What caused the Universe?

[Chriliman]

It doesn't seem to matter what the topic of a thread is. No matter what we are talking about, somebody always seems to want to hijack the thread and discuss what caused the Universe.

My answer? Obviously there was a Big Bang, but before that, I don't know. Nobody knows. But the best I can tell there is some sort of driving force that "always" existed and that led to the creation of our universe, and perhaps to many other universes. (I put "always" in parenthesis, because the very concept of time is not clearly defined after we step outside the space-time constraints of the known universe.)

So have at it. This is the thread many people seem to want. If you know what caused the universe, tell us what caused it, and how you know you are right.

No matter what we imagine causing the universe, we'll have to take it on faith while we're alive in these limited mortal bodies.

This is one reason why it's pretty simple to understand why so many have faith in God because even if it wasn't God, whatever it was would require us to have faith in it and this is because of the limitations of our mortal bodies.

We're designed to place our faith in eternal concepts...

Edit: When I say 'faith in an eternal concept', I mean the acceptance of an eternal concept apart from actually experiencing the reality of that eternal concept.

For example: Many believe the big bang actually happened even though they weren't there to witness it and there is no direct evidence that proves it's true. They have faith in the big bang.

Another example: Many believe in God even though they've never seen God, but they can perceive His power and influence in reality. They have faith in God.

 

[doubtingmerle]

But those things didn't happen by themselves, something happened to make them happen...you ate beans, making the process possible from something that exists already...same with the diamonds oil and coal.

Right, and just as gas from baked beans can come spontaneously out of a colon in a big bang, one or more universes could come spontaneously from an ultimate reality beyond our spacetime in a Bigger Bang.

How do you know that our universe was not caused by some ultimate reality that existed outside the bounds of our universe?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Has someone actually claimed that God' is personally involved mentally in shaping each and every diamond? Never heard that before.
I always understood that he set the process for things to work automatically in motion.

That is my point. Based on the laws of nature, diamonds can be produced spontaneously in the earth from existing matter. God is not micromanaging every atom that goes into a diamond.

And likewise it appears that at least one universe (perhaps more) was created spontaneously out of the ultimate reality that existed outside the spacetime of our universe.

 

[quatona]

No matter what we imagine causing the universe, we'll have to take it on faith while we're alive in these limited mortal bodies.

Well, we can simply say "we don´t know" when we don´t know.

We're designed to place our faith in eternal concepts...

Speak for yourself.

Edit: When I say 'faith in an eternal concept', I mean the acceptance of an eternal concept apart from actually experiencing the reality of that eternal concept.

Which means you are redefining the word "eternal".

For example: Many believe the big bang actually happened

...which is not an "eternal concept".

 

[Radrook]

That is my point. Based on the laws of nature, diamonds can be produced spontaneously in the earth from existing matter. God is not micromanaging every atom that goes into a diamond.

And likewise it appears that at least one universe (perhaps more) was created spontaneously out of the ultimate reality that existed outside the spacetime of our universe.

That is quite possible. I guess we will never know unless we enter that realm.

 

[Kenny'sID]

How do you know that our universe was not caused by some ultimate reality that existed outside the bounds of our universe?

Are you claiming it did?

 

[victorinus]

What a scientific question!

answer it

 

[victorinus]

Why would I care if any god/s exist?

that is what I would like to know
-so-
do you want God to exist?

 

[MasonP]

that is what I would like to know
-so-
do you want God to exist?

Millions of people obviously do that's why there are so many Gods and religions in this world, can you look in a mirror and tell yourself that you have been given the one true religion and that all the other religions are wrong? they can't all be right but you know they can all be wrong.

 

[quatona]

answer it

Don´t boss me around.
The question is irrelevant for the topic at hand - unless you are positing that wanting a God to exist brings a God into existence that brought the universe into existence.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Are you claiming it did?

Yes, I think the universe was caused by some ultimate reality that existed beyond the bounds of our universe. I don't know exactly what that was. See the OP.

Do you have any reason to believe the universe was not caused by some ultimate reality that existed beyond the bounds of our universe?

 

[quatona]

Yes, I think the universe was caused by some ultimate reality that existed beyond the bounds of our universe. I don't know exactly what that was. See the OP.

Do you have any reason to believe the universe was not caused by some ultimate reality that existed beyond the bounds of our universe?

Personally, I find the wording that something was "caused by reality" questionable.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Criliiman,

If we don't know, what is wrong with saying, "I don't know"? Per the OP, I don't know. Would it better for me to make something up?

No matter what we imagine causing the universe, we'll have to take it on faith while we're alive in these limited mortal bodies.

Either that or admit we don't know.

We're designed to place our faith in eternal concepts...

Perhaps the designer forgot to include that feature in me? I seem to have been born a questioner.

Edit: When I say 'faith in an eternal concept', I mean the acceptance of an eternal concept apart from actually experiencing the reality of that eternal concept.

Ah, we all tend to have confidence in things that we don't have good evidence for. OK, yes, I do have that trait too. But when my questioning mind sees that is happening, I usually revert to, "I don't know."

For example: Many believe the big bang actually happened even though they weren't there to witness it and there is no direct evidence that proves it's true. They have faith in the big bang.

Actually we do have evidence for the big bang. Here is a quick overview. More details can be found here. Is that sufficient for you?

Another example: Many believe in God even though they've never seen God, but they can perceive His power and influence in reality. They have faith in God.

If you perceive his power and influence, then you are talking about something more than faith. You are talking about evidence. I perceive the power and influence of electrons, but I can't see them. It is indeed logical to go from perception of power and influence to inference of existence.

However, I question that the power and influence you experience initiated the Universe. Do you have any good reason to believe the power and influence that you experience initiated the universe?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Personally, I find the wording that something was "caused by reality" questionable.

I don't use that wording.

I use the wording, "I think the universe was caused by some ultimate reality that existed beyond the bounds of our universe." Can you suggest a better wording for the concept I am trying to express?

 

[quatona]

I don't use that wording.

Well, yes, you did. That there were more words doesn´t change the problem I see.

I use the wording, "I think the universe was caused by some ultimate reality that existed beyond the bounds of our universe." Can you suggest a better wording for the concept I am trying to express?

(bolding mine).
Well, the problem is that your wording doesn´t tell me anything. I don´t know which concept it is meant to express. When the question is asked "What´s X caused by...?" the answer "By reality" (ultimate or otherwise) is pretty non-responsive.
I don´t even know what the difference is between ordinary reality and ultimate reality.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Well, yes, you did. That there were more words doesn´t change the problem I see.

Oh, I see. So we are allowed to quote people and take words out of the quote (without using ellipses) and then complain about the wording? Interesting.

It that case you said, "Well more words problem". And I don't agree with your wording.

In the future, please do not cut words out of quotes, and then complain that the quotes you mutilate don't make sense when you cut the words out. Deal?

Well, the problem is that your wording doesn´t tell me anything. I don´t know which concept it is meant to express.

Your argument seems to be that I don't give any more details. Exactly! I don't know. So if I don't know, why make things up?

What is so bad about saying, "I don't know" when I don't know?

 

[quatona]

Oh, I see. So we are allowed to quote people and take words out of the quote (without using ellipses) and then complain about the wording? Interesting.

Why are you so defensive? I didn´t mean to misrepresent you (and your exact wording is there to read for everyone in your post). I meant to isolate the part that causes me problems (and the additional words don´t help solving it).
And, yes, I think this is legitimate.

It that case you said, "Well more words problem". And I don't agree with your wording.

Yeah, funny. You know, the difference is that I quoted the essential parts of your statement (subject, verb, object), and you quoted random parts that don´t even form a sentence.

In the future, please do not cut words out of quotes, and then complain that the quotes you mutilate don't make sense when you cut the words out. Deal?

I didn´t complain, I didn´t mean to pick a fight.. I told you what I have problems understanding. I could have used ellipses, and the problem would be the same. So let´s not be formalistic.

Your argument seems to be that I don't give any more details.

Not really. My problem with 'X is caused by reality": this is entirely banal, and in regards to any given definition of reality tautological. From my current perspective it pretends to say something when it actually says nothing.

Exactly! I don't know. So if I don't know, why make things up?

What is so bad about saying, "I don't know" when I don't know?

Hey, above you were so concerned with exact quotes. In the statement I was having problems with you didn´t say "I don´t know". You said "The universe is caused by [...] reality."
(And, just in case you missed it, I was the one who defended you from the request to "prove" your assertions in the OP and pointed out that you said "[...]I don´t know[... ]" there.)
Typically, when we look for a cause, we are looking for something within reality that causes something else within reality. That´s what we mean by "causality".
The fact that everything that is there is part of reality is as trivial as it gets, isn´t it?

 

[-57]

God created the universe....for the iniverse to exist..there HAS to be a God. An uncreated being that always was and is.

 

[HitchSlap]

that is what I would like to know
-so-
do you want God to exist?

I don't care. We've been doing ok without it, so I really don't see how it would make a difference if it showed up now. Do you?

 

[HitchSlap]

God created the universe....for the iniverse to exist..there HAS to be a God. An uncreated being that always was and is.

Maybe. Maybe not.