What are we to do respecting the Ten Commandments?

[KevinT]

Yet the Church keeps the first day and has since the beginning. It is the Jews who keep the seventh day.
...
I mean from the time that The Acts of the Apostles writes about. That would be not long after the death and resurrection of the Lord.

The Acts of the Apostles covers about 30 AD to 60 AD. I don't mean to be argumentative, but to say that "The Church" (all of Christ's followers) had stopped worshiping on Saturday in favor of Sunday simply can't be supported by 60 AD in any sort of scholarly fashion.

Think about James and his followers who were troubling those in Galatia (Galatians 2). Do you think they had turned away from 7th day Sabbath? What about, near the end of Acts, when Paul returns to Jerusalem and is told of the thousands of Jewish believers in Christ, who where zealous for the law. Do you really think they had adopted Sunday worship? They were just as much part of The Church as were others.

Clearly, there was tension within the nascent Christian community between those with Jewish origins (i.e. those centered in Jerusalem), and those coming into the communion from outside (the 'Gentiles'). The Jerusalem council demonstrates this. With time, there came increasing drive for the Christians to distinguish themselves from Jews (i.e non-Christ-following Jews). A large part of the Jewish population were actively rebellious towards the rule of Rome, and as Rome retaliated, Christians wished to point out that they were different. Furthermore, the group that rejected Jesus as Messiah were antagonistic towards Christians. Thus although Christianity arose from Jewish roots, the two groups became increasingly distinct. Changing from 7th day Sabbath to 1st day Worship was explicitly stated as an important way to show that they were non-Jewish. In fact, for a long time there were regulations by the early (after 100 AD) Christian leaders that the 7th day Sabbath was to be a day of fasting (i.e. not a fun time) in direct contradiction to the Jewish teaching that the Sabbath was to be a day of blessing. Thus one of several drives away from 7th day Sabbath was good old-fashioned antisemitism.

In Acts, there is mention of gatherings of believers. In my location, most churches have a Wednesday night prayer meeting. But no one would say that this act of worship constitutes the consecrated day of rest described in the 10 commandments. So likewise a record of people meeting on Sunday in Acts can not be used as proof that 7th day Sabbath had been discarded.

KT

 

[timothyu]

In Acts, there is mention of gatherings of believers. In my location, most churches have a Wednesday night prayer meeting. But no one would say that this act of worship constitutes the consecrated day of rest described in the 10 commandments. So likewise a record of people meeting on Sunday in Acts can not be used as proof that 7th day Sabbath had been discarded.

As incorporation was big in the Roman Empire, perhaps Ra had something to do with it, not to mention the concept of time and calendars

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Acts of the Apostles covers about 30 AD to 60 AD. I don't mean to be argumentative, but to say that "The Church" (all of Christ's followers) had stopped worshiping on Saturday in favor of Sunday simply can't be supported by 60 AD in any sort of scholarly fashion.

But I didn't say that, what I did say is that Christians observed the first day of the week as the day when they gathered to pray, receive the sacraments, and worship God. Many of the first Christians were also Jewish and they kept Sabbath on the seventh day as required by the Law. Gentiles probably did a bit of both depending on their circumstances, for example, if they were gentile adherents to the Jewish faith before they received Christ.

 

[KevinT]

As incorporation was big in the Roman Empire, perhaps Ra had something to do with it, not to mention the concept of time and calendars

If by Ra, you mean the Egyptian sun god, I don't know. I wouldn't think that Ra worship had spread beyond Egypt. But there was significant worship of other sun gods. And Sunday was associated with the Sun (hence it's name). So it was an easy transition for pagans coming into Christianity to extend previous patterns into their future beliefs.

This is what ChatGPT says:

Was a sun god worshiped in the roman empire?


Yes, several sun gods were worshiped in the Roman Empire, reflecting the syncretic nature of Roman religion and the incorporation of deities from various cultures. Here are some of the key sun deities associated with Roman worship:

1. Sol Invictus:
   • Meaning "Unconquered Sun," Sol Invictus was a sun god whose cult gained prominence in the late Roman Empire. The Emperor Aurelian officially promoted the worship of Sol Invictus in 274 AD, establishing December 25 as the festival of the birth of the Unconquered Sun, which some scholars suggest influenced the date of Christmas.
2. Helios:
   • Originally a Greek deity, Helios was the personification of the sun and was often depicted driving a chariot across the sky. Helios was syncretized with Roman deities and sometimes identified with Sol.
3. Apollo:
   • Although primarily known as a god of music, prophecy, and healing, Apollo was also associated with the sun, particularly in his role as Apollo Helios. His worship was widespread in the Roman Empire.
4. Mithras:
   • Mithras was a deity in the Roman mystery religion known as Mithraism, which was popular among Roman soldiers. While not a sun god per se, Mithras was closely associated with the sun and often depicted in iconography alongside Sol Invictus.

These deities reflect the complexity and diversity of religious practices in the Roman Empire, where local and imported deities were often integrated and worshiped alongside traditional Roman gods. The veneration of sun deities was part of broader religious and cultural trends that emphasized the sun's importance as a symbol of power, light, and life.

 

[KevinT]

Many of the first Christians were also Jewish and they kept Sabbath on the seventh day as required by the Law. Gentiles probably did a bit of both depending on their circumstances, for example, if they were gentile adherents to the Jewish faith before they received Christ.

Agreed.

But I didn't say that, what I did say is that Christians observed the first day of the week as the day when they gathered to pray, receive the sacraments, and worship God. (KT added emphasis)

Yes, Sunday became the special day of worship later. This is first documented by Justin Martyr after AD 100. But there is only circumstantial hints that might have been going on during the time of Acts. Here are the texts that I am aware of.

“Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, ‘Peace be with you’” (John 20:19).

They were hiding from the Jewish leaders.

“Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight… (Acts 20:7)

Paul was leaving on Monday, so they gathered on Sunday.

“On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come” (1 Corinthians 16:2).

Asking people to set aside money says nothing about it being a church day. And even if they did get together on Sunday for a prayer meeting, that wouldn't support Sunday displacing the 7th day from the 10 commandments.

Acts 2:42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43 Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. 44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. 46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

They appear to have been meeting together with each other more than just one special day -- perhaps eating together EVERY day. Mentions of gatherings are not justification for dropping 7th day Sabbath.

In summary, there is no scholarly documentation for Sunday replacing Sabbath as the God-ordained day of worship until long after the Apostles were dead and gone.

KT

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, Sunday became the special day of worship later. This is first documented by Justin Martyr after AD 100.

Well no. It is first documented in the gospels and The Acts of the Apostles.

 

[Aaron112]

There is a difference between a day of rest and a day of worship. Two different purposes. Perhaps they made a weekend of it.

(in passing) A day of rest is best thought of as holy, set apart to YHVH.
A day of work, or activity, is best honored also as holy, set apart to YHVH.
"Worship" means serving, serving YHVH, in everything, all day, every day, always.....

 

[ozso]

Churches and doctrines of man are no match for the words and will of God. Someone may brag they assembled a book but these scriptures were written long before they came along and the actions that facilitated those writings had no relation to how they were commandeered later on. There is a big difference between following the will of God and using God for one's own purposes.

Well that's the very point I was making. Doctrines of man take what is taught by God and shape it to fit that man-made doctrine. Therefore the adherents to man-made doctrine will insist they are only following the words of God. In this thread for example there are adherents to the doctrine of Ellen White criticizing others for following man-made doctrine, and insisting that they're the ones only following the words of God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Well that's the very point I was making. Doctrines of man take what is taught by God and shape it to fit that man-made doctrine. Therefore the adherents to man-made doctrine will insist they are only following the words of God. In this thread for example there are adherents to the doctrine of Ellen White criticizing others for following man-made doctrine, and insisting that they're the ones only following the words of God.

Isn't it the truth that every doctrine is formulated by people (man) and every scripture is read by people (man) and interpreted by people (man) and that being so we are left with nothing but the doctrines of man. We can say that we rely on the holy scriptures as our norm by which truth is to be arbitrated but every scripture has to be read, and its meaning decided and that is always a human activity. God (Jehovah, the Blessed Trinity) does not come down and help us with explanations of every passage, even relying on the Holy Spirit has its difficulties because everyone claims that the Spirit has led them into the truth, but their truth is not the same as their opponent's truth and that opponent also says that the Spirit led him into the truth. That is why this thread exists, Seventh Day Adventists and some others insist that keeping Saturday as Sabbath is essential if you intend to obey the ten commandments, some Protestants say that we need not bother with the ten commandments, still others say that the Sabbath commandment alone is abrogated of the ten commandments and still others will say that the matter of the Sabbath commandment is true but the specific day is ceremonial rather than moral and hence it is not necessary to keep Saturday in order to keep the Sabbath.

 

[KevinT]

Well no. It is first documented in the gospels and The Acts of the Apostles.

Can you list your supporting evidence?

KT

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Can you list your supporting evidence?

KT

I did in an earlier post, and I am sure you have seen it but are not convinced by it; ultimately it has to come down to choosing who has the right to authoritatively interpret holy scripture. If the authority to interpret lies with you as an individual, then the question is settled by your own reasoning but if you accept that the Church has the authority to interpret then what does the Church teach on this matter and for me the answer is that the Catholic Church teaches now and has always taught that we are to observe rest on Sunday and worship God on Sunday, the first day of the week, and that the seventh day Sabbath is a matter for Jews and those who follow their reasoning. Since I am not a Jew and do not accept Judaism as arbiter of truth, I do not follow the ruling of the Rabbis on this matter.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There are some passages in saint Paul's letters that leave me wondering which way to go with respect to the ten commandments, and without the guidance of the Church I am not so confident that I could avoid the individualism that seems to dominate Protestantism today. Here is one such passage:

Galatians 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law.​

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The fruit of the Spirit violates no laws.

1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

Thankfully, we are given the Holy Spirit to guide us in all Truth if we do not harden our hearts to His voice Heb 3:7-8

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

No where does it say we have to depend on a church to tell us how to interpret the bible. There is no mediator between Christ and His people. Christ alone is the Mediator of the New Covenant Heb 9:15. He paid the price once and for all Heb 9:28 and promises through our love and cooperation to help us keep His commandments- His version- not a jot or tittle can pass. John 14:15-18 Mat 5:18-30

 

[ozso]

Isn't it the truth that every doctrine is formulated by people (man) and every scripture is read by people (man) and interpreted by people (man) and that being so we are left with nothing but the doctrines of man. We can say that we rely on the holy scriptures as our norm by which truth is to be arbitrated but every scripture has to be read, and its meaning decided and that is always a human activity. God (Jehovah, the Blessed Trinity) does not come down and help us with explanations of every passage, even relying on the Holy Spirit has its difficulties because everyone claims that the Spirit has led them into the truth, but their truth is not the same as their opponent's truth and that opponent also says that the Spirit led him into the truth. That is why this thread exists, Seventh Day Adventists and some others insist that keeping Saturday as Sabbath is essential if you intend to obey the ten commandments, some Protestants say that we need not bother with the ten commandments, still others say that the Sabbath commandment alone is abrogated of the ten commandments and still others will say that the matter of the Sabbath commandment is true but the specific day is ceremonial rather than moral and hence it is not necessary to keep Saturday in order to keep the Sabbath.

I was about to reply. But then I remembered how discourteous you've been.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I was about to reply. But then I remembered how discourteous you've been.

Not quite as discourteous as your reply shown above.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Isn't it the truth that every doctrine is formulated by people (man) and every scripture is read by people (man) and interpreted by people (man) and that being so we are left with nothing but the doctrines of man.

No. The Holy Spirit of God drives the thoughts of many.

We can say that we rely on the holy scriptures as our norm by which truth is to be arbitrated but every scripture has to be read, and its meaning decided and that is always a human activity. God (Jehovah, the Blessed Trinity) does not come down and help us with explanations

Though you may know it not, the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, was sent by the Father to come down and help us with explanations, to repeat to us that which Christ the Lord says. He most certainly is here, even if you do not know it. I'll hope you will come to know Him, if you don't.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No. The Holy Spirit of God drives the thoughts of many.

You missed this part of my post:

God (Jehovah, the Blessed Trinity) does not come down and help us with explanations of every passage, even relying on the Holy Spirit has its difficulties because everyone claims that the Spirit has led them into the truth, but their truth is not the same as their opponent's truth and that opponent also says that the Spirit led him into the truth.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Truth is found in scripture. The issue is people want to edit it instead of trusting in the Lord Pro 3:5-6

Jesus is the Truth John 14:6
All His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151
His Word is Truth John 17:17

His Truth sets us free John 8:32

why its important to abide in Him

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing

Which one would be keeping His commandments (His version)

John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Following in His example

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

There is no other way.

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Truth is found in scripture. The issue is people want to edit it instead of trusting in the Lord Pro 3:5-6

Truth is found in Jesus Christ, he is, after all, the Truth.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Truth is found in Jesus Christ, he is, after all, the Truth.

Yes, we find this through His Word as quoted, not sure if just missed it in my previous post.

Jesus is the Truth John 14:6
All His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151
His Word is Truth John 17:17

Jesus is the Truth- why He says follow Me, which is found through how Jesus lived, what He taught. His Word and through His example.