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What about those who haven’t heard?

Peter Adeshina Babalola

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Awesome piece! Thanks
 
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Halbhh

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Interesting. More direct and complete are the passages in post #24, 25 above.
 
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Halbhh

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An even more direct passage to include is Romans chap 2 verses 6-16.
 
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Halbhh

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Paul wrote to answer exactly this very question (exactly even) in Romans chapter 2, verses 6-16. Romans 2:6 Context: who "will pay back to everyone according to their works:"

And it helps for the next question we wonder, if some (however few) may do fairly well without knowing the gospel, and many won't, then what about young children, and this one is answered by...let me just point above to the (short) post #25. (Some will then wonder about if there is another way for the dead who never heard of the gospel, see post #24)
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hello, and welcome to CF! We are glad that you've joined us.



Indeed, Romans 2 would seem to speak directly to the question.

Again, welcome to CF! Please feel free to ask if you have any questions about the forums.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Joseph, thank you for your thoughtful interaction with this thread. I'll share a few thoughts about some of what you wrote.

This is definitely one of the questions that many non-believers bring up when I have a conversation about faith with them. This also goes hand in hand with the question "Do babies go to heaven?"

First (in order, and probably in importance), I thank God that you are having these types of discussions with unbelievers. I pray that God will draw them to His love in Christ through you. I pray that He will give you wisdom in how to respond to the difficult questions they ask and that like Christ you will be filled with grace and truth (John 1:14). While I go on to critique some other things you wrote, that critique is probably less important than my encouragement and prayer for you to keep gracefully and truthfully talking with unbelievers. May the Lord win many of them through you!


Actually, there were non-Jewish people in the Old Testament who were saved through faith. Anyone who had true faith in the true God would have been saved. This certainly included some before the Jewish people (Noah, Enoch), and some who were outside but joined them (Rahab, Ruth). It very likely included some of the people who sincerely repented in Ninevah when Jonah preached (if they did not sincerely repent, at least some of the, why did God relent and not destroy the city?). It likely included many others who heard about the God of Israel and truly trusted Him.

Of course, even these people could only be saved because God knew Jesus would later die for their sins:

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-- to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished--
26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

You're main point, "Without Jesus everything would be meaningless" is well stated and entirely true!


When I first read the paragraph above I thought something like, "Wow, this guy is in trouble if he doesn't derive his opinion from the bible." But then rereading what you wrote, I think it is more likely that you meant to say something like this (correct me if I misinterpret you):

If I based my opinion only on those verses which most directly and explicitly address the issue, I would believe that those who don't believe in Jesus will most definitely go to hell. However, when I consider broad principles the Bible also teaches, like God's mercy and grace, I come to a different conclusion.

Is that what you meant? While I don't agree with your "different conclusion" I'm also trying to gracefully understand your reasoning.


Amen! God took the initiative and came to us. Amazing grace! And this does make Christianity far different from other belief systems. Joseph, what we agree on is more important, I feel, than our points of disagreement.


Yes, God has a plan for us. My main point in the OP is that God's revealed plan for those who have not heard is the Great Commission, i.e., for us to go and tell them, even at great cost.

A painting could never understand the painter. An invention could never understand the inventor. So for us to even attempt to understand or out reason our Creator's ways is not the way to approach our faith.

True. Doesn't this mean we should focus on what God has revealed to us (the Great Commission) and not on speculations about other ways for the unreached to be saved? Especially when those other "ways" are nowhere stated in the Bible and in fact seem to undermine the logic of Biblical passages like the one in Romans.


This is where I most disagree with what you wrote. People only become children of God (in the saving sense) by hearing the gospel and believing it in their hearts. God's only revealed plan for those who haven't had a chance to hear is for us to go and tell them!

God Bless,

Joseph

God bless you, too! While I disagree with some specific things you wrote, again what we agree on is far more important. May God bless you as you continue to shine His light in this dark and needy world.
 
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Rescued One

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“Will not the judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25). Explain to me why my four living siblings and mother don't believe and don't want to.
 
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I would state such people who have not heard (and i have never met any yet) would come before the Lord and Jesus would make a judgment concerning them. I would add that nothing is hidden from Him. To sum it up I neither state they are saved or condemned but Jesus will make a judgment concerning them.

Jesus=>if I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
 
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Halbhh

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Yes. We must include Romans 2, v 6-16 though, and the helpful Romans 5:13 (not the only verse saying this also).
 
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Grandliseur

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Hello, and welcome to CF! We are glad that you've joined us.




Indeed, Romans 2 would seem to speak directly to the question.

Again, welcome to CF! Please feel free to ask if you have any questions about the forums.
No questions, but a certain relief not to have to deal with the extreme atheists here. There seems to be many interesting questions at the moment.
 
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JacksBratt

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Interesting. More direct and complete are the passages in post #24, 25 above.
I agree about children who don't reach an age of accountability. And, those that don't, due to mental issues, ever reach an mental state of intelligence or cognitive ability, will be granted salvation.

However, I believe that anyone with the intellectual ability to understand the gospel, and who have heard it... will be held accountable for the choice they make in accepting or rejecting Christ for who He is.

Those that, for whatever reason, never heard of, or could have known of Christ...they will be still held without excuse.
 
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Halbhh

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Exactly. -- fair Justice. The exact wording of
Rom 2. Not anything other.

And also so will we, if we don't do as He says.
 
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dqhall

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There are opportunities for those who have not heard the Gospel. They may also read it online, in books or watch videos. There are people as far away as the Himalayas who know about Jesus. Google Translate is being used to translate messages as its quality has improved. A Brazilian pastor without English fluency was writing to me using Google translate. There are programs to translate audio recordings and live phone calls from language to language. Barriers to communication are being removed.

Jesus was not able to give the full Gospel to all he met. To some he was only able to speak in parables that people of his day did not recognize as Bible scripture. The chief priests were seeking to bring blasphemy charges against him if they could catch him claiming to be God's son or the Messiah.

Jesus was sent to the Jews. His disciples lived to carry the message to Gentiles.
John 10:16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd."

As for Jesus preaching to the dead, he preached to Lazarus who was presumed to be rotting in his tomb.
John 11:43 When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"

I suppose it is better to focus on today's activities than waste much time dreaming about activities after death. Benjamin Franklin taught, "One today is worth two tomorrows."
 
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~Anastasia~

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No questions, but a certain relief not to have to deal with the extreme atheists here. There seems to be many interesting questions at the moment.
There are many forum areas. The extreme (and mostly less extreme) atheists are here, but areas are limited by who may post and what topics may be discussed. General theology (here) is open to any and all Christians so there will be a wide variety and much disagreement over doctrines, but you're right that atheists may not post here. There are areas that allow them so folks can have whatever sort of discussion they like, somewhere.

Not meaning to derail the thread though. Just feel free to ask if you need help.

God be with you!
 
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Mark Corbett

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“Will not the judge of all the earth do right?” (Genesis 18:25). Explain to me why my four living siblings and mother don't believe and don't want to.

Of course I don't know why your siblings and mother don't believe. But I do pray that God will work powerfully to bring them to Christ.
 
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bling

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Does telling Christians: “You are personally responsible for teaching the lost and if any are lost it is your fault.” help?

The reason we should go and teach others is because it is our privilege and honor to take the gospel message to those who have not heard it. Christ has commanded we do this, but that is because it helps us grow and value what we have been given. We have the debt of being taught by others ourselves.

When we talk about people being lost and saved we have to keep in mind: “God judges the hearts of people and it is his choice and not ours”.

There are those that have never reached adult maturity to the point they are responsible for their sins so they would be in a safe condition, not needing salvation, but would also not have fulfilled their earthly objective.

If a sincere nonbeliever who has never heard of Christ has given up on self to relieve him of the burden in his conscience created by his hurting others in the past (sin) and turns in hope to the benevolent Creator for help, will God help him?
 
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Mark Corbett

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Thanks for sharing some helpful thoughts!


Yes, praise God for technology. But also, please remember that there are MANY (many millions) of unreached who speak languages in which the gospel is not available, or available in an extremely limited way which is unlikely to reach many of the speakers. It looks like google translator currently works for about 100 languages. There are about 6,900 languages in the world. There is still a great and urgent need for believers to go and live where these languages are spoken, learn the language, love the people, and share God's truth.

I have seen some attempts at "shortcuts" to the hard work and long commitment of learning languages as you live among and love those who speak them. The shortcuts tend to be a colossal waste of time and money. I'm not saying that technology does not help in this task. By God's grace it can help a lot. But it cannot replace the role of Christians learning and ministering in the languages of the unreached.
 
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Mark Corbett

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Thanks for sharing some thoughts and raising some good questions and issues. I'll respond to a few of your points, apologizing that I may not have time to respond to all of them.

Does telling Christians: “You are personally responsible for teaching the lost and if any are lost it is your fault.” help?

I think God actually does something like this in Ezekiel 33:1-6, which ends like this:

NIV Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone's life, that person's life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.'
I think the same principle would imply that we are accountable if we fail to do what we can to reach the unreached with the gospel. Paul seemed to feel this keenly:

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:16b Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!



Those are indeed excellent reasons and motivations to share the gospel with those who have not heard it. But they are not the ONLY good motivations.

If a sincere nonbeliever who has never heard of Christ has given up on self to relieve him of the burden in his conscience created by his hurting others in the past (sin) and turns in hope to the benevolent Creator for help, will God help him?

There is actually a great example in the Bible which is very similar to what you are describing above. Cornelius is described like this:

NIV Acts 10:2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.

God DOES help Cornelius. But God does NOT bypass His revealed method of the gospel being preached. God sends Peter with the gospel to Cornelius. I do not doubt that God might intervene in many ways and work powerfully to get the gospel to people who are seeking Him. But I see no evidence that they can be saved in any other way.
 
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fhansen

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If a person is saved, they're saved by Jesus, regardless of whether they've heard His name or not. I think we're all graced in one way or another, and a principle found in Luke 12:48 applies here:
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."

And some demonstrate faith by their actions, even where formal knowledge is rudimentary.
 
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