What are we to do respecting the Ten Commandments?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday

1 Timothy 3:15 NIV if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

what more need be said.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The apostles say it, the Church keeps it.

The apostles were commissioned to spread the gospel to continue what Jesus taught, not change God's times and laws and countermand Jesus Mat 5:18

1 Timothy 3:15 NIV if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

what more need be said.

Nothing about a change in God's Sabbath. Why are you trying to make a biblical argument when your church says there isn't one?

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

 

[Clare73]

The apostles were commissioned to spread the gospel to continue what Jesus taught, not change God's times and laws and countermand Jesus Mat 5:18

Who countermanded the sacrifices, the cleansings, the purifications, etc. of God's laws?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Who countermanded the sacrifices, the cleansings, the purifications, etc. of God's laws?

The ordinances in the law of Moses that had to do with animal sacrifices etc were all fulfilled in Christ Eph 2:15 Heb 9:10 Col 2:14-17KJV Heb 10:1-22

God's Ten Commandments, the way God said stands forever Mat 5:18-30, Mat 19:17-19 Mat 15:3-14 John 14:15 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14-15

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Who countermanded the sacrifices, the cleansings, the purifications, etc. of God's laws?

Not countermanded. They remain in force, for all for whom they were written: those whose father is the man named first Jacob, then later Israel. They are all explicitly written this way. They do not apply to anyone else. For instance, those whom the Lord commands to call no one on earth "father".

 

[Clare73]

The ordinances in the law of Moses that had to do with animal sacrifices etc were all fulfilled in Christ Eph 2:15 Heb 9:10 Col 2:14-17KJV Heb 10:1-22

God's Ten Commandments, the way God said stands forever Mat 5:18-30, Mat 19:17-19 Mat 15:3-14 John 14:15 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14-15

And the Decalogue is fulfilled in love.

Mt 22:37-40 - the Decalogue is fulfilled by the two great commandments of love,
Ro 13:8, 10 - the Decalogue is fulfilled in love.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

Try an official Catholic Church document, like the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And the Decalogue is fulfilled in love.

He who loves has fulfilled the Decalogue (Ro 13:8, 10).

The Decalogue is fulfilled by the two great commandments (Mt 22:37-40).

Yes, when we keep them 1 John 5:3, the summary does not delete the details Rom 13:9 James 2:10-12

 

[Clare73]

Yes, when we keep them 1 John 5:3, the summary does not delete the details Rom 13:9 James 2:10-12

Loving necessarily keeps them, or it is not love.

Love is sufficient, as Jesus (Mt 22:37-40) and the apostle (Ro 13:8, 10) teach.

 

[KevinT]

"Verbal inspiration"? Who ever said anything about "verbal inspiration"? Scripture says that it was "inspired" which simply means "breathed". Does that mean that God spoke the words to the Apostles (and the OT writers) for them to write? Or did He put the thoughts directly into their minds? Or did they go into a trance in which they were taken over by the Holy Spirit and He did the writing Himself? It doesn't matter at all. What matters is that He put the Words into their minds in some way, and they wrote them down. They are God's words not the human writers, and so they are perfect, Holy, and can be trusted as if God were speaking them directly to you.

This could be a very interesting post and I would love to discuss it with you further if you want to start a new thread. But I think we shouldn't take this message thread off in a different direction than OP wanted.

KT

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Loving necessarily keeps them, or it is not love.

Love is sufficient.

Love didn't go undefined, so its not our version of loving our neighbor or loving God, its God's version.

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Its what the Ten Commandments are all about

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

[Clare73]

Love didn't go undefined, so its not our version of loving our neighbor or loving God, its God's version.

It goes without saying: there is only one true version of anything, and that is God's version.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It goes without saying: there is only one true version of anything, and that is God's version.

So there should be no debate

 

[Clare73]

So there should be no debate

Glad you agree. . .

 

[timothyu]

That's what most everyone who subscribes to doctrine established by someone in the 19th century says. Whether that be EW Bullinger's doctrine, Or Ellen White's doctrine, or Nelson's, or Scofield's etc.

You forgot to include Jesus and the Father who said it first. Would you like to start a new thread?

 

[timothyu]

Churches and doctrines of man are no match for the words and will of God. Someone may brag they assembled a book but these scriptures were written long before they came along and the actions that facilitated those writings had no relation to how they were commandeered later on. There is a big difference between following the will of God and using God for one's own purposes.

 

[KevinT]

Yet the Church keeps the first day and has since the beginning. It is the Jews who keep the seventh day. For them keeping the seventh day is part of the ancient Israelite religion from which modern Judaism arose after the destruction of Jerusalem and the deportation of the Jews from Judea in 135 AD.

There is historical evidence for Sunday worship as of about 150 yrs after Christ's death, in Justin Martyr's writings. When you say, "since the beginning," do you mean during the time of Christ's life? Immediately after His death? During the time of Paul? After the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70? Or some other time in the 1st century?

I asked ChatGPT about this:

QUESTIONS: There is debate about the origin of the day of worship being on Saturday (Sabbath) vs Sunday. What is the evidence for the origin of Sunday worship?

ANSWER: The transition from Sabbath (Saturday) worship to Sunday worship in early Christianity is a topic of considerable historical and theological interest. Several pieces of evidence and factors contributed to this shift:

1. The Resurrection of Jesus:
   • The primary theological reason for Sunday worship is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. This event is seen as foundational to Christian faith and is celebrated weekly as a "mini-Easter."
2. New Testament References:
   • While the New Testament does not explicitly command Sunday worship, there are indications of early Christian gatherings on the first day of the week. For example, Acts 20:7 mentions Christians gathering to break bread on the first day of the week, and 1 Corinthians 16:2 refers to setting aside offerings on the first day.
3. The Didache and Early Christian Writings:
   • The Didache, an early Christian document, implies a distinction between Jewish and Christian practices, though it does not specifically mention Sunday worship.
   • Ignatius of Antioch, in his letter to the Magnesians (early 2nd century), contrasts the Jewish Sabbath with the Christian "Lord's Day," which is Sunday.
4. Pliny the Younger:
   • In his letters to Emperor Trajan (c. 112 AD), Pliny describes Christians gathering on a "fixed day" before dawn to sing hymns to Christ. While not specifically mentioning Sunday, this could align with the practice of Sunday worship.
5. Justin Martyr (c. 100 – 165 AD):
   • In his "First Apology," Justin Martyr explicitly mentions that Christians gather on Sunday to commemorate the resurrection of Jesus and because it is the day God began creation.
6. Church Fathers and Councils:
   • Over time, writings from other Church Fathers and decisions from early church councils reinforced Sunday as the primary day of Christian worship. The Council of Laodicea (c. 363-364 AD) later formalized this practice by discouraging Sabbath observance in favor of Sunday.
7. Separation from Judaism:
   • As Christianity grew and spread among Gentiles, there was a conscious effort to distinguish Christian practices from Jewish customs. This included moving from the Jewish Sabbath to the "Lord's Day" (Sunday).

These factors, among others, contributed to the establishment of Sunday as the principal day of worship in Christianity, a tradition that has continued in most Christian denominations to this day.


QUESTION: So what is the earliest explicit date showing Sunday worship?

ANSWER: The earliest explicit reference to Sunday worship in Christian texts comes from Justin Martyr, a Christian apologist writing in the mid-2nd century. In his work, "First Apology," written around 155 AD, Justin describes the Christian practice of gathering on Sunday for communal worship. He states:
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead." (First Apology, Chapter 67)
This passage provides a clear and explicit description of Sunday worship and its theological significance for early Christians. Justin's account is significant because it not only confirms the practice but also provides reasoning behind the choice of Sunday, linking it to both creation and the resurrection of Jesus.


QUESTION: Is there evidence for 7th day worship in the 1st century?

ANSWER: Yes, there is evidence that early Christians, particularly those of Jewish origin, continued to observe the Sabbath on the seventh day (Saturday) during the 1st century. This practice reflected the Jewish roots of Christianity and the fact that the earliest Christians were Jewish. Here are some points that highlight this practice:

1. New Testament References:
   • The Book of Acts and the Gospels show that Jesus and his disciples observed the Sabbath. For example, Acts 13:14 and 16:13 mention Paul attending synagogue services on the Sabbath to preach to both Jews and God-fearing Gentiles.
2. Jewish-Christian Communities:
   • Jewish Christians, such as those in Jerusalem and other parts of Judea, would have naturally continued to observe the Sabbath as part of their cultural and religious heritage.
3. The Epistle to the Hebrews:
   • While not explicitly mentioning Sabbath observance, the letter to the Hebrews (written in the latter half of the 1st century) discusses the concept of "rest" in a spiritual sense, which may have resonated with Sabbath themes.
4. Historical Context:
   • The early church was diverse, comprising both Jewish and Gentile believers. Jewish Christians likely maintained Sabbath observance alongside their new Christian practices.
5. Early Church Writings:
   • While most explicit references to Sabbath observance in Christian writings appear in texts from the 2nd century and later, the lack of early explicit prohibitions against Sabbath-keeping suggests it was still practiced by some groups.

Overall, while there is evidence of 7th-day Sabbath observance among early Christians, especially those of Jewish origin, the transition to Sunday worship began to take shape as Christianity spread among Gentiles and sought to distinguish itself from Judaism.

KT

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There is historical evidence for Sunday worship as of about 150 yrs after Christ's death, in Justin Martyr's writings. When you say, "since the beginning," do you mean during the time of Christ's life? Immediately after His death? During the time of Paul? After the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70? Or some other time in the 1st century?

I mean from the time that The Acts of the Apostles writes about. That would be not long after the death and resurrection of the Lord.

 

[timothyu]

There is a difference between a day of rest and a day of worship. Two different purposes. Perhaps they made a weekend of it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We should worship God everyday- Jesus related obedience to His commandments as worship Mat 15:3-14

Also as Sabbath keeping

Isa 66:23 And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.