dzheremi
Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
- Aug 27, 2014
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They are absolutely not on the same path. Can Mormons here please take off the Mormon goggles and recognize that we're talking about a Christian father who departed 1400+ years before Joseph Smith was even born?
Again, it is a question of creator vs. organizer, and also of nature. In Christianity, God is God by nature and the creator of all things, not merely an organizer of preexisting matter (as He created everything, so there is nothing that exists prior to His creation of it). The only things which He did not create are therefore things which are also uncreated by nature (i.e., the Holy Spirit, as per St. John's good homily, and of course Himself and the Father of Whom He is begotten), which do not include the Mormon-specific idea of uncreated intelligences. That is quite simply foreign to Christianity.
You can say that it somehow matches or lines up with your theology, but that is pure eisegesis. Again, our father St, John the golden-mouthed has written:
Do you see the precision of his teaching? He has alluded to the creation of material things, (for concerning these Moses had taught before him,) and after bringing us to advance from thence to higher things, I mean the immaterial and the invisible, he excepts the Holy Spirit from all creation. And so Paul, inspired by the same grace, said, For by Him were all things created. Observe too here again the same exactness. For the same Spirit moved this soul also. That no one should except any created things from the works of God because of their being invisible, nor yet should confound the Comforter with them, after running through the objects of sense which are known to all, he enumerates also things in the heavens, saying, Whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; for the expression whether subjoined to each, shows to us nothing else but this, that by Him all things were made, and without Him was not anything made that was made.
But if you think that the expression by is a mark of inferiority, (as making Christ an instrument), hear him say, You, Lord, in the beginning, hast laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. He says of the Son what is said of the Father in His character of Creator; which he would not have said, unless he had deemed of Him as of a Creator, and yet not subservient to any. And if the expression by Him is here used, it is put for no other reason but to prevent any one from supposing the Son to be Unbegotten. For that in respect of the title of Creator He is nothing inferior to the Father; hear from Himself, where He says, As the Father raises up the dead and quickens them, even so the Son quickens whom He will. If now in the Old Testament it is said of the Son, You, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth, His title of Creator is plain. But if you say that the Prophet spoke this of the Father, and that Paul attributed to the Son what was said of the Father, even so the conclusion is the same. For Paul would not have decided that the same expression suited the Son, unless he had been very confident that between Father and Son there was an equality of honor; since it would have been an act of extremest rashness to refer what suited an incomparable Nature to a nature inferior to, and falling short of it. But the Son is not inferior to, nor falls short of, the Essence of the Father; and therefore Paul has not only dared to use these expressions concerning Him, but also others like them. For the expression from Whom, which you decide to belong properly to the Father alone, he uses also concerning the Son, when he says, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increases with the increase of God.
And he is not content with this only, he stops your mouths in another way also, by applying to the Father the expression by whom, which you say is a mark of inferiority. For he says, God is faithful, by whom you were called unto the fellowship of His Son and again, By His will etc.; and in another place, For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things. Neither is the expression from whom, assigned to the Son only, but also to the Spirit; for the angel said to Joseph, Fear not to take unto you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. As also the Prophet does not deem it improper to apply to the Father the expression in whom, which belongs to the Spirit, when he says, In God we shall do valiantly. [....] In short, we may often and continually find these expressions interchanged; now this would not have taken place, had not the same Essence been in every instance their subject. And that you may not imagine that the words, All things were made by Him, are in this case used concerning His miracles, (for the other Evangelists have discoursed concerning these) he farther goes on to say, He was in the world, and the world was made by Him; (but not the Spirit, for This is not of the number of created things, but of those above all creation.)
(NB: Italics at original; bold added; citations removed to improve readability)
Again, it is a question of creator vs. organizer, and also of nature. In Christianity, God is God by nature and the creator of all things, not merely an organizer of preexisting matter (as He created everything, so there is nothing that exists prior to His creation of it). The only things which He did not create are therefore things which are also uncreated by nature (i.e., the Holy Spirit, as per St. John's good homily, and of course Himself and the Father of Whom He is begotten), which do not include the Mormon-specific idea of uncreated intelligences. That is quite simply foreign to Christianity.
You can say that it somehow matches or lines up with your theology, but that is pure eisegesis. Again, our father St, John the golden-mouthed has written:
Do you see the precision of his teaching? He has alluded to the creation of material things, (for concerning these Moses had taught before him,) and after bringing us to advance from thence to higher things, I mean the immaterial and the invisible, he excepts the Holy Spirit from all creation. And so Paul, inspired by the same grace, said, For by Him were all things created. Observe too here again the same exactness. For the same Spirit moved this soul also. That no one should except any created things from the works of God because of their being invisible, nor yet should confound the Comforter with them, after running through the objects of sense which are known to all, he enumerates also things in the heavens, saying, Whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; for the expression whether subjoined to each, shows to us nothing else but this, that by Him all things were made, and without Him was not anything made that was made.
But if you think that the expression by is a mark of inferiority, (as making Christ an instrument), hear him say, You, Lord, in the beginning, hast laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. He says of the Son what is said of the Father in His character of Creator; which he would not have said, unless he had deemed of Him as of a Creator, and yet not subservient to any. And if the expression by Him is here used, it is put for no other reason but to prevent any one from supposing the Son to be Unbegotten. For that in respect of the title of Creator He is nothing inferior to the Father; hear from Himself, where He says, As the Father raises up the dead and quickens them, even so the Son quickens whom He will. If now in the Old Testament it is said of the Son, You, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth, His title of Creator is plain. But if you say that the Prophet spoke this of the Father, and that Paul attributed to the Son what was said of the Father, even so the conclusion is the same. For Paul would not have decided that the same expression suited the Son, unless he had been very confident that between Father and Son there was an equality of honor; since it would have been an act of extremest rashness to refer what suited an incomparable Nature to a nature inferior to, and falling short of it. But the Son is not inferior to, nor falls short of, the Essence of the Father; and therefore Paul has not only dared to use these expressions concerning Him, but also others like them. For the expression from Whom, which you decide to belong properly to the Father alone, he uses also concerning the Son, when he says, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increases with the increase of God.
And he is not content with this only, he stops your mouths in another way also, by applying to the Father the expression by whom, which you say is a mark of inferiority. For he says, God is faithful, by whom you were called unto the fellowship of His Son and again, By His will etc.; and in another place, For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things. Neither is the expression from whom, assigned to the Son only, but also to the Spirit; for the angel said to Joseph, Fear not to take unto you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. As also the Prophet does not deem it improper to apply to the Father the expression in whom, which belongs to the Spirit, when he says, In God we shall do valiantly. [....] In short, we may often and continually find these expressions interchanged; now this would not have taken place, had not the same Essence been in every instance their subject. And that you may not imagine that the words, All things were made by Him, are in this case used concerning His miracles, (for the other Evangelists have discoursed concerning these) he farther goes on to say, He was in the world, and the world was made by Him; (but not the Spirit, for This is not of the number of created things, but of those above all creation.)
(NB: Italics at original; bold added; citations removed to improve readability)
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