What conditions would have to be in place for you to not believe a god exists?

[ebia]

For me, to prove God does not exist, you have to: 1. prove that you can create real intelligence on computers, not the fake AI, has to be able to feel, learn (not the training algorithms, the free adapt of not programed environments, the Tuning test is a start, but falls far short.) , create. 2. prove that you can digitize animal/human brains (sort of like the first one) 3. Need fossil records or living examples of the missing links, i.e. explain how the egg appears without chicken, or how this was transited. 4. Explain how gravity works, how magnetics/electricity interchange work. I know the phoneme, I know the mathematic formulas on them, I just can't find an explanation. If you can do the above, then I will say you are 50% there. The hardest part is there is no way to prove God (a being that is very powerful and just) doesn't exist.

So, essentially, you believe in a god of the gaps?

 

[dcalling]

And...youd have to prove that Computer assembled itself from materials, raw chemicals, in the form of an explosion that coelesed into a box with buttons and a built-in mouse (even over billions of years as if that is going to help) .

Yep, sort of like that because computers are far more simpler than human brain, so in theory it might easier for nature to develop computers first

 

[dcalling]

So, essentially, you believe in a god of the gaps?

Don't understand what you meant.

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

With respect to any gods that aren't logically impossible, I am an agnostic atheist. With respect to gods that are logically impossible (such as one that can do anything and knows everything), I am a gnostic atheist. My willingness to accept evidence isn't an indication of agnosticism or atheism. It is an issue of being honest with myself in the face of evidence.


Good question. Most likely intelligent people designed the city. Intelligent people have also designed cities that are in considerable disarray.


Once again, most likely intelligent people wrote the books.


You have one hit and an unknown number of misses. How many times have species come into existence and then died out because they weren't as "perfectly designed" as humans?


Can you please share with me how and why you came to the conclusion that if something is unexplained, it must have been caused by a god?


How do you know the Bible predicts these things?

The thought experiments about the city and the library of books show that such order, complexity, functionality and information content come from an intelligent Creator.

To say that the city and library are not intelligently created makes no sense whatsoever.

Since living things, especially cells are so much more complex, ordered, functional and information rich than any city or library of books, there is only one possible conclusion. That is God created it all. I just used real science to prove that.

I know that the Holy Bible has predicted things because God said He would do that in the Holy Bible. And these predictions have been extremely accurate. I know this because I have read and studied the Holy Bible extensively.

So there must be a Creator, God.
The Holy Bible claims to be the revelation of that God.
The Holy Bible proves that in a number of ways, one being exact predictions from thousands of years ago with exact timing given.
Since the Holy Bible is the true revelation of God, then what it says is true.

The Holy Bible clearly says that Jesus Christ is God who took on flesh and died on the cross to pay for our sins and then rose from the dead. Simply trusting in Jesus Christ as God as Saviour and what He did on the cross gives everlasting life.

 

[Akureyri]

Akureyri, there is absolutely nothing I can say that will convince you my faith experience with God through Jesus Christ is true because in you heart you have already been given the most profound and compelling evidence for God outside of the kind of personal experience of fellowship and communication and love that Jesus has provided me... that evidence is the equivalent of God parting space-time, poking His "head" into our universe and saying: "Hi! I'm God."

How do you know that what you are experiencing is really with God through Jesus Christ?

Every time you think a thought, breath air, see your computer screen, make sense of what I write, make judgments about me, express love, feel pain, eat food, take a dump, sleep, dream, smell, have a wound heal, get a pimple, blow your nose, think about the future, remember the past, reproduce, look at the stars, look at the cell, ponder which developed first: flight or the instincts necessary to fly and land safely, imagine how the heck nothing could expand into a super-complex universe with intricately balanced physical laws, galaxies, stable stars in a relatively safe zone in a galaxy, planets at just the right distance, just the right sized moon, oceans, atmosphere, duck-billed platypus', bombardier beetles, giraffes, woodpeckers, fireflies, the Bible, fulfilled prophecy, Jesus of Nazareth, an empty tomb, hundreds of transformed disciples who would rather die than deny what they preached, which they would have absolutely known for sure to be either true or false, yet they all suffered persecution, and many died rather than deny it, written words recording it all...

up to here, God has given this to you, and yes, He has parted the heavens and said hello to you.

How do you know God has parted the heavens and said hello to me?

you can either respond to that, or do whatever mental gymnastics are necessary for you to convince yourself that He hasn't. For me...

those written words moved something in my soul, promising God living in me, leading me, comforting me, strengthening me, transforming me... believing, praying, accepting... a pure white liquid light presence glowing in my heart, a still small voice telling me the right thing to do, a vision of the souls of two believers I was praying with, looking like pure white light human shaped spirits, eventual demonic attacks against my mind (also spoken of by the Bible), falling, failing, despairing, being called out of it by love, being restored, trying again, having hope and purpose and a reason to be. Learning how to truly live, truly love, truly die to myself and serve God and others before myself... failing, falling, despairing, being lifted up by faith, persevering, hoping... ongoing.

Believe what you want... I cannot fathom any circumstances that could convince me there is no God. I still wonder, I still doubt some things, but faith in God is just not negotiable.

Did you arrive at your beliefs through some evidence? If so, what is the evidence? If not, then how did you arrive at your beliefs?

 

[Akureyri]

Do you think there would be less religious debate if God came down here and offered tours of Heaven?

If he did offer tours of heaven, I would accept the offer and take a tour.

 

[Akureyri]

If there must be a creator, then who created God?
1. No one made God who is the first cause. An Infinite Cause is necessary to bring into existence , from nothing, a Finite effect such as our Cosmos. God is infinite...always was and always is and always will be. He has no beginning and no end. God is self sustaining unlike Ourselves.

How do you know there has to be a first cause?

How do you know the universe hasn't existed forever?

How do you know that if God exists, that he wasn't created?

How do you know we could not create or love without God?
2. Because things like love, reason, abstract thinking, rationale, logic, will, emotions, etc....are completely impossible of coming from Materials and raw Chemicals leftover from a Big Bang. When you start interjecting into a Finite existence things like the highly personal, highly intelligent, and enormous specified information by way of instructions (as in DNA).. such things can only come from an existing like source. It is ludicrous to believe love can come from materials because things like love and and logic cant be weighed nor can they come from inanimate objects .

How do you know such things can only come from an existing like source?

How do you know that emotions like love can't simply be products of the human brain?

How do you know what you experience transcendentally is a god?
3. We all experience the creation about us..and this creation is filled with so much complexity, engineering, and design required for Us to be on this particular planet....that it is logical our personal Transcedent Creator is trying to get our attention. We need not have met the Creator face to face to know that he has showed himself thru his creative works --- hardly anyone meets the Creator/Builder of a used house they buy , but the Owner knows it took one because of the leftover personal and intelligent based effects. As a result of creation , which is the biggest miracle of all, this Creator promises that if we are willing to move closer in his direction to engage in getting to know him deeper and genuinely....they he will show even more of his presence to that person ; this comes in the way of him coming to live in our Souls upon receiving his global offer of salvation in Christ. After we do, a definite change is felt , realized, an inward change takes place followed by outward actions of a totally different kind than prior . There is a power that transforms the hardest of hearts to one of purity, righteousness, and great love --- no psychology book or pulling up on ones own bootstraps can achieve a Soul changing drastic experience .

How do you come to the conclusion that a personal transcendent creator is trying to get our attention?

How do you know that the "creative works" you've seen are the result of a supreme being and not just results of natural occurrences?

How do you know there is a spiritual presence both in this universe and beyond this universe?
4. Because God himself is Spirit and he gave us a spiritual nature incorporated as part of our Soul . We were made with the capacity to know God spiritually because that was his desire and so we are all crafted with this nature. Some choose to excersise it while others don't . When we have faith in Gods existence and his love toward us....it opens the channel for spiritual connection to take place. And it does starting with receiving Christ who is the Creators name as Savior , King, and Lord --- the change in myself after many years of worldly living due to God residing in and working in my life....has produced incredible results . Something I never knew was possible.

How do you know humans have a spiritual nature?
How do you know humans have a soul?

What if some archaeologists reported that they had discovered that the resurrection of Jesus never occurred. Let's say you heard about it on the Discovery channel and on CNN, but you never spoke directly with the archaeologists. Would that be enough to convince you?
5. I wouldn't believe THAT Archeologist because Archeology has already uncovered so much to confirm Christ existed , was crucified, and arose in addition to the internal and external historical evidence for the N.T. being a very credible historical document ...in fact...it far surpasses ancient notables such as Plato an Aristotle in evidence . The N.T. has been placed at 99.9 percent accurate as far as textural criticism is concerned and the Dead Sea Scrolls found in 1947 confirmed that the N.T. Manuscripts went completely unchanged except for some grammatical errors and punctuation . Further, we have the N.T. manuscripts coming in as the closest to any event of ancient history to the actual event (25 years) which is more than 50 times closer than most other ancient historical events. And these events were eye witnessed by the very Authors of the N.T. In addition, external historical evidence is plentiful attesting to Christ, his death, and resurrection from NON Christian Historians from that time period . The historical evidence and archeological evidence for Christ , combined, should be enough for any serious Seeker to cast his vote for Christ and the only thing left (which is the hardest to do) , is to submit Ones entire life to Christ because it hits at our very Pride and Ego in allowing Ourselves to be OWNED by Another. But for those who can, it is a welcomed change and one with no regrets both now, and most certainly after physical death which is the gateway to spending an eternity with this Creator who loves us almost beyond belief . Best of all...its totally free because God wants as many of Us to come to him, as possible. I trust one day you will make this crucial decision...and only then....will it become increasingly clear to you who this Christ truly is .

Is there something you can envision - that if it occurred - it would cause you to revise your belief?

How do you differentiate between a belief and a delusion? If a person is deluded, would they know they have been deluded? How can you know you haven't been deluded into believing the things about God which you claim are true? More to the point, do you really know these things about God are true?

I can recommend a very very good book for all the evidence you could possibly require for God, The Bible , Christ, his death, his resurrection...while at the same time the book scrutinizes the competing Atheist view (all under one convenient cover. It is by far, my favorite book) .

Meanwhile, here is a great site for the honest Seeker : Answers for Atheists and Agnostics

Last time I checked, the Bible didn't provide any evidence for a supernatural or supreme being. I'm open to revising my beliefs if the appropriate evidence is brought forward.

 

[Akureyri]

For me, to prove God does not exist, you have to:
1. prove that you can create real intelligence on computers, not the fake AI, has to be able to feel, learn (not the training algorithms, the free adapt of not programed environments, the Tuning test is a start, but falls far short.) , create.

Why is the default position that there is a god?

Do you assume that the Norse god Thor exists unless it can be demonstrated that it doesn't exist?

2. prove that you can digitize animal/human brains (sort of like the first one)

In the absence of this advance in technology, why does it follow that a god does exist?

3. Need fossil records or living examples of the missing links, i.e. explain how the egg appears without chicken, or how this was transited.

Why is it assumed that without fossil records and/or living examples of the missing links that a god exists?

4. Explain how gravity works, how magnetics/electricity interchange work. I know the phoneme, I know the mathematic formulas on them, I just can't find an explanation.

Back when it was not understood why snow falls from the sky, would an explanation of how snow falls from the sky been enough to convince believers in a god to revise their belief?

If you can do the above, then I will say you are 50% there. The hardest part is there is no way to prove God (a being that is very powerful and just) doesn't exist.

How do you come to the conclusion that the lack of proof of there being no god (or gods) suggests that a god must exist?

There is no way to prove that there aren't little blue men crawling around the center of Neptune. Does it therefore follow that there must be little blue men in the center of Neptune?

 

[Akureyri]

And...youd have to prove that Computer assembled itself from materials, raw chemicals, in the form of an explosion that coelesed into a box with buttons and a built-in mouse (even over billions of years as if that is going to help) .

A working computer is evidence that there must have been an intelligent designer (IBM, Dell, etc.) behind it.

Is the failure to show that a computer could assemble itself from raw materials through an explosion enough to demonstrate that a god exists?

If true, then it would also be enough to demonstrate that the Norse god Thor must exist. Do you have any evidence that the Norse god Thor doesn't exist?

I'm curious why you take the position that something must exist unless it can be shown it doesn't exist. This means you must believe in every god which has ever been posited but hasn't been disproved.

 

[Akureyri]

The thought experiments about the city and the library of books show that such order, complexity, functionality and information content come from an intelligent Creator.

To say that the city and library are not intelligently created makes no sense whatsoever.

Agreed. The city and library were developed and/or created by the intelligence of humans.

Since living things, especially cells are so much more complex, ordered, functional and information rich than any city or library of books, there is only one possible conclusion. That is God created it all. I just used real science to prove that.

Are you sure you're looking at 100% of the samples? While you know the number of hits, do you know the number of misses?

If things are so complex that there must have been a creator behind it, then such creator is even more complex. And following your rule that complex things must have had a creator, what even more complex thing created your complex creator?

I know that the Holy Bible has predicted things because God said He would do that in the Holy Bible. And these predictions have been extremely accurate. I know this because I have read and studied the Holy Bible extensively.

What are the specifics of those predictions? What was predicted, when was it predicted and what happened to show the prediction was accurate?

So there must be a Creator, God.
The Holy Bible claims to be the revelation of that God.
The Holy Bible proves that in a number of ways, one being exact predictions from thousands of years ago with exact timing given.

Please provide an example of an exact prediction which came true?

Since the Holy Bible is the true revelation of God, then what it says is true.

How do you know the Bible is the true revelation of God?

The Holy Bible clearly says that Jesus Christ is God who took on flesh and died on the cross to pay for our sins and then rose from the dead. Simply trusting in Jesus Christ as God as Saviour and what He did on the cross gives everlasting life.

How do you know what is written in the Bible is the truth?

 

[Joshua260]

How do you know the universe hasn't existed forever?

You ask like a billion questions which, in my view, makes it really difficult for an organized discussion to proceed. I'm just stating that up front so you will understand why I choose to address just one question for now.

The majority of scientists believe that the universe had a definite beginning. They base this conclusion mostly on two evidences: the red-shift readings from distant galaxies and what is referred to as the background radiation. So I'm curious...do you NOT accept what the majority of scientist believe, and if not, do you have any evidence to support your disagreement or do you just disagree solely on faith?

I believe the best philosophical argument for a beginning of the universe resides in the arguments against the possibility of an infinite regress. See the following syllogism which uses the idea of successive addition:

1. A collection formed by successive addition cannot be an actual infinite.
2. The temporal series of past events is a collection formed by successive addition.
3. Therefore, the temporal series of past events cannot be actually infinite.

The key to understanding the above argument is in premise #2. Since we have TODAY, then we have reached a limit to an "actual" infinity. Tomorrow, we will add one more day to what we THOUGHT was infinite. Therefore, there WAS a beginning to the universe, because the collection of past events is NOT an actual infinity.

 

[Joshua260]

How do you know there has to be a first cause?

I prefer the Leibniz version of the cosmological argument. It goes like this:

1. Everything that exists has an explanation for its existence.
2. The universe exists.
3. Therefore, the universe has an explanation for its existence.

(btw, notice that this argument is NOT dependent on whether the universe had a beginning or not)

Now the question then is "what is the explanation for the existence of the universe?" Since the universe contains all of our "nature", then we are left with a "super"-natural explanation.

Premise #1 is achieved through inductive reasoning. We see a ball on the ground (because a ball player left it there), we see the earth (because it formed from mass spun off from the sun), we see the solar system (because it formed of space dust), and so forth. Finally we get to the entire universe and suddenly atheists make an exception to everything we normally experience. They just say that the universe just exists as a "brute fact"...with no explanation for how it got to be here. You can certainly deny the truth of premise #1 if you like, but just be aware that you are making an exception to everything we experience just so that you can deny that God exists. I don't really see any logical reason for making that exception, but it's your prerogative to believe in it if you like...another act of faith on your part.

 

[Akureyri]

How do you know the universe hasn't existed forever?

You ask like a billion questions which, in my view, makes it really difficult for an organized discussion to proceed. I'm just stating that up front so you will understand why I choose to address just one question for now.

The majority of scientists believe that the universe had a definite beginning. They base this conclusion mostly on two evidences: the red-shift readings from distant galaxies and what is referred to as the background radiation. So I'm curious...do you NOT accept what the majority of scientist believe, and if not, do you have any evidence to support your disagreement or do you just disagree solely on faith?

Thanks for reading the thread and I appreciate your question. I don't hold a belief either way - that the universe had a beginning or didn't have a beginning.

Which would you say more closely identifies your position:
1) You are certain as to whether or not the universe had a beginning
2) You are uncertain as to whether or not the universe had a beginning

I believe the best philosophical argument for a beginning of the universe resides in the arguments against the possibility of an infinite regress. See the following syllogism which uses the idea of successive addition:

1. A collection formed by successive addition cannot be an actual infinite.
2. The temporal series of past events is a collection formed by successive addition.
3. Therefore, the temporal series of past events cannot be actually infinite.

The key to understanding the above argument is in premise #2. Since we have TODAY, then we have reached a limit to an "actual" infinity. Tomorrow, we will add one more day to what we THOUGHT was infinite. Therefore, there WAS a beginning to the universe, because the collection of past events is NOT an actual infinity.

How can you know the collection of past events doesn't go back infinitely?

And if it doesn't go back infinitely, then what does that tell us about a god. It would mean that a god doesn't go back in time infinitely.

 

[Akureyri]

I prefer the Leibniz version of the cosmological argument. It goes like this:

1. Everything that exists has an explanation for its existence.
2. The universe exists.
3. Therefore, the universe has an explanation for its existence.

(btw, notice that this argument is NOT dependent on whether the universe had a beginning or not)

Now the question then is "what is the explanation for the existence of the universe?" Since the universe contains all of our "nature", then we are left with a "super"-natural explanation.

How can you be sure that there weren't natural causes for the universe?

More importantly, if the universe - a physical entity - had a cause, then whatever that cause was would be by definition natural. Call it supernatural. But it would merely be natural events outside the universe.

Premise #1 is achieved through inductive reasoning. We see a ball on the ground (because a ball player left it there), we see the earth (because it formed from mass spun off from the sun), we see the solar system (because it formed of space dust), and so forth. Finally we get to the entire universe and suddenly atheists make an exception to everything we normally experience. They just say that the universe just exists as a "brute fact"...with no explanation for how it got to be here. You can certainly deny the truth of premise #1 if you like, but just be aware that you are making an exception to everything we experience just so that you can deny that God exists. I don't really see any logical reason for making that exception, but it's your prerogative to believe in it if you like...another act of faith on your part.

It doesn't require faith to not believe that God exists. Do you require faith to not believe that the Norse god Thor exists? Do you require faith to not believe that thousands of orange unicorns are roaming the plains of southwestern Kansas?

 

[food4thought]

How do you know that what you are experiencing is really with God through Jesus Christ?

Let's say a Being literally rent space-time in the sky above you, and claimed to be the eternal, uncreated Creator of this universe. Would you believe Him? How would you be able to know He was telling the truth, and not some highly advanced alien that evolved in some distant galaxy and had highly advanced science? Is there anything God could do to prove to you He is who He says He is?

How do you know God has parted the heavens and said hello to me?

Do you understand the concept of hyperbole?

Did you arrive at your beliefs through some evidence? If so, what is the evidence? If not, then how did you arrive at your beliefs?

Perhaps you did not understand my post... maybe the Apostle Paul will be more understandable to you:

Romans 1:19-20 NASB because that which is known about God is evident within them*; for God made it evident to them. (20) For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made**, so that they are without excuse.


*thus my references to your human capacity to think, remember, judge, imagine, contemplate

**thus my references to your body functions, the cosmos, the animal kingdom

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Agreed. The city and library were developed and/or created by the intelligence of humans.


Are you sure you're looking at 100% of the samples? While you know the number of hits, do you know the number of misses?

If things are so complex that there must have been a creator behind it, then such creator is even more complex. And following your rule that complex things must have had a creator, what even more complex thing created your complex creator?


What are the specifics of those predictions? What was predicted, when was it predicted and what happened to show the prediction was accurate?


Please provide an example of an exact prediction which came true?


How do you know the Bible is the true revelation of God?


How do you know what is written in the Bible is the truth?

Just to address some of your points.

There are no exceptions to the fact that a designed object proves the existence of the intelligent being that made it. There are billions of people and many trillions of objects that have been produced. The only people who could not determine that these objects were made by intelligence are those that could not reason. For example, a baby.

Nowhere in the universe will one of these objects be created by random processes.

The laws of science show that it would take energy directed by intelligence to produce such order, complexity, functionality and information content to overcome the natural tendency of physical processes to disorder.

If any of these objects were found on say Mars, everyone would believe in the presence of an intelligent being that made it.



I am not sure that the Creator has to be more complex than His creation. The word of God says God is a Spirit. So maybe God is pure Spirit.

The Holy Bible has made a number of predictions. These passages were written thousands of years ago. While that is impressive, there is a little bit more to these predictions.

For example,it is easy to say that the population of people will increase dramatically in the future. But The Holy Bible actually gives the very time period for that dramatic growth. The Holy Bible gives a period of time when most of its prophecies will be fulfilled. That time is circa 2000 or our time. So when the Holy Bible predicted a dramatic growth in population, the time was also predicted. It also gave an indication of the number of people by giving specific numbers in the book of Revelation that would indicate the billions of people alive today.

The Holy Bible predicted a time of worldwide mass travel in the book of Daniel. Again the Holy Bible predicted that that would happen exactly in our time.

The Holy Bible also predicted in the book of Daniel the increase of knowledge that has happened in our time. Again the Holy Bible predicted that that would happen exactly in our time.

The Holy Bible also predicted the 2000 year history of the church in the book of Revelation. This is an exact match with the exact sequence and many detail were given in this prediction.

The Holy Bible also predicts that the true implications of the vast complexity of life proving God beyond all doubt would be revealed precisely at our present time.

Since living things, especially cells are so much more complex, ordered, functional and information rich than any city or library of books, there is only one possible conclusion. That is God created it all. I just used real science to prove that.

I know that the Holy Bible has predicted things because God said He would do that in the Holy Bible. And these predictions have been extremely accurate. I know this because I have read and studied the Holy Bible extensively.

So there must be a Creator, God.
The Holy Bible claims to be the revelation of that God.
The Holy Bible proves that in a number of ways, one being exact predictions from thousands of years ago with exact timing given.
Since the Holy Bible is the true revelation of God, then what it says is true.

The Holy Bible clearly says that Jesus Christ is God who took on flesh and died on the cross to pay for our sins and then rose from the dead. Simply trusting in Jesus Christ as God as Saviour and what He did on the cross gives everlasting life.

 

[Joshua260]

Thanks for reading the thread and I appreciate your question. I don't hold a belief either way - that the universe had a beginning or didn't have a beginning.

Why not just say "I don't know"?

Which would you say more closely identifies your position:
1) You are certain as to whether or not the universe had a beginning
2) You are uncertain as to whether or not the universe had a beginning

I'm at least as certain that the universe had a definite beginning as you are that the earth is really millions of years old or that apes and men evolved from the same ancestor.

How can you know the collection of past events doesn't go back infinitely?

You apparently do not understand what an "actual" infinity is. An actual infinity would not be something to which we could "add to". Since we can add each day to all of what has come before, then the idea of an "actual" infinity is an absurdity in logic.

And if it doesn't go back infinitely, then what does that tell us about a god. It would mean that a god doesn't go back in time infinitely.

The mistake in your logic is that you are assuming that God resides *within* what scientists call "space-time". That's why God referred to himself as "I am"; there is no "I began to be" in reference to God..he just is.

 

[Joshua260]

How can you be sure that there weren't natural causes for the universe?

By the employing the same laws of logic that atheists use. What do you think? Is it logical that a non-existent thing could make itself exist?

More importantly, if the universe - a physical entity - had a cause, then whatever that cause was would be by definition natural. Call it supernatural. But it would merely be natural events outside the universe.

To be clear, I am using the following Merriam-Webster definition of "supernatural":
"of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe"

It doesn't require faith to not believe that God exists. Do you require faith to not believe that the Norse god Thor exists? Do you require faith to not believe that thousands of orange unicorns are roaming the plains of southwestern Kansas?

I was refering to the amount of faith you are employing to make an exception to what we normally experience: that whatever exists has an explanation for its existence. For no apparent reason, atheists typically assert that the universe exists just as a "brute fact" and without explanation for its existence. Those atheists that assert this belief do so purely based on faith...no evidence whatsoever, and in fact contrary to what we normally experience.

So in summary, what the argument proposes is that since everything we've ever seen has an explanation for its existence, then there's no reason not to believe that the universe has an explanation for its existence also. Further, since it would seem illogical that the universe could have come into existence all on its own, then it would be logical to reason that something outside of the "observable universe" could be the explanation for its existence. By the Merriam-Webster definition cited above..."supernatural". Since this something would necessarily exist outside of space-time, then there is no requirement for a time in which this something "began to exist". So, now we can further reason that this something would not only be supernatural, but eternal as well.

 

[Akureyri]

How do you know that what you are experiencing is really with God through Jesus Christ?

Let's say a Being literally rent space-time in the sky above you, and claimed to be the eternal, uncreated Creator of this universe. Would you believe Him? How would you be able to know He was telling the truth, and not some highly advanced alien that evolved in some distant galaxy and had highly advanced science? Is there anything God could do to prove to you He is who He says He is?

Yes there is. If God is real, there are many things he could do to prove to me he is real. I'd be happy to share with you what some of those things are. But first, I would appreciate it if you could kindly tell me how it is you know that what you are experiencing is really with God through Jesus Christ.

How do you know God has parted the heavens and said hello to me?

Do you understand the concept of hyperbole?

I notice that you like to answer questions with questions. We're not going to make much progress that way - unless your question is to ask for clarification of my question. Perhaps a better method would be to answer my question and then follow with your question.

How do you know God has parted the heavens and said hello to me?

Did you arrive at your beliefs through some evidence? If so, what is the evidence? If not, then how did you arrive at your beliefs?

Perhaps you did not understand my post... maybe the Apostle Paul will be more understandable to you:

Romans 1:19-20 NASB because that which is known about God is evident within them*; for God made it evident to them. (20) For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made**, so that they are without excuse.

So you arrived at your beliefs through some written words in a book. I'm very curious - can you please explain how you come to the conclusion that mere written words in a book provide extraordinary evidence that is on a par with the claims made by many Christians.

 

[Akureyri]

Just to address some of your points.

There are no exceptions to the fact that a designed object proves the existence of the intelligent being that made it.

The descriptor you've used - 'designed' - suggests there is intelligence behind it. There is no evidence that the universe was designed.

There are billions of people and many trillions of objects that have been produced. The only people who could not determine that these objects were made by intelligence are those that could not reason. For example, a baby.

Nowhere in the universe will one of these objects be created by random processes.

How can you be sure of this? For example, let's say I have 100 dice. I roll them as many times as necessary until they all land on 6. I then show reveal to you only the instance in which they all landed on 6. Did they all land on 6 due to a random process?

The laws of science show that it would take energy directed by intelligence to produce such order, complexity, functionality and information content to overcome the natural tendency of physical processes to disorder.

If such order did come about through a higher intelligence, then the higher intelligence would be even more complex and of even higher order. Following your rules, this higher intelligence would also be directed by a higher intelligence.

Is there any rule that says you can't have an infinite regression of higher intelligences?

If any of these objects were found on say Mars, everyone would believe in the presence of an intelligent being that made it.

I am not sure that the Creator has to be more complex than His creation. The word of God says God is a Spirit. So maybe God is pure Spirit.

What evidence do you have that a spirit could design complex things?

The Holy Bible has made a number of predictions. These passages were written thousands of years ago. While that is impressive, there is a little bit more to these predictions.

For example,it is easy to say that the population of people will increase dramatically in the future. But The Holy Bible actually gives the very time period for that dramatic growth. The Holy Bible gives a period of time when most of its prophecies will be fulfilled. That time is circa 2000 or our time. So when the Holy Bible predicted a dramatic growth in population, the time was also predicted. It also gave an indication of the number of people by giving specific numbers in the book of Revelation that would indicate the billions of people alive today.

Please provide the chapters and verses where these very specific predictions were made. Also please provide what occurred - including dates & locations - to show that these predictions became accurate.

The Holy Bible predicted a time of worldwide mass travel in the book of Daniel. Again the Holy Bible predicted that that would happen exactly in our time.

What exactly is a worldwide mass travel? Were specific dates and times identified in the prediction? Were specific geographic locations identified in the prediction?

The Holy Bible also predicted in the book of Daniel the increase of knowledge that has happened in our time. Again the Holy Bible predicted that that would happen exactly in our time.

Likewise, I could easily predict that there will be increase of population in our time. And when there is, that would make me a prophet of the same magnitude as the person who predicted in the book of Daniel that there would be increase of knowledge.

The Holy Bible also predicted the 2000 year history of the church in the book of Revelation. This is an exact match with the exact sequence and many detail were given in this prediction.

What were the specifics of the prediction?

The Holy Bible also predicts that the true implications of the vast complexity of life proving God beyond all doubt would be revealed precisely at our present time.

There is no objective evidence that any god has ever been revealed. Do you realize this means that prediction has failed?

Since living things, especially cells are so much more complex, ordered, functional and information rich than any city or library of books, there is only one possible conclusion. That is God created it all. I just used real science to prove that.

You're using a God of the Gaps argument. It goes like this: "I don't know, so that means God did it". How do you feel about using God as a substitution for things you don't know?

I know that the Holy Bible has predicted things because God said He would do that in the Holy Bible. And these predictions have been extremely accurate. I know this because I have read and studied the Holy Bible extensively.

You haven't provided a single specific prediction which ended up becoming true. I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to get across.

So there must be a Creator, God.
The Holy Bible claims to be the revelation of that God.
The Holy Bible proves that in a number of ways, one being exact predictions from thousands of years ago with exact timing given.
Since the Holy Bible is the true revelation of God, then what it says is true.

How do you know the Bible is the true revelation of God?

The Holy Bible clearly says that Jesus Christ is God who took on flesh and died on the cross to pay for our sins and then rose from the dead. Simply trusting in Jesus Christ as God as Saviour and what He did on the cross gives everlasting life.

How do you know that trust in Jesus Christ gives everlasting life? Has this ever been demonstrated to be true?