What commandments is Jesus talking about?

[ace of hearts]

"I and my Father are One" ~ John 10:30

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

​

What does this verse mean to you? I know how it is normally used in this forum is why I ask.

John 5:30 ~ I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

What does this mean to you? Once again I know how it normally used here. I''m not providing my opinion for a reason.

John is providing a written record of Jesus' theme - just as my Father....so am I. Jesus was addressing unity - not creating a division.

That's agreeable.

John 15:9 ~ As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Remain in My love.

John 15:5 ~ "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me.​

 

[mkgal1]

This is a much different kind of post from your first few. What happened?

You were probably misunderstanding me because of your presumptions, is my guess. I think that's the case for a lot of the disagreement in this thread.

 

[ace of hearts]

I'm curious.....those of you that are so adamant about the Law having nothing to do with us, modern-day Christians.....has this occurred?

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.​

No, but you miss LK 24:44

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

You also appear to not understand Jer 31:31-33.

 

[BABerean2]

"I and my Father are One" ~ John 10:30

The New Covenant is a higher standard than the Old Covenant, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.



Matthew 5:17-20 is further explained by the Apostle Paul in Galatians 3:16-29. Here Paul reveals the temporary nature of the Sinai Covenant. Paul said the law was “added” 430 years “after” the promise made to Abraham “until” the seed(Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.



Later in Matthew chapter 5 Christ contrasts the two covenants below with the words “But I say…”


Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mat 5:23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,

Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Mat 5:25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.

Mat 5:26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY.'

Mat 5:28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


Mat 5:31 "Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'

Mat 5:32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.


Mat 5:33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.'

Mat 5:34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne;

Mat 5:35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

Mat 5:36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.

Mat 5:37 But let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


Mat 5:38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'

Mat 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Mat 5:40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.

Mat 5:41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

Mat 5:42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.


Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

Mat 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

Mat 5:45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Mat 5:47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?

Mat 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.


The Old Covenant and the New Covenant cannot be one and the same, based on a clear contrast between the two covenants which is found in the New Testament. Confirmation of the contrast between the Old Covenant and New Covenant is found below.



2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

(Why did Paul compare the ten commandments to a ministry of death?)

.

 

[Dkh587]

Do you mean when we're in union with Christ? As His body?

What I mean is that we can fulfill the law every day by how we live.

Fulfilling the law is not something exclusive to Christ, even though it is incorrectly taught that fulfill means to obey every single commandment down to the letter and get rid of it.

For example, Christ was not a woman, therefore he could not and did not obey the commandments given to women regarding their monthly period.

The Apostle Paul speaks on us fulfilling the law via love:

Romans 13:8-10 NIV

Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.

The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Love does no harm to a neighbor.

Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[mkgal1]

The original question was about the will of the Father and the will of Christ - and if they're the same. You responded with this:

The words "My commandments", are not the same as the words "My Father's commandments", in John 15:10.

Notice the word "Father's" in the second part of the passage.

What do you think?

To which I responded with this post:

"I and my Father are One" ~ John 10:30

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

John 5:30 ~ I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

​

John is providing a written record of Jesus' theme - just as my Father....so am I. Jesus was addressing unity - not creating a division.

John 15:9 ~ As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Remain in My love.

John 15:5 ~ "I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me.​

And this is how you responded to that:

The New Covenant is a higher standard than the Old Covenant, not for our salvation, but for our conduct.

We've established that. But, in the context of this conversation, it seems as if you're assigning the Old Testament to the Father and assigning the New Testament to Jesus (and, in doing so, you're dividing up the Trinity). The New Covenant was always the plan - from the beginning (as it says in John 1:1). Christ and the Father are One. They have the same will.

The Old Covenant and the New Covenant cannot be one and the same, based on a clear contrast between the two covenants which is found in the New Testament. Confirmation of the contrast between the Old Covenant and New Covenant is found below.

I've not said the Old Covenant and the New Covenant are one - just that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are one.​

 

[mkgal1]

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

(Why did Paul compare the ten commandments to a ministry of death?)

That's a good question - and I'm working that out. I'm also confused by "glory as passing away" and wonder what was meant by that.

Paul also wrote:

Romans 7:12
Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.​

 

[mkgal1]

Quoting 119 Ministries:

..... without God’s law presenting itself as a “ministry of death” we would never realize that we are under the “Law of Sin and Death” and thus require a savior. If we never realize that we need a savior, then we would remain deceived in the Law of Sin without the Law of God.

Paul was clear that it was actually the glory, or esteem of the law, that was being brought to an end.

2 Corinthians 3:7-8
…because of its glory, which was being brought to an end…

What we then learn is that it is not the Law of God that was brought to an end, but the glory of the law was brought to an end because of Israel’s disobedience. The law has glory when we do it. When we sin and break the law of God it profanes the Word of God, His law. It removes the glory of the law. So the problem is disobedience, which reduces the glory of God’s law.

We also learn that the glory of the law is to be restored, and we are told that this time it will be both greater and lasting in the New Covenant. We are told that this is done through the “ministry of the Spirit.”

This is why Paul references the Spirit in Romans 8 as contrary to the “Law of Sin and Death”: ~ 2 Corinthians 3:7-8 – Exactly What Came to an End, the Glory or God’s Law?

 

[mkgal1]

Later in Matthew chapter 5 Christ contrasts the two covenants below with the words “But I say…”


Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.'

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Your argument here doesn't make sense to me. On one hand you're stating that the instruction in the Torah (the Old Testament first five books) is "bondage" and "the ministry of death" and gone.....and then seem to be arguing that Jesus' - even MORE stringent instruction - is freedom (but it's based on the foundation of the Law - the instruction given in the Torah).

IOW.....just to give an example: If I said to my child, "I want you to come home tonight" (that would represent the Torah's instruction - instruction you're calling bondage and ministry of death)....but then my husband tells our child, "I want you home at 10PM" (that would compare to the more stringent instruction of Jesus - which you're saying is NOT bondage and nothing to do with the original instruction given). That's just like saying Dad's instruction was nothing like the instruction I'd given. That my instruction was done away with. We BOTH want for our child to not stay out all night. We have the same desire. But you are suggesting my original instruction is bondage, but my husband is the one that gave stricter instruction.

How can that be?

 

[BABerean2]

Quoting 119 Ministries:

They are modern day Judaisers (Hebrews Roots) who ignore the verses found below.


Act 15:10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(Peter could not have been talking about circumcision, because it was something he did bear.)


Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment—

I am not the one calling the Sinai Covenant "bondage", in Galatians 4.
It was Paul who did that in Galatians 4:24-31.
Do you believe what Paul said?

I am not the one calling the Old Covenant a "ministry of death engraved on stones" in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
That would also be the Apostle Paul.

Your disagreement is with Paul, instead of me.

.

 

[mkgal1]

I'd asked:

What about our other relationships?

Do you not believe that God is concerned with how we treat others? I seem to recall Jesus speaking about this - the importance of how we treat people? Is it not "failing" as a Christian - somewhat - when a Christian wife cheats on her husband (commits adultery)? Sure.....there's the redemption of God (and His forgiveness) - but certain words and behavior have an effect on others (and sometimes the hurt is far too deep that others just can't trust us again - a line was crossed that they never expected - and the damage/the consequence of that sin is a death of the relationship). Shouldn't we have that reverence in our behaviour with other people?

From testimony, I'm sure my dad committed adultery and never confess and my mother forgave him without this confession to her. My mother said I do and meant every single word of it to the end. That is true Christianity.

I was actually focused on the person committing the adultery. Are THEY "failing" as a Christian - or are THEY bringing glory to God's name? Maybe place yourself in the position of the spouse that's been betrayed.

If you glean from your parent's marriage that a "true Christian wife" is one that stays with her husband even after he commits adultery (which I don't have a problem with - IF the relationship has truly been restored through work at regaining trust) - then you will, most likely, suffer some consequences for that in your relationships. Marriage is a bilateral covenant. When the vows are broken - so is the marriage. As you posted earlier - it's just like when the stipulations of a contract are breached. The agreement ceases.​

 

[mkgal1]

They are modern day Judaisers (Hebrews Roots) who ignore the verses found below.

Can you address what I posted - and show me what you disagree with and why. You seemed to have zeroed in on the words "Hebrew Roots" in the link and dismissed my entire post based solely on that.

 

[mkgal1]

Another good point that article makes:

Is the Law of God (“ministry of death”) bad because it kills us? No! God’s law is “holy, just, and good” because it kills us. We want the law to kill us. Without death, we can not be “born again.” The very “Word” that kills, is to also give us life. ~ 2 Corinthians 3:7-8 – Exactly What Came to an End, the Glory or God’s Law?

Romans 7:12
Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

According to Paul, the two "laws" are the law of the Spirit of life (obedience/love for God) and the law of sin and death (disobedience/misplaced fear of something other than God).

Romans 8:2 ~ For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death​

 

[mkgal1]

They are modern day Judaisers (Hebrews Roots)

I can't find anywhere on their site where it's suggested one must convert to Judaism in order to be saved ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Here is their About Us link: About Us | 119 Ministries

If we fail to understand the Old Testament (Hebrew) - then we will certainly fail to understand the New as well. The whole Bible is written as God's story to us. We can't just read the ending without the context of the beginning.

 

[mkgal1]

(Peter could not have been talking about circumcision, because it was something he did bear.)

The issue wasn't circumcision on its own - it's that they (the Judaizers) were saying it was necessary in order to be saved.

Acts 15:

The Council at Jerusalem
15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses."

The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
​

 

[mkgal1]

I am not the one calling the Sinai Covenant "bondage", in Galatians 4.
It was Paul who did that in Galatians 4:24-31.
Do you believe what Paul said?

I am not the one calling the Old Covenant a "ministry of death engraved on stones" in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
That would also be the Apostle Paul.

Your disagreement is with Paul, instead of me.

No - my disagreement is with YOUR interpretation of what Paul wrote.

You can't have the instruction from the Torah (about murder, adultery, lust, oaths, etc) as the foundation that Jesus built on (and then made stricter/more stringent) and call it (on its own) "bondage". That would imply that Jesus' instruction was even greater bondage. Clearly Paul was meaning something else.

From the same article I linked to earlier:
Paul also teaches, the true change was and is in us and that God’s law [instruction for us] has remained the same, as promised. It is not God’s law that changed, it is our relationship to God’s law that changed.

The change, that is prophetically detailed for us in Jeremiah 31:31-33, is that the House of Judah and the House of Israel (the 2 houses of Israel) will now begin to obey God’s law because of a change in the status of their heart.

Jeremiah 31:33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares (YHWH) the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people." ~ 2 Corinthians 3:7-8 – Exactly What Came to an End, the Glory or God’s Law?​

 

[mkgal1]

They are modern day Judaisers (Hebrews Roots) who ignore the verses found below.


Act 15:10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(Peter could not have been talking about circumcision, because it was something he did bear.)


Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment—

I am not the one calling the Sinai Covenant "bondage", in Galatians 4.
It was Paul who did that in Galatians 4:24-31.
Do you believe what Paul said?

I am not the one calling the Old Covenant a "ministry of death engraved on stones" in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
That would also be the Apostle Paul.

Your disagreement is with Paul, instead of me.

.

So now you're attacking Catholicism (and promoting videos with guys saying that Catholics are NOT "biblical Christians")? Not good, BABerean. Not in my opinion. Your circle of influence is certainly narrowing.

 

[mkgal1]

They are modern day Judaisers (Hebrews Roots) who ignore the verses found below.


Act 15:10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Nope - they do not ignore that passage. They addressed all of Acts 15 here:

Acts 15 - Obedience or Legalism

 

[klutedavid]

The issue wasn't circumcision on its own - it's that they (the Judaizers) were saying it was necessary in order to be saved.

Acts 15:

The Council at Jerusalem
15 Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses."

The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”
​

If the issue was just about a physical circumcision then the apostles reply, did not answer the question that was asked.

You must explain why the apostles in answer to the question, replied with abstain from sexual immorality!

 

[ace of hearts]

Your argument here doesn't make sense to me. On one hand you're stating that the instruction in the Torah (the Old Testament first five books) is "bondage" and "the ministry of death" and gone.....and then seem to be arguing that Jesus' - even MORE stringent instruction - is freedom (but it's based on the foundation of the Law - the instruction given in the Torah).

IOW.....just to give an example: If I said to my child, "I want you to come home tonight" (that would represent the Torah's instruction - instruction you're calling bondage and ministry of death)....but then my husband tells our child, "I want you home at 10PM" (that would compare to the more stringent instruction of Jesus - which you're saying is NOT bondage and nothing to do with the original instruction given). That's just like saying Dad's instruction was nothing like the instruction I'd given. That my instruction was done away with. We BOTH want for our child to not stay out all night. We have the same desire. But you are suggesting my original instruction is bondage, but my husband is the one that gave stricter instruction.

How can that be?

You most likely have a works centered salvation. In this respect Jesus does make it harder to do. But what you seem to not understand is works has nothing to do with salvation in the Gospels or letters of Paul. I'm particularly fond of the Gospel of John and two letters of Paul - Romans and Galatians. Yes I also like and believe the rest of the Scripture.