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What am I doing wrong?

Codi Weston

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He has not been back since posting the OP.
I contemplate and read replies as they come. You don't have to log in, in order to do so. I didn't think anyone wanted a response.


This life is for God, not us. We belong to him and not to ourselves. What's more, there's nothing good you can do apart from him. Learn what it means to be "in Christ". Salvation isn't "accepting him" —that's fellowship. Salvation is God's doing. It is grace and not a result of anything we can say or do. It is not a decision. And it does not depend on your performance or self-assessment.
So do we sit around and wait for an apple to fall on our head while we contemplate/meditate/pontificate? I realize what the scriptures say. I also know what my gut tells me - and that what we do with our time here has to matter, otherwise life is not as important as the scriptures say it is. Grace is not given randomly. I would think it requires asking for it. Jesus never mentioned sitting around waiting for it. Of course I say this, after asking for two decades and nothing... I still don't feel delivered from sin. It still is ruler. I thought being born again means that you have the power to go without sin - to be disgusted by it and not want it. Jesus said that when believers ask, that He will keep the devil away from them. I guess I'm not a real believer because my flesh wins the day no matter how many times I ask God to keep the temptations distant.


It sounds like you're quite thoroughly saved. Jesus died for you, you've accepted his salvation, all good. Now it's time to get on with the business of sanctification.

Sanctification is a work that God does in us, but we don't just sit around passively waiting for it to happen. The Catholic tradition has a good phrase describing the Christian life, "cooperation with grace". God does God's work, but we also do things to make ourselves more open to God's work in us.

Can I ask about your regular spiritual disciplines? These are different for different people (personalities, etc.), but might include daily prayer, regular Bible study, reading of theological or devotional books, volunteering at a homeless shelter or a food pantry, participating in one of your church's community ministries, and so forth. What spiritual practices do you follow on a regular basis, and which ones seem best at helping you love God and your neighbor?
By "accepted his salvation", I mean as far as I can, with what words will allow. As mentioned, I pray every day. There is no feedback, so it is kind of like a ritual - might as well be writing in a diary.

The devil acknowledges that Jesus is God. That act obviously doesn't mean anything to God.

Regarding church involvement - although the elevation of an imperfect human (Mary) by Catholics is weird to me and doesn't make sense, the repetitive act of symbolic remorse and repentance feels very real (keyword: feels). Still, it's just words and motions and emotions. Accepting salvation is just words to me. It's empty. When does this Holy Spirit take hold?

Yes I go to church(es) - hasn't made much of a difference. I've been to every form of denomination from Anabaptist to Methodist to Calvinist (RPC) to Catholic. Have not been to a Jehovah witness service. After several decades of life, going to a church seems redundant and sometimes just gives a temporary false hope from an emotional feeling of "doing good".

Yes I have been baptized. I don't know what some water on your head has to do with spirits and eternity. Just seems symbolic to me.

You can probably tell by now that I am pretty confused - between the working salvation (Catholic crowd) and mental salvation (Presbyterian crowd). I don't really care who has the correct doctrine any more since, after over 20 years, none of which has had any sort of affect regarding the most basic problem of defeating sin.

Thanks all for your time.
 
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Sabertooth

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After several decades of life, going to a church seems redundant and sometimes just gives a temporary false hope from an emotional feeling of "doing good".
According to Paul (in Ephesians 4:11-13), the purposes for the Church leadership are
  1. for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry (that includes you),
  2. for the edifying of the body of Christ,
till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;...

The Christian Walk expects such mentorship to be in place.
An edifying church does the above. If a church does not, check out the next one.
I recommend these,
(Links above are locators.)
 
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PloverWing

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@Codi Weston : I wish I could connect you with a wise spiritual counsellor that you could meet with in person and talk with at length, to get a sense of what's troubling you most. But here are some thoughts:

1) On feeling God's presence: Some people are lucky enough to feel God's presence frequently in their lives. But many of us experience long stretches of God's silence. Additionally, emotions are tricky things; sometimes I feel spiritually joyous, and sometimes I feel spiritually and emotionally blah. Just keep going, even when you can't feel God. Actions are more important than feelings.

2) You've mentioned sin a number of times. Without describing the details of your private life to strangers on the Internet -- is there some particular sin that you're trying to overcome? If it's something that's harming people around you, perhaps there is a way you can make amends to them. If it's an addiction of some kind, secular counselling might be useful to you. If it's an unwanted sexual desire of some kind, do your best to stay away from occasions of temptation, but also be kind to yourself, as some level of sexual desire is a natural part of human biology; secular counselling might be useful here as well, if you're being driven to act in ways you don't want. If it's something involving a computer/phone screen (posting angry stuff, or porn, or wasting time on meaningless Internet scrolling), there's always the option of a total fast from the Internet -- lock your screens away in a corner of the basement, and do without them for a month or more.

If there's anyone in your life whose wisdom you trust, and whom you can trust to keep your confidences -- a pastor, or a spiritual director, or a wise friend, anyone like that -- I think it could be helpful to tell them the particulars of what's troubling you and listen to their guidance. (In my church tradition, confession and absolution can be a part of this, though it doesn't have to be.) There are people who have both seminary training and a degree in psychology or counselling, and they work as qualified Christian counsellors/therapists; someone like that could be a good resource for you, if one is nearby.
 
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lismore

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Hi all.

I've prayed for salvation, "accepted" Jesus as my savior in my head, asked to be changed, asked to be saved from sin, etc, almost each day for the past 21 years. Not much has changed over 21 years.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks in advance.
Hello Codi

Maybe this passage might be of use to you:

Romans 12: 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

God Bless You :)
 
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Mark Quayle

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Mark Quayle said:
This life is for God, not us. We belong to him and not to ourselves. What's more, there's nothing good you can do apart from him. Learn what it means to be "in Christ". Salvation isn't "accepting him" —that's fellowship. Salvation is God's doing. It is grace and not a result of anything we can say or do. It is not a decision. And it does not depend on your performance or self-assessment.
So do we sit around and wait for an apple to fall on our head while we contemplate/meditate/pontificate? I realize what the scriptures say. I also know what my gut tells me - and that what we do with our time here has to matter, otherwise life is not as important as the scriptures say it is. Grace is not given randomly. I would think it requires asking for it. Jesus never mentioned sitting around waiting for it. Of course I say this, after asking for two decades and nothing... I still don't feel delivered from sin. It still is ruler. I thought being born again means that you have the power to go without sin - to be disgusted by it and not want it. Jesus said that when believers ask, that He will keep the devil away from them. I guess I'm not a real believer because my flesh wins the day no matter how many times I ask God to keep the temptations distant.
It's not like that at all. In fact, nothing is automatic. It is only SURE, because God is doing it. The fact your condition/state bothers you is God's work. You may well have been regenerated before you ever knew it. Your desire for holiness is valid because GOD is doing it in you. Not because of anything random (just as you said). I am disgusted by my sin, but my rebellion against God is still in me by "the old man". What has changed is not so much my performance, as my pleasure and confidence that God is doing in me exactly as he wishes, and it is for his sake, his Glory. The structures taught me when I was young are no longer what judge me. God does, and he is merciful.

But there are all sorts of things that the believer does; in fact, if he does not, according to the Bible he doesn't even belong to Christ. Repentance, pursuing Christ, obedience. Success according to the rating we give ourselves is not what it is talking about. Disgust, well yes, but we can sear our consciences. Thank God for his grace and kindness toward us.
 
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ldonjohn

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So do we sit around and wait for an apple to fall on our head while we contemplate/meditate/pontificate? I realize what the scriptures say. I also know what my gut tells me - and that what we do with our time here has to matter, otherwise life is not as important as the scriptures say it is. Grace is not given randomly. I would think it requires asking for it. Jesus never mentioned sitting around waiting for it. Of course I say this, after asking for two decades and nothing... I still don't feel delivered from sin. It still is ruler. I thought being born again means that you have the power to go without sin - to be disgusted by it and not want it. Jesus said that when believers ask, that He will keep the devil away from them. I guess I'm not a real believer because my flesh wins the day no matter how many times I ask God to keep the temptations distant.
Codi, when a person becomes born-again Christian, he/she is given a new heart, a new nature. The bible says in 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." But, in 1 John1:8-9, it says "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins, and to cleans us from all unrighteousness." That might sound like a contradiction, but it isn't. Those 2 verses are saying that a born-again Christian has a new nature, the Holy Spirit comes inside the new believer and creates that new heart/nature, but the new believer still has the old sin nature. What this means is that the born-again Christian will face a daily battle for the rest of his/her life; a battle between the old nature & the new nature. Every day the Christian must choose to walk in one of those natures. IOW, everyday ask, "today will I walk in God's Spirit of will I walk in my flesh?" That is our choice. I admit that some days I choose to walk in God's Spirit, but other days I lose that battle.

Reading God's Word helps us with our struggles. For example Galatians 5:16-25 has a lot to say about the matter of our daily walk, v16 "This I say then, walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."v17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these things are contrary the one to the other so that ye cannot do the things that ye would." v18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." v19 -21 Paul says that works of the flesh are manifest in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such.
Next, in verse 22-23 Paul says, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. Then in verse 25 he says, "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." Paul is speaking to Christians here; not to unbelievers.

Most mornings, when I get up, I will ask God to help me walk in His Spirit that day; I'm not proud to admit that some days I forget. I have learned some things about how to approach the daily battle we all face. For example, one thing I have learned, and this is something I have struggled with for a long time, is that getting angry with someone over something he/she did does not help the situation, but usually makes matters worse. For example: In March of 2024 my wife went out to check our mailbox. She chose to go through the garage, so she had to open the garage door, which is connected to an automatic door opener. A few months earlier our neighbor had 3 armed men force open their garage door and break into their house one morning at around 2am. After that happened, my wife insisted that I put a manual bolt lock on our garage door; and of course I did just that. Well, when she went out to check the mail that day the garage door was not locked. She locked it thinking she was unlocking it, and when she mashed the button to open the door, the opener pulled one side of the door up about half way while the other end of the door remained in place due to being latched to the side rail. Not understanding what she had done, she ran in the house and announced to me that something was wrong with the door and that I needed to go look at it. The 16 ft. garage door was twisted badly & bent out of shape, and had to be completely replaced. At that moment I had to choose whether I would react in the Spirit or in my flesh. I knew that if I became angry with my wife that she would be emotionally crushed, so I chose "gentleness," and laughed & said "hey, I could have done the same thing. I think I'll take that latch off the new door." We both laughed about it, and I called a garage door guy who came out the next day and installed a new door for $1190. You might think that is a lot of money, and you would be right about that. But my wife means more to me than any amount of money.

Another example of how God's Holy Spirit has taught me how to choose to walk in His Spirit is that I have learned a new way to react to people who work in public places and sometimes they will do something that might cause someone to become angry with them, like maybe make a mistake with an order, or maybe have a problem with the computer/cash register and take extra time to take an order, and I have learned that if/when that happens to me, and it does happen often, to just be patient, "longsuffering," and smile at the person, and show some grace about the matter.

Codi, can you see that we are all in a battle between our flesh and the new heart God has placed in us? This is a battle that unbelievers do not face because they do not have that new heart. Jesus does not remove us from the battle; he helps us to get through it. In Galatians 1:1 Paul says "Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." We have liberty through Christ to choose to do the right thing.

John
 
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Codi Weston

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Codi, when a person becomes born-again Christian, he/she is given a new heart, a new nature....

Right. I am fairly certain this never happened to me. I am no different now then when I was 17 and arrogant. I am just a lot more laid back as I get older.

For example, one thing I have learned, and this is something I have struggled with for a long time, is that getting angry with someone over something he/she did does not help the situation, but usually makes matters worse....

.... Codi, can you see that we are all in a battle between our flesh and the new heart God has placed in us? This is a battle that unbelievers do not face because they do not have that new heart...

Not trying to down play this, but this is something non-believers do as well. Everyone I have ever known struggles to subdue anger - and keep a cool temper. Maturity is admired in the secular world as well. Anger also does not necessarily break any commandment/tenant unless it rises to the level of murderous thoughts.

You can live for yourself and still realize a lot of Christ's traits are highly valuable to mirror. I would assume that "Living for God" doesn't just entail being a good person.

Thanks all
 
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ldonjohn

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Codi, I don't know if I can find the right words or scriptures to help you. All I can do is try to relate the things I have learned in my Christian life & hope they might be of some value to your situation. Below are some thoughts that came to my mind as I read your reply to my last post.

In my last post I was trying to give you examples of how a "believer" might choose to walk in God's Spirit, and not walk in his/her flesh. Yes, unbelievers can do good works that mirror those of a believer. A born-again believer chooses to either live for "self", walk in his/her flesh, or live for God, walk in His Spirit. If the believer chooses to walk in his/her flesh and to do things that satisfy the flesh, things that would not be considered to be living for God, that person is still a believer. Similarly, if an unbeliever chooses to do "good things," things that might "mirror" things a Christian who is walking in God's Spirit might do, that unbeliever is still an unbeliever. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said, 21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of the Father which is in heaven." 22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work inequity."

Notice in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus says that many will come to him claiming they have prophesied in His name, have cast out devils, and have done many wonderful works, obviously thinking they have earned their way into heaven, but Jesus told them "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of the Father which is in heaven." Jesus is saying that to enter the kingdom of heaven we must do the will of the Father. The Gospel of John helps us to understand what Jesus is saying about works & the will of God. In John chapter 6 the people came to Jesus and asked him what they should do to work the works of God, verse 28, "Then they said unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" and in verse 29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (KJV)

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" v 9 "Not of works, lest any man should boast." v 10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (KJV) And Galatians 5:13 "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." (KJV) We are not saved by our works, but we are saved to do good works. Because we are in Christ we have liberty to do good.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I am thinking the real question in this thread is the matter of your "salvation." You stated that you have prayed for 21 years to accept Jesus as your savior, and nothing has changed; you don't think you are saved. I don't know if you are or are not saved. But, if you would allow me to share my own personal struggle with the same issue, it might help you; might not; I don't know.

I struggled with not knowing if I was saved for several years. I heard preachers quote Romans 10:13 many times, which says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (KJV) I wanted to be saved, and I would try to work up a sense of strong belief in "Jesus," and then say a prayer asking God to save me "in Jesus' name." I would "feel" saved for a few days, then the doubts & fear would return, and I would not feel that I was saved. It became a continuous cycle of working up some sense of faith & saying a prayer, and having confidence of being saved for a few days, then losing that confidence, and the struggle continued.

After several miserable years of struggling to find a peace and assurance that God had heard my prayers and saved me, but never finding any lasting peace/assurance, I began to earnestly study scriptures, hoping to find something that would show me how to have a "saving" faith; a faith that would give me a settled peace about the matter of my salvation. I found my answer in the Gospel of John, and in Romans chapter 10.

The Holy Spirit began to work in me because I was desperate to know how to truly "believe" in Jesus, and He showed me that my faith was misplaced. I saw that my faith we in me, in myself. I was saying prayers, asking God to save me, and thinking that me saying the prayer was what saved me. "I" was the problem. My faith was in my prayer. Also, I found that in Romans 10, that verse 14 is needed to fully understand verse 13. Verse 13 says,"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." and verse 14 says "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how they hear without a preacher?" (KJV) That means that the prayer is our hand of faith that reaches out to the One who died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sin; we call on him because we see that there is nothing we can do about the matter except to remove ourself from the solution and to cast our hopeless self upon him; putting it all on him; leave in his hands. We can't do it, but he will do it for us. Look to him.

The Holy Spirit turned on the light for me and I "got it." My troubled soul was immediately filled with "relief" as the Holy Spirit convinced me that when Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose from that grave, that he did all that God required for my sins to be forgiven & for me to be saved. I saw that there was nothing "I" could do or needed to do to get God to save me, except to simply turn my "faith" from "me" and look to the finished work of Jesus on the cross.

The moment I "got it" the fear was gone, and my troubled soul was filled with "relief" as my confidence moved from "me" to what Jesus had already done for me on the cross. I didn't need to work up a sense of faith because the Holy Spirit had just brought me out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of the truth of the Gospel. I knew that Jesus was waiting for me to come to him, and I immediately found myself praying to Him; not begging Him to save me, but thanking him for paying the penalty for my sin by dying on the cross for me, and I asked him to change me. He did change me that day; He gave me a new heart that only He can give. He gave me peace. More than 50 years have passed since that day, and today I still have that peace. It is a peace that is impossible to explain to anyone who has never found that peace for themselves.

Jesus said in John 6:37, "All the Father giveth me shall come tom me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (KJV)

If you are not certain about your salvation, make it certain today. Jesus is calling you to come to him. You can do that in prayer, but when you do come to him, trust him; do not trust your prayer. The prayer doesn't save you; Jesus does.

Hope this might help in some small way.

Regards,


John
 
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Codi Weston

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You are correct in your assumption, and yes, I guess I am in a somewhat similar conundrum - just never "got it".

If the believer chooses to walk in his/her flesh and to do things that satisfy the flesh, things that would not be considered to be living for God, that person is still a believer....

....but Jesus told them "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of the Father which is in heaven."

Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (KJV)

Jesus said in John 6:37, "All the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (KJV)

The meaning of the four statements above either were lost in the original Latin or bounce the ball from one spectrum to the next.

So by believer, do we mean devil (who believes that Jesus can change lives through first hand observation) or human (who believes that Jesus can change lives through an initial faith in Someone abstract and distant)?

We need to believe - but for anything to take root, we must also do the will of God - and to do the will of God is to believe. This seems like a chicken/egg situation.

It sounds like from your testimony, you really weren't in full compliance with or had the feeling of salvation until you "got it". I've heard others have similar types of experiences with religion - almost like when you solve a complex math problem with your own genius or when an apple hit Newton in the head. Hopefully I will be able to say I "got it".

Thanks again John
 
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Mark Quayle

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ldonjohn said:
Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (KJV)
We need to believe - but for anything to take root, we must also do the will of God - and to do the will of God is to believe. This seems like a chicken/egg situation.
If believing in Christ is this 'work' that we must do, then that it is not saving faith, since Eph 2 says: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." Therefore, when it says it is the work of God that [we] believe, it is talking about a work that God does. No chicken-egg situation.

I mean you no insult here, but you seem to lay an awful lot of trust in personal experience. That is not a reliable source of doctrine/belief. Modern man has been so influenced that way that it is difficult for many people to understand objective reasoning. Put your trust in God's word. It is objective truth. Study it, reading large portions at a time. Give it your intense desire to understand. What God tells us is not a hobby; "They are not just idle words for you—they are your life." (Deuteronomy 32:47)
 
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ldonjohn

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ldonjohn said:
Jesus answered and said unto them, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (KJV)

If believing in Christ is this 'work' that we must do, then that it is not saving faith, since Eph 2 says: "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast." Therefore, when it says it is the work of God that [we] believe, it is talking about a work that God does. No chicken-egg situation.

I mean you no insult here, but you seem to lay an awful lot of trust in personal experience. That is not a reliable source of doctrine/belief. Modern man has been so influenced that way that it is difficult for many people to understand objective reasoning. Put your trust in God's word. It is objective truth. Study it, reading large portions at a time. Give it your intense desire to understand. What God tells us is not a hobby; "They are not just idle words for you—they are your life." (Deuteronomy 32:47)
Seems that I need to add some clarity to my post. I was using Matthew 7:21-23 and John 6:28 to make a point about works vs belief. Jesus points out in Matthew 7:21-23 that many will trust their many wonderful works to get them into heaven, but He then says that He will say to them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Then, I used John 6:28, "Then they said unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Do you see that here they are asking what they should do, that they might work the works of God?" And in verse 29 Jesus told them "This is the work of God, that they believe on him whom he hath sent."

Then if you would go back and re-read my post you should see that in the very next paragraph I used Ephesians 2:8 to emphasize that we are saved by faith not by works.

The point I was attempting to make here is that Jesus is saying to them that there are NO works that they can do to gain eternal life, but that they simply "believe" in him. That's the POINT of they post.

Next, about your claim that I seem to be trusting in "personal experience" for my salvation, and not in God's Word, well nothing could be further from the truth. This "personal experience" is my testimony of how the Holy Spirit used God's Word to convict, convince, & persuade me to "believe" the Gospel. That was the moment I became a new creature in Christ. My faith is NOT in that experience; it IS in the Word of God; it IS in the finished work of Jesus at the cross, and His resurrection, and in the promise of His soon return. That is the Word of God, right? Actually, I was reading the Gospel of John when I "got it." Yes, the light came on, and I understood the Gospel message, which IS God's Word.

Seems that you missed this paragraph:

After several miserable years of struggling to find a peace and assurance that God had heard my prayers and saved me, but never finding any lasting peace/assurance, I began to earnestly study scriptures, hoping to find something that would show me how to have a "saving" faith; a faith that would give me a settled peace about the matter of my salvation. I found my answer in the Gospel of John, and in Romans chapter 10.

The Holy Spirit turned on the light for me and I "got it." My troubled soul was immediately filled with "relief" as the Holy Spirit convinced me that when Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose from that grave, that he did all that God required for my sins to be forgiven & for me to be saved. I saw that there was nothing "I" could do or needed to do to get God to save me, except to simply turn my "faith" from "me" and look to the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Hint: That is the Gospel presented in God's Word.


Again, you need to re-read my post and hopefully you will not overlook the many references I made to scriptures; Romans 10:13-14, John 6:28-29, John 6:37, Ephesians 2:8. Also, I did not use scriptures, but I did explain that the Holy Spirit convinced me that Jesus' finished work on the cross paid the penalty for my sin, and that my confidence/faith moved from myself to the message of the cross.

Finally, did you overlook my reference to how the Holy Spirit gave me light to see my way of of the spiritual darkness here:

The moment I "got it" the fear was gone, and my troubled soul was filled with "relief" as my confidence moved from "me" to what Jesus had already done for me on the cross. I didn't need to work up a sense of faith because the Holy Spirit had just brought me out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of the truth of the Gospel. This is the work of God; there is no salvation without the work of the Holy Spirit as He uses the Word of God to convict & convince a lost soul to believe the Gospel.

Regards,

John
 
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d taylor

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J. Wilbur Chapman tells the following true story of how D.L. Moody used John 5:24 to help him gain assurance of salvation:
I (J. Wilbur Chapman) was studying for the ministry, and I heard that D.L. Moody was to preach in Chicago. I went to hear him. Finally I got into his after meeting. I shall never forget the thrill that went through me when he came and sat down beside me as an inquirer. He asked me if I was a Christian. I said, “Mr. Moody, I am not sure whether I am a Christian or not.’
He very kindly took his Bible and opened it to the fifth chapter of John, and the twenty-fourth verse, which reads as follows: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and beleiveth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”
Suppose you had read it through for the first time, wouldn’t you think it was wonderful? I read it through, and he said, “Do you believe it?” I said, “Yes.” “Do you accept it?” I said, “Yes.” “Well, are you a Christian?”
“Mr. Moody, I sometimes think I am, and sometimes I am afraid I am not.”
He very kindly said, “Read it again.”
So I read it again, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and beleiveth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”Then he said, “Do you believe it?” I said, “Yes.” “Do you receive Him?” I said, “Yes.” “Well,” he said, “are you a Christian?”
I just started to say over again that sometimes I was afraid I was not, when the only time in all the years I knew him and loved him, he was sharp with me. He turned on me with his eyes flashing and said, “See here, whom are you doubting?”
Then I saw it for the first time, that when I was afraid I was not a Christian I was doubting God’s Word. I read it again with my eyes overflowing with tears.
Since that day I have had many sorrows and many joys, but never have I doubted for a moment that I was a Christian, because God said it.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Seems that I need to add some clarity to my post. I was using Matthew 7:21-23 and John 6:28 to make a point about works vs belief. Jesus points out in Matthew 7:21-23 that many will trust their many wonderful works to get them into heaven, but He then says that He will say to them "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Then, I used John 6:28, "Then they said unto him, what shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Do you see that here they are asking what they should do, that they might work the works of God?" And in verse 29 Jesus told them "This is the work of God, that they believe on him whom he hath sent."
Jesus OFTEN replied with plays on words, and deeper meaning than the audience intended or understood. This is one of those places. THEY thought they could do the works of God, without the Gospel Truth. They thought their supposed obedience would be enough. If they understood him, he did answer their question as asked, but also included the deeper meaning: That is, if one were able to believe, on his own, with the kind of faith that salvific belief entails, that would be good enough. But that is impossible for fallen man to do. Further, they employed the term, "work of God", which they supposed in themselves the responsible parties for accomplishing. Not so, as Jesus showed. This is God's work, and even when we 'do it', it is not us, but God doing it in or through us. Jesus made no implication that they are able to do it, but he did challenge them to live up to their assumptions—to their 'measure' (Matthew 7:2) And the rest of the context bears this out.
Then if you would go back and re-read my post you should see that in the very next paragraph I used Ephesians 2:8 to emphasize that we are saved by faith not by works.

The point I was attempting to make here is that Jesus is saying to them that there are NO works that they can do to gain eternal life, but that they simply "believe" in him. That's the POINT of they post.

Next, about your claim that I seem to be trusting in "personal experience" for my salvation, and not in God's Word, well nothing could be further from the truth. This "personal experience" is my testimony of how the Holy Spirit used God's Word to convict, convince, & persuade me to "believe" the Gospel. That was the moment I became a new creature in Christ. My faith is NOT in that experience; it IS in the Word of God; it IS in the finished work of Jesus at the cross, and His resurrection, and in the promise of His soon return. That is the Word of God, right? Actually, I was reading the Gospel of John when I "got it." Yes, the light came on, and I understood the Gospel message, which IS God's Word.

Seems that you missed this paragraph:

After several miserable years of struggling to find a peace and assurance that God had heard my prayers and saved me, but never finding any lasting peace/assurance, I began to earnestly study scriptures, hoping to find something that would show me how to have a "saving" faith; a faith that would give me a settled peace about the matter of my salvation. I found my answer in the Gospel of John, and in Romans chapter 10.

The Holy Spirit turned on the light for me and I "got it." My troubled soul was immediately filled with "relief" as the Holy Spirit convinced me that when Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose from that grave, that he did all that God required for my sins to be forgiven & for me to be saved. I saw that there was nothing "I" could do or needed to do to get God to save me, except to simply turn my "faith" from "me" and look to the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Hint: That is the Gospel presented in God's Word.


Again, you need to re-read my post and hopefully you will not overlook the many references I made to scriptures; Romans 10:13-14, John 6:28-29, John 6:37, Ephesians 2:8. Also, I did not use scriptures, but I did explain that the Holy Spirit convinced me that Jesus' finished work on the cross paid the penalty for my sin, and that my confidence/faith moved from myself to the message of the cross.

Finally, did you overlook my reference to how the Holy Spirit gave me light to see my way of of the spiritual darkness here:

The moment I "got it" the fear was gone, and my troubled soul was filled with "relief" as my confidence moved from "me" to what Jesus had already done for me on the cross. I didn't need to work up a sense of faith because the Holy Spirit had just brought me out of the darkness of unbelief into the light of the truth of the Gospel. This is the work of God; there is no salvation without the work of the Holy Spirit as He uses the Word of God to convict & convince a lost soul to believe the Gospel.
My remarks were intended toward @Codi Weston with your verse quote as reference concerning what was being discussed. My bad, for not being more clear, myself. But even on rereading here what you have copied, I see what I was talking about. I'm not talking about you trusting in your experience for your salvation. I'm talking about one using their person experience as evidence about how things happen —i.e. as evidence by which Doctrine can be derived— instead of going by what Scripture says.

Here you lay out a sequence that is easy to read into Scriptures, specially with a modern worldview. I am currently engaged in debate with one who claims to be Calvinistic, (so was Arminius), but he is in fact, Arminian in his 'way of salvation' doctrine. He claims 2 things, which your narrative here does also,
1. That God convinces the lost before he is 'found'. The Arminians call this, 'prevenient grace'; he calls it 'initial faith'.
2. That this being convinced is what gives one the belief (faith/prevenient grace) from which all subsequent virtues and blessings come, including that the new believer later becomes born again by the indwelling Spirit of God.

I do not deny that your experience of it is valid. The problem is in identifying what is going on there. Most churches teach pretty much what you say here, as though the Salvation Experience is in a class all its own; and, while there is truth to that, the Spirit indwelling and indeed raising the [spiritually] dead to life can even go unnoticed at first by the person in whom the Spirit has taken up residence. THAT is the 'moment', the fact, of salvation.

The thrill and joy of submission, the relief of repentance, and the understanding —the 'getting it'—, the surge of passion found in learning of our magnificent God, the sorrow at our own rebellion —the 'old man' still there until the day we die— and the pain of separation from closeness with Christ —all these are about fellowship, not the moment of salvation. It can be simultaneous, this joy, or it can come subsequently. But it is not we who bring it about. God does it. Salvation is entirely by grace.

Our salvation does not depend upon us. But if we do not believe, do not repent, do not obey, we do not belong to him, and are not born again.
 
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J. Wilbur Chapman tells the following true story of how D.L. Moody used John 5:24 to help him gain assurance of salvation:
I (J. Wilbur Chapman) was studying for the ministry, and I heard that D.L. Moody was to preach in Chicago. I went to hear him. Finally I got into his after meeting. I shall never forget the thrill that went through me when he came and sat down beside me as an inquirer. He asked me if I was a Christian. I said, “Mr. Moody, I am not sure whether I am a Christian or not.’
He very kindly took his Bible and opened it to the fifth chapter of John, and the twenty-fourth verse, which reads as follows: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and beleiveth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”
Suppose you had read it through for the first time, wouldn’t you think it was wonderful? I read it through, and he said, “Do you believe it?” I said, “Yes.” “Do you accept it?” I said, “Yes.” “Well, are you a Christian?”
“Mr. Moody, I sometimes think I am, and sometimes I am afraid I am not.”
He very kindly said, “Read it again.”
So I read it again, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my word, and beleiveth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.”Then he said, “Do you believe it?” I said, “Yes.” “Do you receive Him?” I said, “Yes.” “Well,” he said, “are you a Christian?”
I just started to say over again that sometimes I was afraid I was not, when the only time in all the years I knew him and loved him, he was sharp with me. He turned on me with his eyes flashing and said, “See here, whom are you doubting?”
Then I saw it for the first time, that when I was afraid I was not a Christian I was doubting God’s Word. I read it again with my eyes overflowing with tears.
Since that day I have had many sorrows and many joys, but never have I doubted for a moment that I was a Christian, because God said it.
Does your obedience render the evidence that indeed you believe it? Are you able to trust your own belief?
 
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d taylor

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Does your obedience render the evidence that indeed you believe it? Are you able to trust your own belief?
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Obedience does not prove belief. Belief is simply being convinced something is true. In the case of eternal life, it is being convinced that God's promise is true. That anyone who believes in Jesus for eternal life has received the free gift of Eternal Life.
 
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ldonjohn

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Obedience does not prove belief. Belief is simply being convinced something is true. In the case of eternal life, it is being convinced that God's promise is true. That anyone who believes in Jesus for eternal life has received the free gift of Eternal Life.
Yes! Thank you, d taylor.
 
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Obedience does not prove belief. Belief is simply being convinced something is true. In the case of eternal life, it is being convinced that God's promise is true. That anyone who believes in Jesus for eternal life has received the free gift of Eternal Life.
Obedience apart from belief is compliance only. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

You can believe without love? So can the devil.
 
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