What are God's reasons for sending someone to hell?

[Albion]

I don't believe that a loving God would do that. Because, you're right, vengeance would be the only reason.

How about lowering the rhetoric and just saying that you didn't qualify for the big reward? If you aren't admitted to law school are you correct to say the refusal letter was just "vengeance" against you and the only reason for the denial? Maybe you do, but it doesn't follow logically.

 

[bhsmte]

How about lowering the rhetoric and just saying that you didn't qualify for the big reward? If you aren't admitted to law school are you correct to say the refusal letter was just "vengeance" against you and the only reason for the denial? Maybe you do, but it doesn't follow logically.

I guess, some of it would depend on the alternative of not being admitted to law school.

 

[Rajni]

I guess, some of it would depend on the alternative of not being admitted to law school.

Yep.

Plus, the law-school analogy is a reward-based system,
whereas Christianity (some sects, at least) claims that
salvation is a "gift", rather than a reward for which one
must make personal effort to qualify.

-

 

[johnford]

You forget a rather crucial detail....

These are supposedly his rules...
And we are supposedly his creation...

In other words... Being all powerfull and all knowing, he created us specifically in such a way that we wouldn't be able to live upto the rules that he himself deviced and imposed on us.

Determinist and material arguments cannot led to to thinking that it has been in humanity that has practiced evil ... not God.

This resulted in a system where every human was doomed to be punished.

Fortunately neither you nor I have to remain so 'doomed'.

To top it off, the only way he could apparantly fix this flaw is by "sacrificing" himself to himself, to save us from himself as a loophole for the flawed system that he created.

You rationalism flounders here. If humanity is as you contend a 'doomed system' then why are you arguing ... why do you object? Apart from your personal opinion you have made no coherent statement that is rationally valid.

 

[johnford]

Which has no relevance at all to the point at hand.

Which is why your rationalist argument falter ... you cannot understanding the arguments involved other than you own flawed logic.

 

[Hawkins]

Eternal hell could well be a logical outcome.

From the design perspective, humans are to live an eternity but with a physical body which is decayable. Humans can recognize each other only through the physical body as an image. On the other hand, the physical body can't act as an eternal ID from the witnessing perspective. The continuity of an individual cannot be witnessed once the body is decayed. To simply put, humans need a permanent ID which is independent of the decayable physical body.[bless and do not curse]

That's why humans need a soul (immortality) which serves as the ID of an individual. Soul is thus capable of lasting forever, unlike the decayable body.

On the other hand, God is the only source of good. When a human soul leaves God, the only way he can go is to become evil. Without God's guidance, one can only go more and more evil. Satan actually sets such an example.

It is expected that hellfire will come when the souls of the wicked become unbearably evil, unless God gives out His grace to destroy the immortal souls.

However, God's promised grace is given out only through Christ but no other names. There might not be other form of grace for the destroying of those immortal souls. Plus that, God ever said the oath that "they can never enter my rest". There will be no rest for the wicked.

So if the above theological assumptions are correct, an eternal hell becomes a logical outcome. Plus that you are not anything superior to the angels. It’s by God’s mercy that Adam’s descendants are given the second chance to return to God.


Humans on earth rely heavily on our so called conscience to act. This could be the law God wrote in our hearts. Once we leave God, He may take it back. That is, those wicked souls in Hades may no longer be guided by the law or anything from God, as they are in a separation from God. Without God's guidance, they may turn quickly to someone like Satan himself.

 

[striger]

Everyone deserves hell but what happens in regeneration is mysterious to us

 

[DogmaHunter]

That would be correct. We are incapable of meriting heaven on our own efforts.

Then you must agree to my original point as well...
If we are incapable of meriting heaven and this god is all-knowing and all powerful and created both us and the rules by which one can "merit" heaven... then ultimately, god is responsible for our inability to merit heaven.

I don't see how you could ever argue yourself out of that one...

Had there never been a savior, I guess I'd agree.

The idea of punishing a scapegoat to absolve others from their guilt is a horrible idea.

To make people "guilty by default" (= original sin) is an even worse idea.

Creating a system where everybody is doomed by default and then provide/demand a "loophole" through a human sacrifice is an unjust system.

Demanding gullibility over rational reason is an unjust system.

Not to mention absurd.

Fault? It is possible, isn't it, that you don't live up to his standards? I don't see why this is so unthinkable to you.

Are you being stubborn on purpose?
The point is not that it is "possible" that someone doesn't live upto it. The point is that it is impossible to live upto it. For anyone. Not just me.

How is this not supportive of the point I made earlier?
Ultimately, it's god's fault that nobody lives upto his standard, because that's literally how he made both us and the rules (according to the story, off course).

It's like black folks punishing their child for being black.

Doomed unless something changes, yes. What's so rare about that idea?

It's an immoral idea.

Well, it makes perfect sense, so I can hardly agree with such an extreme conclusion as you have presented as the only way to look at things. You might as well say that if a seed is not planted it won't grow and bloom, so all is insane, immortal, unjust yada yada yada.

This statement seems as random as it gets.

Please explain how it makes "perfect sense".

 

[DogmaHunter]

How about lowering the rhetoric and just saying that you didn't qualify for the big reward? If you aren't admitted to law school are you correct to say the refusal letter was just "vengeance" against you and the only reason for the denial? Maybe you do, but it doesn't follow logically.

Actually....

In analogy to being accepted for law school, it's more like this:

- you are given a test that is impossible to pass
- alternatively, you are told a fantastical story which has nothing whatsoever to do with your education and are asked to "believe it on faith alone"
- if you do, you will get accepted
- if you don't, you will not only not get accepted, but additionally you'll be heavily punished.


So the test is pointless, because you wouldn't be able to pass it anyway.

It doesn't matter how good of a lawyer you could be (or are already).
It doesn't matter what you SAT's looked like.
It doesn't matter what your resumé looks like.

No, what matters is how gullible you are.

Unjust, unfair, nonsense.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Determinist and material arguments cannot led to to thinking that it has been in humanity that has practiced evil ... not God.

You either completely ignored the point, or you didn't get it.

I'm responding to the statement that it's impossible for humans to live upto god's standards to enter heaven, except through "acceptance" of jezus.

This means that humans by default are doomed for punishment.
This god made us that way.

God made it impossible for humans to live upto the standards to enter heaven.

That is the point. Ultimately, this is god's responsability. We can't be asked to do what we can't do. Especially not by the one that made sure it is impossible for us to do....

Fortunately neither you nor I have to remain so 'doomed'.

The whole point is that we are by default.

You rationalism flounders here. If humanity is as you contend a 'doomed system' then why are you arguing ... why do you object?

I couldn't care less in reality, because I'm not the one buying into the immoral story. I object to the morality presented by the story.

And the whole point of this forum is to have discussion about exactly that.

Apart from your personal opinion you have made no coherent statement that is rationally valid.

You assert it, but you haven't shown it.

To summarize:

- X creates a standard for being able to gain a reward. Failure of meeting the standard will result in punishment instead.
- X creates a bunch of entities and dooms them in such a way that they are incapable of meeting the standard. Now, by default, all these entities are doomed to be punished for the "crime" of being human.
- The only way to being saved from certain doom, is to kiss the feet of X and do his bidding.


I call this blackmail.

 

[stevevw]

I don't think that analogy works, however. Consider...the ISIS people are not the creation and possession (if you want to put it that way) of the judge. They are not all of humanity, either. And there is nothing in your scenario about them being rehabilitated in any way (as there is with the Christian story).

Nor does the Judge have the power of transforming lives. Its not just about forcing them into a court and telling them these are the alternatives like some get out of jail free card. Salvation is there for people to choose. It normally happens when someone is on their knees and is realizing they are a sinner and are unworthy. It is then when Jesus can transform them from a sinner into a child of God.

 

[stevevw]

Why does it take a blood sacrifice to get out of hell?

Because hell is a consequence of sin. Death is a consequence of sin. The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was to save us from the power of sin and death. It isnt just about the blood. It is more about the resurrection from death. By doing that Jesus defeated death once and for all. So therefor the physical death which is the consequence of sin no longer has a hold on us. We are raised up with Jesus to eternal life with Him.

 

[PsychoSarah]

The same reason why I am a Christian .... look around .... the alternatives suck.

People increasingly pretend they are living in utopia and governments love that ... stops them thinking too deeply.

And you failed to acknowledge your own thinking ... there was no 'atrocity'. That fact that you think Jesus' death was 'atrocious' is a decision who have made. So if you think his death was unjustified, unwarranted, you have to acknowledge as much and prove your point.

What happened to Jesus was par for the course for anyone who was not a Roman citizen, and who thumbed their nose at the Emperor and claimed to be a king of some sort.

No, what I meant is that it is atrocious to count his suffering as absolving anyone else's sins. Those who do "bad" are the ones who need to make up for it.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Because hell is a consequence of sin. Death is a consequence of sin. The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was to save us from the power of sin and death. It isnt just about the blood. It is more about the resurrection from death. By doing that Jesus defeated death once and for all. So therefor the physical death which is the consequence of sin no longer has a hold on us. We are raised up with Jesus to eternal life with Him.

In a way that is belief based and not morality based.

 

[stevevw]

In a way that is belief based and not morality based.

It wasn't so much about morals but how someone already in hell (for whatever reason) needed a blood sacrifice from Jesus to get out of hell. I guess it was a hypothetical question as far as BlueLightningTN is concerned.

 

[StevieBlunder]

From these verses it is clear to me that hell is eternal, I had to deny it too until I started reading the bible and realized how merciful and just God is. According to the bible many people will go to hell for eternity, BUT people will be judged according to their works. God knows how much people can handle so he won't put them in more pain than they can handle. A lot of people think hell is the same as being burned alive here on earth for eternity but that would be us figuring out what we can't fully understand with our earthly minds which is a common but fatal error.
To answer the question of why people are sent to hell. God's requirement for heaven is believing so if this is the way that God decides people go to heaven than we know it is the most just way of deciding for the individual who doesn't believe. We can't know how it is just as we can't know everything that plays out in their lives, but apparently it is and who are we to question God and his infinite wisdom on everything and everybody. So if you've had a good friend that you love and think is in hell, know that God is merciful and just. No, hell won't be happy like heaven but I know it isn't the same as being burned alive forever, not reading the Bible and using our own understandings causes this awful thought.
Anyways, on the positive side of things all of us who know Christ died for our sins get to spend eternity in heaven.

Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”


Revelation 20:15

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Mark 9:43-48

And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’


Revelation 20:14

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


Matthew 13:50

And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


2 Thessalonians 1:9

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Revelation 14:11

And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 20:10

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Luke 16:23

And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Revelation 19:20

And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Matthew 13:41-42

The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 7:13

“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Revelation 20:13

And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

Ecclesiastes 9:10

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

Mark 9:48-49

‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.

Matthew 12:36-41

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Revelation 20:12-13

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.

 

[Albion]

No, what I meant is that it is atrocious to count his suffering as absolving anyone else's sins. Those who do "bad" are the ones who need to make up for it.

Well, that is the wonder of the Christian faith, isn't it? We should atone but there is nothing we can do that would be sufficient to wipe out the consequences of our sin, so God did it for us.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

... I started reading the bible and realized how merciful and just God is. ...

Stevie, it is impossible for God to be all Just and all Merciful.

Mercy is the suspension of Justice.

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Well, that is the wonder of the Christian faith, isn't it? We should atone but there is nothing we can do that would be sufficient to wipe out the consequences of our sin, so God did it for us.

That makes no sense.

Let's say I break one of the ten commandments and check out a hot babe at the beach.

I can do something that is sufficient to wipe out the consequences: There are no consequences, so I have to do nothing, and I have wiped out the consequences.

Or let's say I use the Lord's name in vain.

I can do something that is sufficient to wipe out the consequences: There are no consequences, so I have to do nothing, and I have wiped out the consequences.

 

[Golden Yak]

That makes no sense.

Let's say I break one of the ten commandments and check out a hot babe at the beach.

I can do something that is sufficient to wipe out the consequences: There are no consequences, so I have to do nothing, and I have wiped out the consequences.

Or let's say I use the Lord's name in vain.

I can do something that is sufficient to wipe out the consequences: There are no consequences, so I have to do nothing, and I have wiped out the consequences.

You're wrong, there are consequences - it hurts God's feelings.

And God's just so awesome that hurting his feelings means you deserve to be punished forever - that's how awesome he is. And God's feelings are so sensitive that he'll only be placated by devoting yourself to eternal worship of him.