What are we to do respecting the Ten Commandments?

[timothyu]

It is not the moral code, or the commandments, or the theocratic structure in the OT that points to salvation, but the person of Jesus Christ.

They are one and the same. All are the will of God. not man.

 

[Doug Brents]

Make up your mind, do you say that the commandments do not matter at all and hence that the command "do not kill" is irrelevant, as well as "worship no other God, have no idols" is irrelevant too? The ten commandments cover so much of basic human morality and reflect so much of the teaching of Christ too, as a matter of fact it is Jesus Christ who gave the ten commandments and surely Jesus didn't give the commandments only to declare them an irrelevance later.

Is the command to not murder (the command in Exodus and Deut. are not to not kill, but to not murder (big difference)) in the New Covenant? If it is (and it is) then it very much matters. But if it is not, then it does not matter in the least. The same can be said of worshiping God, keeping the sabbath, coveting, worshiping idols, etc. If they are in the NT, then we must follow them. If they are not in the NT, then they were only part of the OT, and so are no longer of any meaning to us today.

Yes, Jesus (who is God) gave the ten commandments. He also gave the commandment to be circumcised, and the commandment not to eat pork and shrimp, and the commandment that only the Levites could be priests. But He changed all of those commands. We are not forbidden to eat pork and shrimp under the NT. We are not commanded to be circumcised under the NT. We are not limited to only the Levitical priesthood under the NT. None of the OT, none of it, has any commandment value to us under the NT unless it was restated by Jesus or one of the Apostles in the NT.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, the content of the ten commandments do not matter today at all. They are part of the OC, and the OC has been completely removed and invalidated (Gal 4:21-5:6).

You think that Galatians 4:21 to 5:6 teaches Christians to toss away the Old Testament? Really?

Galatians 4:21-5:6 NASB (21) Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? (22) For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. (23) But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. (24) This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. (25) Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. (26) But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. (27) For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." (28) And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. (29) But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. (30) But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." (31) So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman. (5:1) It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. (2) Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. (3) And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. (4) You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (5) For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. (6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.​

What does saint Paul say about living a Christian life? Romans chapter eight will help.

Romans 8:1-39 NASB Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. (3) For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, (4) so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (5) For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. (6) For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, (7) because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, (8) and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (10) If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (11) But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (12) So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- (13) for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. (14) For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. (15) For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" (16) The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, (17) and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. (18) For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. (19) For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. (20) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope (21) that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. (23) And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (24) For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? (25) But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. (26) In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; (27) and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (28) And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. (29) For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; (30) and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (31) What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? (32) He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? (33) Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; (34) who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. (35) Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." (37) But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. (38) For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

In another post in this thread, I suggested that when God's finger wrote the Ten Commandments on the tablets of stone his finger was writing "freedom" to all who take the commandments to heart and live in accord with them. This is not to suggest that "by works of the law" anybody will be saved, for such is not true, rather it is to suggest that human freedom means being set free from sin, and it is from such laws as the ten commandments that Christians come to understand what sin is and what sin is not.

 

[Doug Brents]

They are one and the same. All are the will of God. not man.

No, they are not the same. God's will changed from the OT to the NT. If it had not changed, then Jesus could not be our High Priest, because He came from the tribe of Judah, not the tribe of Levi, and under the OT, only the Levites could be priests.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Is the command to not murder ... in the New Covenant?

It is by way of quoting the Old Testament.

(Mark 10:19 NASB) "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"​

​

(Luke 18:20 NASB) "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Who on earth is this "saint" Paul person.

Now your post is being disingenuous, isn't it? You know perfectly well who saint Paul is. Stop straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

 

[Doug Brents]

You think that Galatians 4:21 to 5:6 teaches Christians to toss away the Old Testament? Really?

Galatians 4:21-5:6 NASB (21) Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? (22) For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. (23) But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. (24) This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. (25) Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. (26) But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. (27) For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." (28) And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. (29) But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. (30) But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." (31) So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman. (5:1) It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. (2) Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. (3) And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. (4) You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (5) For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. (6) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.​

Why is it that you jump from "the OT is no longer binding on the NT Christ follower" to "toss away the OT"? I have never said, "toss it away". I said it is not binding as law on the NT Christ follower, and that is exactly what God through Paul is saying here.

What does saint Paul say about living a Christian life?

Again, who is this bogus "saint" Paul person? Lose the "saint" nonsense. Paul was no more a saint than I am, and I am a saint, and priest, of the Most High God.
But Paul certainly doesn't say that we must keep the Old Covenant. He says we have been set free from the Old Covenant.

 

[Doug Brents]

It is by way of quoting the Old Testament.

(Mark 10:19 NASB) "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"​

​

(Luke 18:20 NASB) "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"​

It is also there where Jesus says, you have heard it said, do not murder.... And it is there in several other places without reference to the OT. But the point is that while many of the places in the NT do reference the OT commands, not a single one of the commands in the NT reference the command to keep the sabbath.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, Jesus (who is God) gave the ten commandments. He also gave the commandment to be circumcised, and the commandment not to eat pork and shrimp, and the commandment that only the Levites could be priests. But He changed all of those commands. We are not forbidden to eat pork and shrimp under the NT. We are not commanded to be circumcised under the NT. We are not limited to only the Levitical priesthood under the NT. None of the OT, none of it, has any commandment value to us under the NT unless it was restated by Jesus or one of the Apostles in the NT.

Now you're getting near the mark, closer to treating what Saint Paul says seriously. The Law of Moses is the system of laws kept outside of the Ark of the Covenant, in a "pocket", while the tablets of the Law, the Ten Commandments, was kept inside of the ark of the covenant. What saint Paul explicitly sets aside is the Law that requires sacrifices and offerings and the law that governs the religious practises of the Old Covenant. Saint Paul doesn't seek to remove the ten commandments as a tutor leading to Christ, teaching the world what sin is. He intends to remove the Law of Moses that prescribes the means by which sins are forgiven, that is to say, through sacrifices, it is these laws that are abrogated because now that the Lord, Jesus Christ, has been sacrificed as our Passover lamb no more sacrifices can be made and none will be accepted.

 

[Doug Brents]

Now your post is being disingenuous, isn't it? You know perfectly well who saint Paul is. Stop straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

I know who Paul is. But I don't know why you would put "saint" in front of his name. He is no more a saint than I am (and I am a saint), so why do you feel the need to designate him with a moniker that is found nowhere in Scripture. We are commanded not to give titles, or monikers, or hierarchies within the Church. This is not straining at gnats, it is looking at core motivations and foundational principles of doctrine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I know who Paul is. But I don't know why you would put "saint" in front of his name.

He is called Saint Paul to distinguish him from every other Paul and to give due recognition to him as chosen by God to be an apostle of the gospel to the gentiles, as the scriptures say. So away with the pretence that "saint Paul" is not known to you. No more of this gamesmanship. I will call him saint Paul; you may call him whatever you please.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

God's will changed from the OT to the NT.

Hebrews 13:7-9 NASB Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. (8) Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (9) Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.

 

[timothyu]

If it had not changed, then Jesus could not be our High Priest,

That was not a change but an addition.. the Kingdom

 

[KevinT]

The ten commandments were written by the finger (or hand) of God and when I think about it God's finger wrote "freedom" when he wrote the commandments.

I like this. Jesus came to free is from the bondage of sin.

John 8:34 -- Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

Best wishes,
KT

 

[KevinT]

All 10 are a subset of the Law. And yet, 9 of them can stand apart from the Law as moral imperatives under any inspired system of government.

However, the Sabbath Law makes no sense outside of the Law of Moses because it is directly related to the message of the Law, which is that Man's Works do not bring God's final rest. Man's Works, being flawed, must give a show of a need for rest, to make room for Christ's ultimate atonement.

I'm not following you here. The Sabbath was instituted BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned and fell under the curse. If they had never sinned, they still would have benefited from the blessings the Sabbath has built into it. And after Jesus returns, the Sabbath will be celebrated. The Sabbath is about REMEMBERING God and His creation. It is not about self-righteous works.

KT

 

[KevinT]

The Sabbath commandment is about rest for everyone, servant, master are alike, all must have a day of rest, and this is a moral imperative.

Deuteronomy 5: (12) 'Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. (13) 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, (14) but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. (15) 'You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day.​

@Xeno.of.athens , I am confused. I keep the 7th day as a Sabbath day of rest. I am thrilled that you appear to be supporting this too. But I thought that you were Catholic, and that Catholics worship on the 1st day, citing that the Church had authority to make that change. Can you help me understand?

Best wishes,

KT

 

[KevinT]

It is also there where Jesus says, you have heard it said, do not murder.... And it is there in several other places without reference to the OT. But the point is that while many of the places in the NT do reference the OT commands, not a single one of the commands in the NT reference the command to keep the sabbath.

How about Jesus declaring Himself to be Lord of the Sabbath? wikipedia

KT

 

[Palmfever]

Why did you select the third commandment (sabbath keeping) as the only one to comment upon?

I believe the 10 commandments are excellent rules by which to govern our lives. I also believe all who truly believe will lead a life that honors those commands.
Concerning the Sabbath Christ says this.
Mark 2
Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees said to Him, “Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?”

25 But He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: 26 how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?”

27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath.”

Paul inspired by God Spirit wrote this;
Romans 5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

 

[Palmfever]

How about Jesus declaring Himself to be Lord of the Sabbath? wikipedia

KT

Since Christ created Everything then took a break, He is the Lord of everything. He instituted the Sabbath so men would rest. This is why He said, 'The Sabbath was made for men, not men for the Sabbath.'

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

@Xeno.of.athens , I am confused. I keep the 7th day as a Sabbath day of rest. I am thrilled that you appear to be supporting this too. But I thought that you were Catholic, and that Catholics worship on the 1st day, citing that the Church had authority to make that change. Can you help me understand?

Best wishes,

KT

What I am supporting is the concept of a day (or more) of rest for servants as well as masters. I am not advocating for seventh day observance nor for first day observance. Both days will fulfil the day of rest commanded in the commandment. Catholic teaching on the matter is covered at some length in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Catechism of the Council of Trent.

Following are some sections from the Catechism of the Council of Trent.

CCT 2153 THE THIRD COMMANDMENT: "Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy works; but on the seventh day is the sabbath of the lord thy god; thou shalt do no work on it, neither thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the lord blessed the seventh day and sanctified it."

CCT 2158 The importance of its observance for the faithful may be inferred from the consideration that those who carefully comply with it are more easily induced to keep all the other Commandments. For among the other works which are necessary on holydays, the faithful are bound to assemble in the church to hear the Word of God. When they have thus learned the divine justifications, they will be disposed to observe, with their whole heart, the law of the Lord. Hence the sanctification and observance of the Sabbath is very often commanded in Scripture, as may be seen in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and in the prophecies of Isaias, Jeremias, and Ezechiel, all of which contain this precept on the observance of the Sabbath.

CCT 2163 This Commandment about the observance of the Sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfilment, is not fixed and unalterable, but susceptible of change, and belongs not to the moral, but the ceremonial law. Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other. And in fact the Sabbath was kept holy only from the time of the liberation of the people of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh. The observance of the Sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ. Having been, as it were, images which foreshadowed the light and the truth, these ceremonies were to disappear at the coming of that light and truth, which is Jesus Christ. Hence St. Paul, in his Epistle to the Galatians, when reproving the observers of the Mosaic rites, says: You observe days and months and times and years; I am afraid of you lest perhaps I have laboured in vain amongst you. And he writes to the same effect to the Colossians.

CCT 2179 We now come to the meaning of the word sabbath. Sabbath is a Hebrew word which signifies cessation. To keep the Sabbath, therefore, means to cease from labour and to rest. In this sense the seventh day was called the Sabbath, because God, having finished the creation of the world, rested on that day from all the work which He had done. Thus, it is called by the Lord in Exodus.

CCT 2180 Later on, not only the seventh day, but, in honour of that day, the entire week was called by the same name; and in this meaning of the word, the Pharisee says in St. Luke: I fast twice in a sabbath. So much will suffice with regard to the signification of the word sabbath.

CCT 2182 In the Scriptures keeping holy the Sabbath means a cessation from bodily labour and from business, as is clear from the following words of the Commandment: Thou shalt do no work on it. But this is not all that it means; otherwise, it would have been sufficient to say in Deuteronomy, Observe the day of the sabbath; but it is added, and sanctify it; and these additional words prove that the Sabbath is a day sacred to religion, set apart for works of piety and devotion.

CCT 2183 We sanctify the Sabbath fully and perfectly, therefore, when we offer to God works of piety and religion. This is evidently the Sabbath, which Isaias calls delightful; for festivals are, as it were, the delight of God and of pious men. And if to this religious and holy observance of the Sabbath we add works of mercy, the rewards promised us in the same chapter are numerous and most important.

CCT 2184 The true and proper meaning, therefore, of this Commandment tends to this, that we take special care to set apart some fixed time, when, disengaged from bodily labour and worldly affairs, we may devote our whole being, soul and body, to the religious veneration of God.

CCT 2186 The second part of the precept declares that the seventh day was consecrated by God to His worship; for it is written: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy works; but on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God. From these words we learn that the Sabbath is consecrated to the Lord, that we are required on that day to render Him the duties of religion, and to know that the seventh day is a sign of the Lord's rest.

CCT 2188 This particular day was fixed for the worship of God, because it would not have been well to leave to a rude people the choice of a time of worship, lest, perhaps, they might have imitated the festivals of the Egyptians.

CCT 2189 The last day of the week was, therefore, chosen for the worship of God, and in this there is much that is symbolic. Hence in Exodus,' and in Ezechiel the Lord calls it a sign: See that you keep my sabbath because it is a sign between me and you in your generation, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctify you.

There is more to be said, and the CCC offers more still. But this is sufficient for now.