What are we to do respecting the Ten Commandments?

[Xeno.of.athens]

Are you?

My works do not save me, I am already saved.

My works of obedience lead to sanctification (Ro 6:16, 19).

yes.

Have you read Romans 8?

When asked what to do about the ten commandments do you immediately think that you need not obey them?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Sure it is. And that is why, in my very first post, I said that all of the "ten commandments" are irrelevant to us today. The "ten commandments" as a group are part of the Old Covenant, and so are no longer binding on us today. But nine of the ten have been restated in the New Covenant as commands that the New Testament Christ follower must keep.
1) Do not worship any other gods (1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Timothy 2:5)
2) Do not make idols (1 John 5:21)
3) Do not misuse the name of the Lord (1 Timothy 6:1)
4) Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. (There are many references to the Sabbath day in the New Testament, including the assumption that Jews under the law in the time of Christ would be observing the Sabbath. But there is no direct or indirect command for believers in the church age to observe the Sabbath as a day of rest or of worship. In fact, Colossians 2:16 releases the believer from the Sabbath rule. Jesus, the Lord of the Sabbath, has become for us our Sabbath rest, according to Hebrews 4:1–11.)
5) Honor your father and your mother (Ephesians 6:1–2)
6) Do not murder (Romans 13:9; 1 Peter 4:15)
7) Do not commit adultery (1 Corinthians 6:9–10)
8) Do not steal (Ephesians 4:28)
9) Do not give false testimony (Revelation 21:8)
10) Do not covet (Colossians 3:5)

I see what you are getting at, but someone who owns a business, or who works for the government, who performs tasks for which I then pay them is not a "servant" except possibly in the loosest and most broad terms. A servant is, "a person who performs duties for others, especially a person employed in a house on domestic duties or as a personal attendant."

The New Covenant sabbath is not about rest from physical labor, but about spiritual rest. All of the NC is about the spiritual instead of the physical.

Well, I see that you did the renumbering thing with the ten commandments. I don't know why people do that. Guess they have a religious attachment to one specific numbering or something.

Anyway, if the ten commandments are an irrelevance as you suggest them to be then why is all of the law of the land rooted in them, no murdering, no stealing, not lying in court, and so on. And why is so much of basic human morality reflective of them, honour your parents, do not commit adultery, do not desire what is not yours. Seems to me that the ten commandments are very relevant.

 

[timothyu]

People seem to not understand that beneath moral standing, which the 10 C's are associated with, there is the knowledge that our self serving ways are what is behind every evil in earth. This is why God said, His will first, not ours. The morality of the 10 C's are just as relevant today.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There's not really much to guess at, the threads almost invariably turn into Catholicism vs other expressions of Christian faith.

That may be because the interlocutors who reply always turn the thread into a contest about their theology over and above Catholicism. One cannot blame me for people in this thread honing in on the Sabbat commandment as if it were the be all and end all of commandments and similarly one cannot blame me for people taking a question such as the one in this thread and attempting to spin it as a Catholic Vs everybody else debate starter.

 

[Doug Brents]

Anyway, if the ten commandments are an irrelevance as you suggest them to be then why is all of the law of the land rooted in them, no murdering, no stealing, not lying in court, and so on. And why is so much of basic human morality reflective of them, honour your parents, do not commit adultery, do not desire what is not yours. Seems to me that the ten commandments are very relevant.

As I noted, nine of the ten are restated in the New Covenant, and it is the New Covenant that we are bound to keep. So yes, the moral code of not committing murder (Romans 13:9; 1 Peter 4:15), and not lying in court (or any other time) (Revelation 21:8), etc. are from the New Covenant, not necessarily the Old.

As for the "basic human morality", you are talking about the American sense of morality which is based upon the New Covenant Scriptures (notice that in the US there is no law that we keep Saturday as a day of rest, it is typically a day to go have fun with the family rather than working). But in most of the rest of the world, the "basic human morality" of which you speak is unknown. Bribery, extortion, dishonest, dishonor, thievery, etc. are the way of life in many countries around the world.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As I noted, nine of the ten are restated in the New Covenant, and it is the New Covenant that we are bound to keep. So yes, the moral code of not committing murder (Romans 13:9; 1 Peter 4:15), and not lying in court (or any other time) (Revelation 21:8), etc. are from the New Covenant, not necessarily the Old.

As for the "basic human morality", you are talking about the American sense of morality which is based upon the New Covenant Scriptures (notice that in the US there is no law that we keep Saturday as a day of rest, it is typically a day to go have fun with the family rather than working). But in most of the rest of the world, the "basic human morality" of which you speak is unknown. Bribery, extortion, dishonest, dishonor, thievery, etc. are the way of life in many countries around the world.

Do you think that the whole of the Old Testament is irrelevant unless it is restated in the New Testament? Is that how theology is intended to work? Just throw away the Old Testament and check the New for everything that matters ...

I do not agree with that approach, is it what you expect others to agree with?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As for the "basic human morality", you are talking about the American sense of morality which is based upon the New Covenant Scriptures (notice that in the US there is no law that we keep Saturday as a day of rest, it is typically a day to go have fun with the family rather than working). But in most of the rest of the world, the "basic human morality" of which you speak is unknown. Bribery, extortion, dishonest, dishonor, thievery, etc. are the way of life in many countries around the world.

I am not a USA resident so "American" centric thinking is not behind my questions because I am not from the USA.

 

[timothyu]

The old is the foundation of the new. Even churches and synagogues were physically built on old foundations. That religion should grow likewise should be no surprise. The Kingdom was contrary to the ways of man, not to the OT. It was a result of it.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, I see that you did the renumbering thing with the ten commandments. I don't know why people do that. Guess they have a religious attachment to one specific numbering or something.

As for the numbering of the commandments, that is not my doing. I borrowed that listing, and it came with the numbering. I know that there are no numbers to the commandments in the Scriptures (other than the fact that God says there are ten), but many people have taken to numbering them in a certain way, and it helps to do so, as do the chapter and verse headings, for ease of reference and to not have misunderstanding.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The old is the foundation of the new. Even churches and synagogues were physically built on old foundations. That religion should grow likewise should be no surprise.

Agreed. And in the New Testament when "the scriptures" are mentioned it is a reference to the Old Testament.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As for the numbering of the commandments, that is not my doing. I borrowed that listing, and it came with the numbering. I know that there are no numbers to the commandments in the Scriptures (other than the fact that God says there are ten), but many people have taken to numbering them in a certain way, and it helps to do so, as do the chapter and verse headings, for ease of reference and to not have misunderstanding.

The Original post presents the commandments with a numbering that is quite ancient. But the numbers do not matter, do they? It is the contents that counts.

 

[timothyu]

It is the contents that counts.

Agreed. It's kinda like when people put Jesus ahead of His message.

 

[Doug Brents]

Do you think that the whole of the Old Testament is irrelevant unless it is restated in the New Testament?

When it comes to laws we must follow in the NT age? Yes.

Is that how theology is intended to work? Just throw away the Old Testament and check the New for everything that matters ...

I do not agree with that approach, is it what you expect others to agree with?

No. The OT has much that is valid and "beneficial for teaching, for rebuking, for correction, for training in righteousness;". But all of the OT is invalidated as the law by which we live, because God has removed the Old Covenant and established a New Covenant with mankind.

 

[timothyu]

When it comes to laws we must follow in the NT age? Yes.

Here are the 10 summed up in Jesus' 2.

Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Doug Brents]

The Original post presents the commandments with a numbering that is quite ancient. But the numbers do not matter, do they? It is the contents that counts.

No, the content of the ten commandments do not matter today at all. They are part of the OC, and the OC has been completely removed and invalidated (Gal 4:21-5:6).

 

[Doug Brents]

Here are the 10 summed up in Jesus' 2.

Matthew 22:
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Sure, and where in Matt 22 does Jesus command that we keep the sabbath? Nowhere. Nor will you find a command to keep the sabbath anywhere else in the NT. All of the other commands are restated in the NT, so the following of those commands is still valid today. But the OT commandment to keep the sabbath is not restated in the NT, so it is not valid to us today.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

When it comes to laws we must follow in the NT age? Yes.

No. The OT has much that is valid and "beneficial for teaching, for rebuking, for correction, for training in righteousness;". But all of the OT is invalidated as the law by which we live, because God has removed the Old Covenant and established a New Covenant with mankind.

It is good that you've quoted from saint Paul's second letter to Timothy where we read:

2 Timothy 3:10-17 NASB Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, (11) persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! (12) Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. (13) But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. (14) You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, (15) and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; (17) so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.​

Saint Paul teaches that the Old Testament (sacred writings) give wisdom that leads to salvation, it is salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. That suggests that throwing away the Old Testament would be a very bad move indeed.

 

[timothyu]

Sure, and where in Matt 22 does Jesus command that we keep the sabbath? Nowhere.

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Putting His will first. He didn't change His mind.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, the content of the ten commandments do not matter today at all. They are part of the OC, and the OC has been completely removed and invalidated (Gal 4:21-5:6).

Make up your mind, do you say that the commandments do not matter at all and hence that the command "do not kill" is irrelevant, as well as "worship no other God, have no idols" is irrelevant too? The ten commandments cover so much of basic human morality and reflect so much of the teaching of Christ too, as a matter of fact it is Jesus Christ who gave the ten commandments and surely Jesus didn't give the commandments only to declare them an irrelevance later.

 

[Doug Brents]

It is good that you've quoted from saint Paul's second letter to Timothy where we read:

2 Timothy 3:10-17 NASB Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance, (11) persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me! (12) Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. (13) But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. (14) You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, (15) and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; (17) so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.​

Saint Paul teaches that the Old Testament (sacred writings) give wisdom that leads to salvation, it is salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. That suggests that throwing away the Old Testament would be a very bad move indeed.

Who on earth is this "saint" Paul person. Every person who is in Christ is a saint. So why would you feel the need to give him a title or moniker that Scripture gives to ALL who are in Christ?

All of the OT points to Jesus as the fulfillment of the many predictions and prophecies found there. It is not the moral code, or the commandments, or the theocratic structure in the OT that points to salvation, but the person of Jesus Christ. It is not the OT Scriptures that point to salvation, but the wisdom we find there that brings us to Christ who is the salvation of the world.