What commandments is Jesus talking about?

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes, the law exists - but for whom? No, Christians are not under the law of sin and death engraved on stone, but rather we are under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ.

You are only UNDER THE LAW if you stand guilty before God or breaking the law. I suggest you read ROMANS 2 and ROMANS 3 with an emphasis in ROMANS 3:10-20.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'd recommend you all try to keep the commandment in spite of your attempts to prove to yourself you need not worry about them.

Kenny, do you see any difference in the Ten Commandments and the Law of Liberty?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I can't speak for her, but I can speak for myself. No I don't. Can you show them as commandments of Jesus? All I see is Jesus have a discussion about the law in Mat 22:35-40.

I did not claim the 10 commandments were Jesus's commandments, just the 2 that are always referred to as his.

But now that you bring it up, who do you think issued the 10 commandments?

 

[klutedavid]

You are only UNDER THE LAW if you stand guilty before God or breaking the law. I suggest you read ROMANS 2 and ROMANS 3 with an emphasis in ROMANS 3:10-20.

Hello LGW.

I just read the third chapter of Romans.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Here I will rewrite what Paul just said.

Romans 3:28 (rewritten)
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from Sabbath observance.

You miss the fact that a Sabbath observance is a work of the law.

 

[klutedavid]

You are only UNDER THE LAW if you stand guilty before God or breaking the law. I suggest you read ROMANS 2 and ROMANS 3 with an emphasis in ROMANS 3:10-20.

If you read Romans 2 carefully all you will find is the condemnation of the Jews. The Jews were judging others and Paul claimed that the Gentiles blasphemed God, because of how the Jews behaved.

I did not see how chapter two of Romans could possibly support your claim.

 

[klutedavid]

I'd recommend you all try to keep the commandment in spite of your attempts to prove to yourself you need not worry about them.

Your saying that we are under the law?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Sorry brother God's WORD does not teach lawlessness. God's WORD is not my word. You post your own words over God's WORD. God's WORD disagrees with you. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4

Jesus was the only One who kept the Law perfectly. He kept it, so He could be the perfect substitute for us who were and are never able to keep the Law. Therefore if we are trying to keep the Law, we are not in Christ. We are rejecting our Substitute for sin, and therefore we would have no interest in Christ at all and Christ would have no interest in us. Paul was clear that those who are trying to follow the Law bring a curse upon themselves and are on the road to hell, because they are rejecting Christ's pure righteousness for their own self-righteousness.

If you are trying outwardly to follow a set of laws and rules in order to be right with God, then you are rejecting Christ and are still in your sins. You need to repent from trying to be self-righteous and to put your full trust and faith in Jesus as your Substitute for sin, get filled with the Holy Spirit, and allow Him to work righteousness in your heart as He leads you.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Why don't you?

What would you like for me to be more specific on.

Or are some of the posters comments on several of the pro commandment posts just you challenging everything we say because you want to break the commandments, and some here won't buy into the delusion some have created for themselves allowing them to do that?

I do realize some comments here are from people who really believe they have reason to believe the commandment are no big deal, and most of the time that's what they were taught the bible says, not something they came up with on their own. But they liked it because it allowed them to break the commandment and have heaven too, so they really believe it. While other comments here are just people being contrary, and throwing nothings at the disagreement..and kind of just wasting posters time.

Some are satisfied they can break the 10 commandments, and maybe you can break some of them, I'm not sure of the penalty for each and every one, but I am sure of the penalty for willfully breaking some, and it's not something anyone here wants to deal with...I assure you.

Jesus said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments". He also said all the commandments and the law (all includes the ten) "hang" on his two commandments of loving God, and our neighbor. If you choose to not see that as all the commandment are still there, and by doing those two, we will do them all, meaning we need to do them all, that is up to you. I mean it's not like I haven't explained in enough different ways so you could see, you just choose not to.

So, you all can fight us all you like, and I do understand, if you can get others on your bandwagon, it makes it easier for you to believe what you have chosen to, so go for it. But like it or not, we will continue speaking the truth for those who are undecided and those who sincerely seek the truth, and not the 'easy way". If that makes some here uncomfortable.... that's good...there is a reason it does, and clearly...it does.

I understand sin if fun, as does Christ, so it's up to you.. a mere spec in time of fun, then Hell for some particular sins, or eternal life with the Father by just making a serious but doable effort to be obedient, and to hold out till the end.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Herein lies the problem. You are reading Romans 7:14-23 out of context. That describes those under the law - without the Spirit. They aren't saved, but under the Old Covenant. Their problem was SIN, because of not being born again of the Spirit. They could only obey the letter of the law, but their sin nature caused them to be double minded. The previous verses shows you the context, and then chapter 8 shows how to be free of the law by obey the Spirit.

Romans 7:
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sin’s Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.


Romans 8 - Spirit

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Seeing that Paul is speaking in the present tense when he wrote to the Romans, does this mean that at that stage he was still in his sins and did not have the Spirit in him?

You would think that if he was talking about a past experience he would be using the past tense. Every time he did speak about a past experience he used the past tense, not the present.

So, you have to believe that Paul was not converted and Spirit-filled when he wrote to the Romans, or that he was Spirit-filled and is describing his battle between the flesh and the Spirit. The latter is consistent with what he said in Galatians 5, that the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, describing the on-going experience of true Christian believers.

I wonder if you are taking an actual sinless perfection stance, that believers should be totally sinless in this life in order to be truly filled with the Spirit? If that is so, one could argue that you might be trying to keep the Law in your own strength, and therefore rejecting the absolute righteousness that God has given you as a gift through Christ's substitution for your sinfulness.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Seeing that Paul is speaking in the present tense when he wrote to the Romans, does this mean that at that stage he was still in his sins and did not have the Spirit in him?

You would think that if he was talking about a past experience he would be using the past tense. Every time he did speak about a past experience he used the past tense, not the present.

So, you have to believe that Paul was not converted and Spirit-filled when he wrote to the Romans, or that he was Spirit-filled and is describing his battle between the flesh and the Spirit. The latter is consistent with what he said in Galatians 5, that the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, describing the on-going experience of true Christian believers.

I wonder if you are taking an actual sinless perfection stance, that believers should be totally sinless in this life in order to be truly filled with the Spirit? If that is so, one could argue that you might be trying to keep the Law in your own strength, and therefore rejecting the absolute righteousness that God has given you as a gift through Christ's substitution for your sinfulness.

Personal present tense is a common practice in Semitic writing. You are looking at this with a western mindset, and are not recognizing the eastern style. You are not alone. This is an extremely common mistake unless you are middle eastern, or have studied Semitic writing styles (like I have - extremely useful and eye opening.)

Look at this general statement in this teaching, and yet Paul is using personal present tense. Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Paul was born under the law. Was Paul there when Moses received the law? Of course not.

Here is another of the same mistaken conclusion. At one time Paul (when Saul) hunted down Christians to kill them. He says "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst." He said, I am (personal present tense). Is Paul still killing Christians?

John is another who uses personal present tense even when speaking of a non-Christian in 1 John 1:8.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Personal present tense is a common practice in Semitic writing. You are looking at this with a western mindset, and are not recognizing the eastern style. You are not alone. This is an extremely common mistake unless you are middle eastern, or have studied Semitic writing styles (like I have - extremely useful and eye opening.)

Look at this general statement in this teaching, and yet Paul is using personal present tense. Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

Paul was born under the law. Was Paul there when Moses received the law? Of course not.

Here is another of the same mistaken conclusion. At one time Paul (when Saul) hunted down Christians to kill them. He says "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst." He said, I am (personal present tense). Is Paul still killing Christians?

Romans 7:9 speaks of Paul's past experience. But it is a bit of a twist to say that because Paul identifies himself as the worst of sinners that he is still killing Christians. He says in the present tense that there is nothing good in him, that is in his flesh. So when he talks of himself as being the worst of sinners he is speaking of the state of his flesh.

This is the great miracle that many miss - that the Holy Spirit would come and dwell in sinful flesh! This was a very new thing that started on the Day of Pentecost, because when the Holy Spirit settled on Jesus, He was entering a totally sinless Person. So, for the Holy Spirit to fill us, it shows the wonderful grace of God that His Holy Spirit would associate so closely with sinful people.

 

[Kenny'sID]

For clarification, the 2 commandments that the Messiah gave are not his, nor are they new.

He was teaching from the law of God and upholding it. Him quoting the 2 commandments is proof that he taught the law of God, because to obey those 2 is to obey the law of God.

I understand, but then we have to get into, is Jesus God, making them his commandments or does Jesus simply think just as God making them also his. So I just call them his because everyone else does.

However, I agree with you post 100%.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Good luck trying to get an answer to your questions brother. Been there and done that.

Yep, sometimes we ask just to make the point they won't answer, which make a good point in itself.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Kenny, do you see any difference in the Ten Commandments and the Law of Liberty?

Law of liberty?

 

[1stcenturylady]

Romans 7:9 speaks of Paul's past experience. But it is a bit of a twist to say that because Paul identifies himself as the worst of sinners that he is still killing Christians. He says in the present tense that there is nothing good in him, that is in his flesh. So when he talks of himself as being the worst of sinners he is speaking of the state of his flesh.

This is the great miracle that many miss - that the Holy Spirit would come and dwell in sinful flesh! This was a very new thing that started on the Day of Pentecost, because when the Holy Spirit settled on Jesus, He was entering a totally sinless Person. So, for the Holy Spirit to fill us, it shows the wonderful grace of God that His Holy Spirit would associate so closely with sinful people.

Was Paul still committing willful sin? He would have to be to be the worst sinner. What business has a non-Christian writing most of the New Testament. Read Romans 6 and tell me if Paul is writing it still as a slave to sin.

 

[Tone]

Jn 13:34

Hey, could you do us all a favor and write out the names of the books so it links...makes it convenient...thanks for loving your neighbor!

 

[1stcenturylady]

Law of liberty?

Yes, the law of liberty is what we are under. It means that we are born again of the Spirit and are free from the desire to sin.

1 Corinthians 10:29
“Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience?

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Galatians 2:4
And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage),

Galatians 5:1
[ Christian Liberty ] Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5:13
For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

James 1:25
But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:12
So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

1 Peter 2:16
as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Was Paul still committing willful sin? He would have to be to be the worst sinner. What business has a non-Christian writing most of the New Testament. Read Romans 6 and tell me if Paul is writing it still as a slave to sin.

I think that he was having the same battles between the flesh and the Spirit that we all have. When you lose a battle with the flesh and have to use 1 John 1:9 to confess your sin and get right with God, does that mean that you have committed willful sin?

Isn't willful sin a sinful lifestyle, willingly engaging in the works of the flesh as described in Galatians 5? When you fail under temptation, do you enjoy it? Or do you hate what has happened to you? When Paul says, "O wretched man that I am!" do you think that he willingly sinned, or that he lost a battle with his flesh? I hear his agonising cry: "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" It is a conflict that only faith in Christ can resolve. That is why he then says, "I thank God through Jesus Christ". He says that the law of the Spirit of life has set him free from the law of sin and death.

What this shows that Paul, and us too, have new hearts and the Spirit of life resident in sinful flesh, and we are totally dependent on Jesus Christ, our Substitute for sin to do the work of sanctification in us.

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think that he was having the same battles between the flesh and the Spirit that we all have. When you lose a battle with the flesh and have to use 1 John 1:9 to confess your sin and get right with God, does that mean that you have committed willful sin?

Isn't willful sin a sinful lifestyle, willingly engaging in the works of the flesh as described in Galatians 5? When you fail under temptation, do you enjoy it? Or do you hate what has happened to you? When Paul says, "O wretched man that I am!" do you think that he willingly sinned, or that he lost a battle with his flesh? I hear his agonising cry: "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" It is a conflict that only faith in Christ can resolve. That is why he then says, "I thank God through Jesus Christ". He says that the law of the Spirit of life has set him free from the law of sin and death.

What this shows that Paul, and us too, have new hearts and the Spirit of life resident in sinful flesh, and we are totally dependent on Jesus Christ, our Substitute for sin to do the work of sanctification in us.

Paul gives the answer to the problem of being a "wretched man."

JESUS

The battle described in Romans 7 is BEFORE Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hey, could you do us all a favor and write out the names of the books so it links...makes it convenient...thanks for loving your neighbor!

John 13:34