?

There is no evidence that any gods really exist. But that's not what I was getting at. If a god does exist, it still doesn't tell us anything about how the universe came into existence or whether or not the universe always existed.

I'm not making that argument. I've been asking you how come you believe in some things (like an old earth and a common descent of man and ape) but refuse to believe that the universe had a beginning when scientific evidence is cited for that?

I'm not claiming those beliefs. I'm asking how you can be sure the universe hasn't existed forever?

It's a pure act of faith on your part to believe that the universe has always existed (you have absolutely no proof whatsoever to support that view), but you refuse to acknowledge it as a such. Atheist passionately deny having any kind of faith and claim that they only believe what can be proven by science, but that is exactly what you have...a blind faith in an ever-lasting universe. Yet, you refuse to admit it.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not claiming those beliefs. I'm asking how you can be sure the universe hasn't existed forever?

 

[food4thought]

I answered your question, Akureyri... but you did not answer mine.

How does one know anything?

 

[Akureyri]

I answered your question, Akureyri... but you did not answer mine.

How does one know anything?

There's a difference between knowing a person and knowing something to be true. I'm talking about knowing something to be true.

When you go outside on a sunny day, you know it is bright because your eyes perceive brightness. When you own a dog and you see it wag its tail and hear it bark, you know it is a dog.

 

[Joshua260]

I will. But first can you repost the 4 evidences which you say you provided.


I'm not positing that the Earth is millions of years old and that man and ape descended from the same ancestor. So it's a false analogy.


OK, so you weren't there to witness the creation of the universe. Well, I was there and I observed first hand that it was not created by a god. Since you weren't there, how can you know for sure that I wasn't there?


There is no evidence that any gods really exist. But that's not what I was getting at. If a god does exist, it still doesn't tell us anything about how the universe came into existence or whether or not the universe always existed.


I'm not claiming those beliefs. I'm asking how you can be sure the universe hasn't existed forever?

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm not claiming those beliefs. I'm asking how you can be sure the universe hasn't existed forever?

Everything in your post has already been addressed in this thread. I've answered all your questions and I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that the universe has always existed. I'll be looking forward to whatever you come up with.

 

[Akureyri]

Everything in your post has already been addressed in this thread. I've answered all your questions and I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that the universe has always existed. I'll be looking forward to whatever you come up with.

Did I say I had evidence that the universe has always existed?

How do you know the universe hasn't always existed?

 

[lesliedellow]

How do you know the universe hasn't always existed?

Because, if it had, entropy would have run its course an infinitely long time ago, and we would today be "living" in a heat dead universe. The fact that "living" doesn't need quotation marks speaks for itself.

And your next piece of special pleading is?

 

[Joshua260]

Did I say I had evidence that the universe has always existed?

How do you know the universe hasn't always existed?

So in summary, I have given you 4 evidences that the universe had a definite beginning, and you cannot provide ANY to support your claim that the universe has always existed. Therefore, your claim is solely an act of faith.

You'll make very little progress "exploring Christianity" until you admit this fact; the fact that you posess a belief based solely on faith. Your resistance to admit this has become a "stumbling block" for you.

 

[ForJesusChrist]

I wasn't miraculously proofed onto the earth and the earth was not created by some 'bang' so I know for a fact in my heart its God and you could put me anywhere and I'd still be on God side. NOT MATTER WHAT

 

[Hentenza]

How do you know the universe hasn't always existed?

Its expanding. That makes the universe finite in both time and space.

 

[Akureyri]

How do you know the universe hasn't always existed?

Because, if it had, entropy would have run its course an infinitely long time ago, and we would today be "living" in a heat dead universe. The fact that "living" doesn't need quotation marks speaks for itself.

And your next piece of special pleading is?

How do you know if the universe had always existed, there never would have been a "sweet spot" - at which life could thrive - sometime before the universe turned into a heat dead universe?

 

[Akureyri]

So in summary, I have given you 4 evidences that the universe had a definite beginning, and you cannot provide ANY to support your claim that the universe has always existed. Therefore, your claim is solely an act of faith.

What you provided were reasons you believe the universe had a definite beginning. But that's not what I asked. I asked how you can know for sure it hasn't existed forever?

I didn't make any claims that the universe has existed forever. So there is no claim of mine which could be a result of faith.

You'll make very little progress "exploring Christianity" until you admit this fact; the fact that you posess a belief based solely on faith. Your resistance to admit this has become a "stumbling block" for you.

What belief do you think I possess which is based solely on faith?

 

[Akureyri]

I wasn't miraculously proofed onto the earth and the earth was not created by some 'bang' so I know for a fact in my heart its God and you could put me anywhere and I'd still be on God side. NOT MATTER WHAT

And who created God?