What ARE The Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven anyhow?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jack, if this is true, then who are "you" when "you" sin?

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

??

Not only commits, but continues to keep sinning. All of this appears to be present/continuing tense. [still learning the greek though LOL]

Translation taken from Tex-Rec [KJV] and I prefer writing the english equivalent to EACH greek word, thereby not adding-to or taking-away from it.

[Tex-Rec] 1 John 3:8 The one-doing the sin out of the devil is, that from beginning the devil is sinning. Into this was manifested the Son of the God, that he should be loosing the works of the devil

{TEX-REC} 1 John 3:8 o <3588> {THE} poiwn <4160> (5723) {ONE DOING} thn <3588> {THE} amartian <266> {SIN,} ek <1537> {OUT} tou <3588> {OF THE} diabolou <1228> {DEVIL} estin <2076> (5748) {IS;} oti <3754> {THAT} ap <575> {FROM} archV <746> {BEGINNING} o <3588> {THE} diaboloV <1228> {DEVIL} amartanei <264> (5719) {IS SINNING}. eiV <1519> {INTO} touto <5124> {THIS} efanerwqh <5319> (5681) {WAS MANIFESTED} o <3588> {THE} uioV <5207> {SON} tou <3588> {OF THE} qeou <2316> {GOD,} ina <2443> {THAT} lush <3089> (5661) {HE SHOULD BE LOOSING} ta <3588> {THE} erga <2041> {WORKS} tou <3588> {OF THE} diabolou <1228> {DEVIL.}

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Jack, if this is true, then who are "you" when "you" sin?

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

??

The devil is the father of sin, yes.

But are you saying that you (squint) do not sin?

 

[Fireinfolding]

My question was and will remain, HOW is it that we are to RID ourselves of every sin and burden? HOW is it that we are to DEPART from iniquity? And this in the LIGHT of the disclosure that we CANNOT SAY we have NO SIN?

Squint its because SIN (in us) BUT SIN will NOT have DOMINION over us. We cannot say WE are without SIN (because its IN US) in THE FLESH theres no good thing IN THE FLESH. The presence of Sin (which ENTERED IN) is IN US. Its IN our FLESH (after a carnal truth). The division is between the flesh and the Spirit. We are translated from walking after the flesh (by the circumcision of Christ) to walking in the Spirit. We are not to OBEY IT we are to PUT IT OFF and its by the GRACE of God is THAT which teaches us TO DENY the lusts thereof.

Is it possible? I believe it is and I dont see the contradiction. I can't SAY I am without sin (FACT) but that doesnt mean SIN has to DOMINATE our lives because the ~all sufficient~ and EFFECTUAL grace of God should be teaching us TO DENY IT. Its POWER comes by THE LAW, it SPRINGS TO LIFE (in us) and SIN ABOUNDS (not abates) and becomes utterly sinful. This wrought by the commandment. WITHOUT THE LAW SIN IS DEAD.

Is it IN US? Absolutely, its TO BE DEAD simply because WE DIED TO THE LAW. Two principals US in the flesh (after a spiritual truth) and the law (trying to be perfected) by that which makes NOTHING PERFECT but that which EMPOWERS SIN. The MOTIONS OF IT (Sin) are BY THE LAW.

If through the Spirit we MORTIFY the deeds of the body (this body of death) we shall live. Its CHRIST who comes WITHOUT SIN, and He said, IF I by THE FINGER OF GOD CAST OUT DEVILS (there ya go Squint ) the KINGDOM OF GOD of God (HIS POWER) has COME UNTO YOU. He is the righteousness of God.

My question was and will remain, HOW is it that we are to RID ourselves of every sin and burden? HOW is it that we are to DEPART from iniquity? And this in the LIGHT of the disclosure that we CANNOT SAY we have NO SIN?

Again, its HIM Squint. The fear of the Lord is to HATE EVIL (thats one of the things it IS) That was what Paul battled (within himself) saying I do the EVIL I HATE, because of that (to hate it) HE was no longer doing it BUT SIN in Him. It was not DEAD under the law but empowered by it.

It was the Spirit of life in Christ that set him free from the law of SIN and death (that exists IN US) our FLESH.

Uh, not really. See prior question.

Yes really In the context of my post where you adress the "SAYING" part of having no sin as Job also speaks the very same of that same "SAYING" (given HE is declared by God three times that he is perfect) James is consistent within that patern concerning the perfect man offends not IN WORD. This is consistent with God declaring Job did not sin with HIS LIPS and spake what was right about God (not as His friends did).

Do you also know that only two in scripture have the power of death? The TONGUE and THE DEVIL are the two shown that do. Prov 18:21 and Heb 2:14

You're getting warmer...

Good thing I warm up my own studying and approval before God not men.

I'm looking for your form of division and separation from SIN and INIQUITY and BURDENS in these matters.

I havent a clue to what your looking for Squint

Though AGAIN the TONGUE is called a WORLD of INIQUITY, INIQUITY of LIPS is shown, there a MYSTERY OF INQUITY and HE LETETH IT

Job 41:4 Canst thou ~draw out~ leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

The mystery of Iniquity also IS LET

2Thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The TONGUE is a WORLD of Iniquity

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity



My approach comes would naturally come in at a different angle. I dont want to play pages worth of twister.

I have no issues whatsoever in saying that sin dwells in me, which same in cause or in action is OF THE DEVIL. See the DIVISION?

Neither do I, by NATURE children of wrath, interesting the law WORKETH WRATH.

I divide it between FLESH and SPIRIT they are two different things. The lusts of your father ye will do, I get that.

Most won't because of that same presence in our flesh that does not want to be exposed as a separate entity from Gods offspring, all mankind. The presence of evil is very much entwined into our hearts and minds making us think it's ONLY US. I doubt Peter was much aware that as he spoke it was not him, but SATAN.

When I said I did not understand your response, it was how it related to my response and a better explanation of what you were talking about was all that was needed Squint.

Well, it started about Peter and the keys to the kingdom from the Matt. 16 stretch.

Thanks, I hadnt been fully following to be honest with ya.

I dispute with no scripture quote. Reflections from "others" are what interest me.

Thats what I was giving, I didnt see a contradition in the "presence" of sin (not being able to say we are "without it") and Sin having its dominion in our lives. To me, it doesnt contradict anything in my eyes as its divided between the flesh (where its empowered) and the Spirit (where it has no dominion). So although we can be in "the flesh" (after a carnal truth) after a spiritual truth we are not if so be the Spirit of Christ be in us and we are led by the Spirit. I dont "blame" the flesh, it is what it is "flesh" and "Spirit is spirit".

I wasnt expecting to wrestle with ya, I made one observation, posting two verses and thats it.

I wrote,

It means dont do it, Sin will not have dominion over you because your not under the law (the power of sin) but grace, its not a license to sin. Its the grace of God teaches us TO DENY worldly and ungodly lusts. Whereas the law EMPOWERED IT.

Generally agreed, but good performances does not rid us of the presence of indwelling sin eh?

Who said it did Squint? If we SAY we are without sin we deceive ourselves remember?

Nope. Grace is entirely sufficient for all mankind apart from works.

Kool, just making sure.

So the above question remains...

The question remains for you Squint, tell ya what, I'll let you work out what you believe remains because its not a question that remains for me. I can fully accept both without it presenting a problem (in my thinking).

I believe acknowledgement of the facts is a crucial component to being honest, which God is certainly not against. But of course there is a very fine line and a clean cut, as God in Christ did not and does not count sins against mankind.

I certainly dont think otherwise.

Where then do we go for judgment in these matters? We certainly cannot ignore sin or sinful actions by saying so what, it's not counted can we?

You confess them and you forgive them. Who would be saying "so what"?

I wrote,

Job knew if his own lips declared what God did (of Him) it would ~prove him~ perverse. This appears very consistent with the apostles when it comes to saying "we are without sin" (self deceptive).

Blaming "self/Job" would appear to me to be just another way of counting sins against Job. I have a couple of quotes from Job that I may pull out later to show how Job "divided" himself in these matters with Gods Word assistance.

Who is blaming Job? God was angry with his three friends.

A gaffe is a blunder(er.)

Gotcha thanks I never get peoples words here. It drives me nuts especially that "debate speak" (if you know what I mean)

If you love your fellow mankind, I will have little if any cause with you on the negative side of the ledger.

Well, if I didnt only the devil is responsible right? I'd be off the hook?

You know I'm busting your chops dont cha?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[sunlover1]

Not only commits, but continues to keep sinning. All of this appears to be present/continuing tense. [still learning the greek though LOL]

Translation taken from Tex-Rec [KJV] and I prefer writing the english equivalent to EACH greek word, thereby not adding-to or taking-away from it.

[Tex-Rec] 1 John 3:8 The one-doing the sin out of the devil is, that from beginning the devil is sinning. Into this was manifested the Son of the God, that he should be loosing the works of the devil

Bingo.

Hi Squint !
It appears you've hijacked my thread.

just joking.
No worries mate.

We cannot continue in sin, because
we're born of incorruptable seed.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.


10 In this the children of God are manifest,
and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,
neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning,
that we should love one another.

And naturally it all comes down to love,
born of the Spirit. (fruit on the tree) lol
Against such there is no law.


Interesting topic indeed Squint.
Thank you for sharing.
I enjoy reading your thoughts!

love,
sunlover

 

[squint]

Bingo.
We cannot continue in sin, because
we're born of incorruptable seed.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;
for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God.


10 In this the children of God are manifest,
and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,
neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning,
that we should love one another.

And naturally it all comes down to love,
born of the Spirit. (fruit on the tree) lol
Against such there is no law.

love,
sunlover

It would appear to me that you have divided SPOT ON and PERFECTLY there KID! It's always a joy to my heart to see His Truth in others in these matters.

enjoy, and spread The Word!

squint

 

[squint]

Squint its because SIN (in us) BUT SIN will NOT have DOMINION over us. We cannot say WE are without SIN (because its IN US) in THE FLESH theres no good thing IN THE FLESH. The presence of Sin (which ENTERED IN) is IN US. Its IN our FLESH (after a carnal truth). The division is between the flesh and the Spirit. We are translated from walking after the flesh (by the circumcision of Christ) to walking in the Spirit. We are not to OBEY IT we are to PUT IT OFF and its by the GRACE of God is THAT which teaches us TO DENY the lusts thereof.

I would pose that it is no so much the "flesh" as what is IN the flesh eh? See Romans 7:17-25 and tell me if the SIN that indwelt and the "evil present" with Paul whenever he desired to do good was the "same as" Paul wouldja? Perhaps that would make things clearer?

Is it possible? I believe it is and I dont see the contradiction. I can't SAY I am without sin (FACT) but that doesnt mean SIN has to DOMINATE our lives because the ~all sufficient~ and EFFECTUAL grace of God should be teaching us TO DENY IT. Its POWER comes by THE LAW, it SPRINGS TO LIFE (in us) and SIN ABOUNDS (not abates) and becomes utterly sinful. This wrought by the commandment. WITHOUT THE LAW SIN IS DEAD.

Weeeelll, just because you don't do the "deed" doesn't mean you don't "think" about it eh?

The lesson about this thread is that there is MORE than just one occupant of the flesh, as Jesus clearly showed us in many many cases, and particularly in a couple of certain disciples named Peter and Judas in whom SATAN entered. That is where the line is drawn between mankind and devilkind and these are assuredly not the same "entities."

Is it IN US? Absolutely, its TO BE DEAD simply because WE DIED TO THE LAW. Two principals US in the flesh (after a spiritual truth) and the law (trying to be perfected) by that which makes NOTHING PERFECT but that which EMPOWERS SIN. The MOTIONS OF IT (Sin) are BY THE LAW.

I could say many things about the Law but the Law is holy, righteous, good if used properly, spiritual, meant for life etc. We don't nullify the Law by our faith. Quite the opposite.

If through the Spirit we MORTIFY the deeds of the body (this body of death) we shall live. Its CHRIST who comes WITHOUT SIN, and He said, IF I by THE FINGER OF GOD CAST OUT DEVILS (there ya go Squint ) the KINGDOM OF GOD of God (HIS POWER) has COME UNTO YOU. He is the righteousness of God.

heh heh heh. I was hoping you'd get to that!

You see there is no way we can RID ourselves from sin if we can't differentiate ourselves from the temporal causes of same. Once that PINPOINT is made and placed upon the devil and his messengers we have scriptures that make PERFECT SENSE.

Again, its HIM Squint. The fear of the Lord is to HATE EVIL (thats one of the things it IS) That was what Paul battled (within himself) saying I do the EVIL I HATE, because of that (to hate it) HE was no longer doing it BUT SIN in Him. It was not DEAD under the law but empowered by it.

Thank you yet once again for making and observing a PROPER AND SCRIPTURAL DIVISION. btw, this is the very first time I have met two people who SAW this division in one thread in many years. Kudos!

When we see that our flesh and minds are subject to that certain power of evil it is far far easier to get a leg up on it so to speak eh?

It was the Spirit of life in Christ that set him free from the law of SIN and death (that exists IN US) our FLESH.

Agreed again. Imagine that?

Yes really In the context of my post where you adress the "SAYING" part of having no sin as Job also speaks the very same of that same "SAYING" (given HE is declared by God three times that he is perfect) James is consistent within that patern concerning the perfect man offends not IN WORD. This is consistent with God declaring Job did not sin with HIS LIPS and spake what was right about God (not as His friends did).

You may remember that James said this about "word/waters:"

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be."

When we lay the cursing that proceeds to another mouth, we have again, a proper division, and one we should give no place to eh? How long have christians cursed their fellow man unto eternal torture in fire? Now we may see that it is NOT THEM who do such things, but what has captured their lips...

Do you also know that only two in scripture have the power of death? The TONGUE and THE DEVIL are the two shown that do. Prov 18:21 and Heb 2:14

I see no difference in their produce or the "temporal source, "the DEVIL."

Good thing I warm up my own studying and approval before God not men.

You are doing just GREAT imho. Just took a bit, but that's perfectly OK!

I havent a clue to what your looking for Squint

I have no issues with you at this point. You are a very fine divider and I kinda sensed that in your first post as it had the kiss of His Truth upon it.

Job 41:4 Canst thou ~draw out~ leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

The mystery of Iniquity also IS LET

2Thes 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

The TONGUE is a WORLD of Iniquity

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity

My approach comes would naturally come in at a different angle. I dont want to play pages worth of twister.

I think you hit things on the head pretty well.

Neither do I, by NATURE children of wrath, interesting the law WORKETH WRATH.

I divide it between FLESH and SPIRIT they are two different things. The lusts of your father ye will do, I get that.[/quote]

That "father" ain't my Father eh?

When I said I did not understand your response, it was how it related to my response and a better explanation of what you were talking about was all that was needed Squint.

Thanks, I hadnt been fully following to be honest with ya.

Thats what I was giving, I didnt see a contradition in the "presence" of sin (not being able to say we are "without it") and Sin having its dominion in our lives. To me, it doesnt contradict anything in my eyes as its divided between the flesh (where its empowered) and the Spirit (where it has no dominion). So although we can be in "the flesh" (after a carnal truth) after a spiritual truth we are not if so be the Spirit of Christ be in us and we are led by the Spirit. I dont "blame" the flesh, it is what it is "flesh" and "Spirit is spirit".

I wasnt expecting to wrestle with ya, I made one observation, posting two verses and thats it.

The question remains for you Squint, tell ya what, I'll let you work out what you believe remains because its not a question that remains for me. I can fully accept both without it presenting a problem (in my thinking).

Where rightful division and judgment on these matters arises from scripture and we SEE the difference between ourselves as Gods offspring and that sin is OF THE DEVIL, there is no cause to deny "their" existence in our flesh, but that in no means makes THEM me, you or our fellow, mankind. Have you ever heard that "in church?"

I certainly dont think otherwise.

Who is blaming Job? God was angry with his three friends.

I would blame NONE of the others, save for the ones who spoke from their bodies what was not true or right and that was NOT THEM as Gods offspring, dig?

Gotcha thanks. I never get peoples words here. It drives me nuts especially that "debate speak" (if you know what I mean)

Well, if I didnt only the devil is responsible right? I'd be off the hook?

You know I'm busting your chops dont cha?

Peace

Fireinfolding

You're doing excellent! Perfect in fact!

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

The devil is the father of sin, yes.

But are you saying that you (squint) do not sin?

Any particular "sin" that a person (all mankind are Gods offspring) is THEIRS as those things pertain to THEIR flesh, but that sin indwelling them is NO LONGER THEM just as the sin indwelling Paul and the "evil present" with Paul was NO LONGER HIM. Paul did an excellent job of SEPARATING HIMSELF from that working in Romans 7:17-25 and went on to "elaborate" that DIVISION in the infamous and hotly disputed Romans 9 wherein he observed that in the SAME LUMP there is both a "vessel of honor" and a "vessel of dishonor and wrath." It's a pity to make these two vessels ONE other than that they BOTH occupy the FLESH.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Not only commits, but continues to keep sinning. All of this appears to be present/continuing tense. [still learning the greek though LOL]

Translation taken from Tex-Rec [KJV] and I prefer writing the english equivalent to EACH greek word, thereby not adding-to or taking-away from it.

[Tex-Rec] 1 John 3:8 The one-doing the sin out of the devil is, that from beginning the devil is sinning. Into this was manifested the Son of the God, that he should be loosing the works of the devil

{TEX-REC} 1 John 3:8 o <3588> {THE} poiwn <4160> (5723) {ONE DOING} thn <3588> {THE} amartian <266> {SIN,} ek <1537> {OUT} tou <3588> {OF THE} diabolou <1228> {DEVIL} estin <2076> (5748) {IS;} oti <3754> {THAT} ap <575> {FROM} archV <746> {BEGINNING} o <3588> {THE} diaboloV <1228> {DEVIL} amartanei <264> (5719) {IS SINNING}. eiV <1519> {INTO} touto <5124> {THIS} efanerwqh <5319> (5681) {WAS MANIFESTED} o <3588> {THE} uioV <5207> {SON} tou <3588> {OF THE} qeou <2316> {GOD,} ina <2443> {THAT} lush <3089> (5661) {HE SHOULD BE LOOSING} ta <3588> {THE} erga <2041> {WORKS} tou <3588> {OF THE} diabolou <1228> {DEVIL.}

Man, we have fully 3 other CHILDREN OF GOD who see this division right here in this thread. What a joy!

Yes, as long as we are occupants of the flesh, we should both discern and DIVIDE ourselves from that working, and also UNDERSTAND it in others, even while LOVING our fellow mankind ALL eh?

enJOY!

squint

 

[Fireinfolding]

I would pose that it is no so much the "flesh" as what is IN the flesh eh? See Romans 7:17-25 and tell me if the SIN that indwelt and the "evil present" with Paul whenever he desired to do good was the "same as" Paul wouldja? Perhaps that would make things clearer?

Well, dats what it sez der Squint

I'll underline my post

Squint its because SIN (in us) BUT SIN will NOT have DOMINION over us. We cannot say WE are without SIN (because its IN US) in THE FLESH theres no good thing IN THE FLESH. The presence of Sin (which ENTERED IN) is IN US. Its IN our FLESH (after a carnal truth). The division is between the flesh and the Spirit. We are translated from walking after the flesh (by the circumcision of Christ) to walking in the Spirit. We are not to OBEY IT we are to PUT IT OFF and its by the GRACE of God is THAT which teaches us TO DENY the lusts thereof.

I didnt get your latter question Squint its the way its worded. I will GUESS at what your asking, because I already posted it was not I (Paul) but SIN. The good he would not but the evil he hated that he did. It was no longer Paul doing it but sin.

Weeeelll, just because you don't do the "deed" doesn't mean you don't "think" about it eh?

I include BOTH in my own estimation Squint. The "thou shalt not COVET" was the very commandment Paul used in his example in Romans that showed him what LUST was. We already know he that looks at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery in his heart with her.

Romans 7:8 But ~sin~, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law ~sin~ was dead.

The lesson about this thread is that there is MORE than just one occupant of the flesh, as Jesus clearly showed us in many many cases, and particularly in a couple of certain disciples named Peter and Judas in whom SATAN entered. That is where the line is drawn between mankind and devilkind and these are assuredly not the same "entities."

Yeah Im familiar with how you see it (at least I think I am). Just answer me this Squint (its buggin the crap out of me)...are you one of the few who refers to these as 6 inch devils? I forget which did, whether it was you or the other guys (who I can name). If so where on earth did you come up with that?

Im not even sure it was you who did. But I do think thats strange

I could say many things about the Law but the Law is holy, righteous, good if used properly, spiritual, meant for life etc. We don't nullify the Law by our faith. Quite the opposite.

I did not say the law was not holy just and good. Neither did I say we nullify the law by our faith. I cant see where you might think I implied that (if you did).

heh heh heh. I was hoping you'd get to that!

I thought I'd hit your button

You see there is no way we can RID ourselves from sin if we can't differentiate ourselves from the temporal causes of same. Once that PINPOINT is made and placed upon the devil and his messengers we have scriptures that make PERFECT SENSE.

Its His EFFECTUAL grace (which by faith /a FRUIT of the Spirit) we have ACCESS. This comes by Christ, and Its Christ becoming of an EFFECT unto us. If ye seek to be justified by the law ye have fallen from GRACE and Christ is become of NONE EFFECT. Its by HIS power through Whom we live and overcome and that by the same faith WE ADD to. If through the Spirit ye mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live. We are not to walk after the flesh but after the Spirit

Thank you yet once again for making and observing a PROPER AND SCRIPTURAL DIVISION. btw, this is the very first time I have met two people who SAW this division in one thread in many years. Kudos!

When we see that our flesh and minds are subject to that certain power of evil it is far far easier to get a leg up on it so to speak eh?

Well, thats sorta plainly written, I cant see how one can divide what is clearly written

Agreed again. Imagine that?

Miracles DO happen squint!

I told you I wasnt at odds with some of the things you said, Im not the one you want to wrestle to the ground lol

Does posting two verses to you often end up going this way?

"Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be."

Amen

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; ~but that~ which cometh out of the mouth, ~this~ defileth a man.

Yes, the bitter water that causes a curse... James 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

When we lay the cursing that proceeds to another mouth, we have again, a proper division, and one we should give no place to eh? How long have christians cursed their fellow man unto eternal torture in fire? Now we may see that it is NOT THEM who do such things, but what has captured their lips...

No wonder these things "ought not be"

Psalm 109:18 As he clothed himself with cursing like as with his garment, so let it come into his bowels like water, and like oil into his bones.

Bitter water is a great study

Numbers 5:24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.

You ofcourse would know that bitter envying (strife) is connected to the bitter waters which is earthly, sensual, (yes) even ~devilish~ wisdom

Earthly earth wormy stuff... sounds like skinworms dont it?

I see no difference in their produce or the "temporal source, "the DEVIL."

Well thats good Squint, I was showing their "similiaities"

You are doing just GREAT imho. Just took a bit, but that's perfectly OK!

Well wooohooo !! Im so glad I got your approval

I have no issues with you at this point. You are a very fine divider and I kinda sensed that in your first post as it had the kiss of His Truth upon it.

Thats a relief Squint Id hate to see what I'd be put through when I actually disagree with ya

I would blame NONE of the others, save for the ones who spoke from their bodies what was not true or right and that was NOT THEM as Gods offspring, dig?

Well, ya cant kick the messenger it says God was angry at Job's three freinds. I have no say on what it reads concerning who God was angry with.

I dont think I even come into the equation I am of no consequence lol

You're doing excellent! Perfect in fact!

Well gee Squint, thanks so much Have you ever thought of becoming a cheerleader?

You'd really make a great one yanno

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Rick Otto]

I think I see it too, but I will have to re-read these posts at a better time.
I'm sorta used to seein' it in psychological terms.
I still have a habit of identifying with my flesh, but there's a "higher self", a spirit, that dis-associates w/my baser instincts and individuates, maturing thru the war in my members.
I think of the embryonic stage where we appear to have gills and look a little reptilian. I have sensed this "lower self" and it's self preservation instinct imperative seek dominance in my thought life. It has perhaps a rough correlation to the... let's see if I can remember... the "lowere" limbic system with its cortical ganglia involved in autonomic functions as differentiated with the cerebral cortex and frontal lobes involved in abstract thought and altruistic reasoning.
Been awhile since I waded thru all that junk.
I used to read some of my older brother's college texts that he would bring home from Harvard. He got a BS in Psychology and a few years later took his own life.
I often wonder how much having studied under tjhe direction of BF Skinner, the 'father' of "Biological Determinism" and author of "Beyond Freedom & Dignity" had to do with that.
He was maybe an overachiever where I had become a "black sheep" and survived the uberculture by submerging in the counter-culture.

 

[Oblio]

That sucks Rick.

My prayers ...

 

[Rick Otto]

Yeah.
In High School he was straight A's, President of The Student Council, All-Star catcher on the Baseball team, 1st string Halfback on the football team, big, strong, & handsome.
After college, he didn't have the grades & dad didn't have the money to shoehorn him into Medical School, so he was training to be an airline steward with Eastern Airlines in Chicago the summer after I had graduated from High School (he was 4yrs older).
I was busting my tail makin' money & not realy lookin' forward to college at Stetson University in Deland Florida, 20 miles west of Daytona.
We blew it all off & headed West.
We put $50 deposit down on a car we drove out to San Jose for some people who were moving there from Indianapolis.
We picked up a hitchiker in Utah, who was AWOL from the Navy on the East Coast. They were supposed to have stationed him on the West Coast as per recruiting agreement (his dad had died & they agreed to station him near his mom & sisters). The Navy counseled him to go AWOL & turn himself in on the West Coast, because it would cut thru the red tape. We camped in his family's back yard in Carmel, doin' chores for them & neighbors. We hitch-hiked to Fort Ord to visit him.
When we walked on base and started hitchin' for a ride, people looked at us like we were crazy. Finaly an MP stopped. We jumped into his Jeep, & I said,"Boy am I glad YOU stopped. People looked at us like we were criminals or somethin'!"
He said,"Well, it's against the law to hitch-hike on Base."
"Oops, sorry!" I said..."Can ya give us a ride?"
He said, "Wait a minute...". He got his sargeant on the radio & asked him what to do. The sargent said "Where are they goin'?"
I said "The Stockade." I could hear laughter over the radio. I explained we were goin' to visit a buddy, so they gave us a ride. Cool.

Then we camped in Big Sur for a few weeks.
Then we headed to San Francisco to check it out.
We stayed in a Christian commune called "Shilo House" that would put you up for up to 3 nights & feed you if you sat thru an hour Bible study.

My brother & I split up in Frisco. I went to Berkely and camped out in a huge planter that held a big pine tree, in a courtyard on top of a big modern, church where about ten other hippies camped. We all worked in a free-meal program that an old woman organized after being saved from pneumonia by an outreach program the church once held.
My brother went to Wales to ask a woman he met in college, to marry him.
Be right back, I gotta change an iota on the widget processor...

 

[Rick Otto]

I basicaly went out there to get away from my life & get some perspective on it. I had already gon thru alienation, isolation, disillusionment... all the dimensions of failure in the conventional sense.
But I had aquired street smarts, some celebrety status as a musician, and had already been thru all the drugs, arrests, the mental hospital, recovery... "the mill" basicaly. He was just begining to face & deal with, the dark side.
When I seriously considered suicide at 14, I reasoned it out. I thought,"OK, let's say I kill myself... then what? If the "I" part of me somehow survives in some form, there's at least a 50-50 chance or better, that I'll end up someplace worse, & then I might not be able to play the Suicide Card again." So I didn't. I decided to tuff it out. I hadn't yet heard that "Living Well is The Best Revenge" (LOL).
While I was in Berkely, I bought a pound one day. I traded joints for food & bags for pants & shoes, but I didn't want to sell it. I don't mesh well with raw capitalism, so I gave most of it to a black buddy, Joe Raintree, to sell.
Hangin' out on the USC Berkely campus, I ran into Bob Marley. He wasn't famous yet (fall '73), so I didn't know who he was, but his dreadlocks and accent were fascinatin'. I saw Bonnie Rait & didn't know who she was at the time, either. The church I stayed at hosted a Joan Baez concert. I was mesmerized. She laughed when I asked her after the concert if she was married (She'd turned Lesbian). I was into Jazz & Blues - what did I know?
One night walkin' across campus, I was right at the edge where Telegraph Avenue starts. I heard a footfall & looked up to see who it was. It was John Lennon in short hair & a 3 piece window-pane suit!
He looked up at me, & I said,"John Lennon! I've been meanin' to talk to you." He nodded, so we started up Telegraph Avenue together.
I told him first I had to thank him for injecting so much Rythm & Blues into Rock & roll, because it made growin' up so much easier. I said, of course the girls went a little berserk, callin' each other by your names & stuff. He shrugged & lifted his hands up, like "What can ya do?"
I said, "Ya know, Sgt. Pepper's" was the first album I spent money on! He smiled...
Gotta finish tomorrow
My widget processer just ate three doodgiewowmers!

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Wow, what an exciting life. (Sorry about your bro. I never thought of not commiting suicide as "toughing it out" I always thought of...err guess that was stupid of me.

 

[sunlover1]

It would appear to me that you have divided SPOT ON and PERFECTLY there KID! It's always a joy to my heart to see His Truth in others in these matters.

enjoy, and spread The Word!

squint

KID??

LOVE it!!

Wow, what an exciting life. (Sorry about your bro. I never thought of not commiting suicide as "toughing it out" I always thought of...err guess that was stupid of me.

Wow, yes.
Sorry to hear about that tragedy.


And wow, yes, what a full life.
(Reminds me of Johnny Cash,
I've been everywhere man!)

Bonny Raitt!!
Alman Bros??!
(read it somewhere else)

Me and my kids
are SO jealous.
OH well, we know
someone in Higher
Places.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Any particular "sin" that a person (all mankind are Gods offspring) is THEIRS as those things pertain to THEIR flesh, but that sin indwelling them is NO LONGER THEM just as the sin indwelling Paul and the "evil present" with Paul was NO LONGER HIM. Paul did an excellent job of SEPARATING HIMSELF from that working in Romans 7:17-25 and went on to "elaborate" that DIVISION in the infamous and hotly disputed Romans 9 wherein he observed that in the SAME LUMP there is both a "vessel of honor" and a "vessel of dishonor and wrath." It's a pity to make these two vessels ONE other than that they BOTH occupy the FLESH.

enjoy!

squint

Yes... as Jesus says (John 17) that we are not of this world. That is because we are of the Spirit. As children of Christ we should no longer have need of things of this world. But our flesh still is of this world. "The spirit is willing but the body is weak".

So, we are to fight evil by fighting these evil urges of the flesh. Things like lust and anger. Jesus did not do away with the Law but instead put the Law on our hearts and brought truth and grace.

Many of the Pharisees were hypocrites, not because of there lack of following the law, but because they did not know the law spiritually or on their hearts. That is why Jesus said to do as they say for they sit on the seat of Moses. That did not change...

Romans 7
24 Miserable one that I am! Who will deliver me from this mortal body? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with my mind, serve the law of God but, with my flesh, the law of sin.

I see Paul wanting to go home and be rid of the evils of this world. Here I see him saying his flesh still wants to sin though his mind does not. So, we see Paul battling with evil through himself. We all battle evils in this way. It is our duty as children of God to fight evil.

BUT... when we sin we cause harm to our temple. When we lust and enjoy it and continue to lust we are being hypocrites ourselves. When we are angry at another and dwell on that anger then until we forgive them in our hearts we sin. This sin defiles our temples where the Holy Spirit took up residence when we were baptized.

So what happens to the baptized man (or woman) that is baptized and then lives a life of greed? Doesn't that man place his greed above God and so then he makes his greed an idol? Can the Rich man be guilty of idolitry for money? Or te perverse man guilty of idolitry for sex? Or the murdered guilty of idolotry of anger and hatred?

 

[squint]

Yes... as Jesus says (John 17) that we are not of this world. That is because we are of the Spirit. As children of Christ we should no longer have need of things of this world. But our flesh still is of this world. "The spirit is willing but the body is weak".

The condition of sinless flesh or mind is not promised by the scriptures.

So, we are to fight evil by fighting these evil urges of the flesh.

The flesh is subject to the influences of SIN, which is of the DEVIL, not that flesh itself is sin.

Things like lust and anger. Jesus did not do away with the Law but instead put the Law on our hearts and brought truth and grace.

Many of the Pharisees were hypocrites, not because of there lack of following the law, but because they did not know the law spiritually or on their hearts.

Have you considered that Jesus actually did speak to "children of the devil" in the flesh of those men???

You also know that ALL of Israel are children of God (Deut. 14:1 Psalm 82:6) and the Pharisees were no exception. The existence of the demonic in the flesh is no surprise in the Gospels. Jesus showed that on nearly every page. Religious people however have a very hard time coming to grips with that possibility personally because of that same existence of sin indwelling, which IS of the devil.

That is why Jesus said to do as they say for they sit on the seat of Moses. That did not change...

Jesus didn't come to condemn the captives of sin, but to expose the captors and to RESIST them IN mankind's flesh. When you "hear" Jesus speaking, why is it that most automatically assume that Jesus was only speaking to one entity class when that is obviously NOT the case?

I see Paul wanting to go home and be rid of the evils of this world. Here I see him saying his flesh still wants to sin though his mind does not. So, we see Paul battling with evil through himself. We all battle evils in this way. It is our duty as children of God to fight evil.

I cite that scripture set primarily because Paul identified the sin indwelling his flesh as NO LONGER I and I also do not and will not say that the EVIL PRESENT with Paul was "himself."

Paul identifies that The Law arouses, empowers and reveals the presence of indwelling sin, which same was NOT him. He elaborates this very sufficiently in Romans 9 when he identifies that in the SAME LUMP there is a vessel of honor and a vessel of dishonor and wrath. It is simplistically foolish to MIX these two vessels.

BUT... when we sin we cause harm to our temple.

Who sits in that temple anyway Jack? Why do you blame and count sins against only yourself, or more accurately "to the other guy?" That also is a working of darknesss that is in the flesh, and those who perform that work do so out of slavery to that same power.

God in Christ does not count sins against mankind and He and "we" are to be reconciled to that FACT.

When we lust and enjoy it and continue to lust we are being hypocrites ourselves. When we are angry at another and dwell on that anger then until we forgive them in our hearts we sin. This sin defiles our temples where the Holy Spirit took up residence when we were baptized.

Point observed again.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.

If God in Christ does not do this, WHY do you? I don't blame you for that action btw.

So what happens to the baptized man (or woman) that is baptized and then lives a life of greed? Doesn't that man place his greed above God and so then he makes his greed an idol? Can the Rich man be guilty of idolitry for money? Or te perverse man guilty of idolitry for sex? Or the murdered guilty of idolotry of anger and hatred?

Were "just man" the only activity going on in the flesh Jack, I would have to agree, but in the light of the sufficiency of Gods Grace to all mankind in Christ, I am compelled to look to the most obvious other parties IN the flesh that perform ALL SIN, that being the DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS if I do not want to "count sins" against my fellow man. I can say in Truth that mankind are THEIR SLAVES in flesh and mind.

In that way "we" can still love all of our fellow man and still reside in sound judgement regarding sin and judgments.

Happy dividing.

enjoy!

squint

 

[JacktheCatholic]

The condition of sinless flesh or mind is not promised by the scriptures.

Not promised this is true.

Catholics only recognize Mary the mother of Jesus as being without sin including original sin.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Have you considered that Jesus actually did speak to "children of the devil" in the flesh of those men???

Such as "Legion"?

These were people being possessed by a demon or demons.

I do not recall if it was you or another mentioning the 'strong man' and 'binding' him? Regardless...

It was Legion that was binded by Jesus. No other could have bound Legion. Why? Because Legion was 1,000 demons in possession of a man's body.

You comment here sounds to me like you are equating our battles with the flesh with that of demonmic possession???

 

[JacktheCatholic]

God in Christ does not count sins against mankind and He and "we" are to be reconciled to that FACT.

Jesus equated sins to debts. Our debts...

SIN is another way of saying we have rejected God. Sin is evil because it is an attempt to distance or remove ourselves from God. Only by being as Jesus is can we stay close to God. God does everything for us and it is through our will that we push God away. So we must learn to be as Jesus and in so doing we allow God to be close to us and cause change in our hearts.