What about Hyperdulia?

[Frogster]

What are your experiences? Do you feel closer to Mary?

 

[Eucharisted]

Veneration of Mary is the honor due to Mary. It's not about being closer to Mary, it's about a child's respect for his mother. Think of the relationship of a son to his mother and a mother to her son and you'll understand hyperdulia.

Hyperdulia is found in Judaism where the Jews associated the Messiah's Mother with Jerusalem and Israel, i.e., she would be the Mother of Israel because she is the Mother of the Messiah.

In addition to the familia sense of veneration, there is likewise the inseparable regal sense, because the Mother of the Messiah is the Queen of the Messiah, via the Davidic model of royalty, since the Messiah is Ben David (the son of David).

Because of her association with Jerusalem, the belief in a New Jerusalem which would replace Jerusalem after the city's destruction, the awaited victory of Israel over its enemies, and the royalty of the Messiah and his family, the Mother of the Messiah was believed to assume into Heaven like Moses and Elijah and there be crowned Queen of the universal Kingdom of the Messiah.

 

[Frogster]

Veneration of Mary is the honor due to Mary. It's not about being closer to Mary, it's about a child's respect for his mother. Think of the relationship of a son to his mother and a mother to her son and you'll understand hyperdulia.

Hyperdulia is found in Judaism where the Jews associated the Messiah's Mother with Jerusalem and Israel, i.e., she would be the Mother of Israel because she is the Mother of the Messiah.

In addition to the familia sense of veneration, there is likewise the inseparable regal sense, because the Mother of the Messiah is the Queen of the Messiah, via the Davidic model of royalty, since the Messiah is Ben David (the son of David).

Because of her association with Jerusalem, the belief in a New Jerusalem which would replace Jerusalem after the city's destruction, the awaited victory of Israel over its enemies, and the royalty of the Messiah and his family, the Mother of the Messiah was believed to assume into Heaven like Moses and Elijah and there be crowned Queen of the universal Kingdom of the Messiah.

Why does Paul call Sarah our mother in Gal 4, and not Mary?
Also, why no hyperdulia for Sarah? She is our mother.

 

[laconicstudent]

Also, why no hyperdulia for Sarah?

What are you talking about?

Sarah - OrthodoxWiki

"The holy and Righteous Sarah is a key figure in the Lord's Covenant with Israel. She was married to Abraham, the Old Testament Patriarch; eventually she bore him a son, Isaac, though she had previously been barren. Sarah died at 127 years of age. She is included in the commemoration of the ancestors of the Lord on the Sunday of the Forefathers in December. "

​

 

[DD2008]

What are your experiences? Do you feel closer to Mary?

Personally I was convicted of idolaty for praying "through" Mary so I repented and stopped it. There is no practical difference between hyperdulia and latria. Prayer is a form of worship that belongs to God alone.

 

[laconicstudent]

What are your experiences? Do you feel closer to Mary?

Yes, and to her Son as well as a consequence.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

What about Hyperdulia?

I had to look it up.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number G1397 matches the Greek δουλεία (douleia), which occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

1397. douleia doo-li'-ah from 1398; slavery (ceremonially or figuratively):--bondage.

Veneration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Veneration (Latin veneratio, Greek δουλεία, douleia), or veneration of saints, is a special act of honoring a saint: a dead person who has been identified as singular in the traditions of the religion. It is practiced by the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic Churches, Anglican Communion, and Lutheran Church. Veneration is often shown outwardly by respectfully bowing or making the sign of the cross before a saint's icon, relics, or statue. These items may also be kissed.

In Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran theology, veneration is a type of honor distinct from the adoration due to God alone. According to Deacon Dr. Mark Miravelle, of Franciscan University of Steubenville, the English word "worship" has been associated with both veneration and adoration:


In Protestantism, except Lutheran and Anglican churches, veneration is sometimes considered to amount to the heresy of idolatry, and the related practice of canonization amounts to the heresy of apotheosis. Protestant theology usually denies that any real distinction between veneration and worship can be made, and claims that the practice of veneration distracts the Christian soul from its true object, the worship of God.

 

[judechild]

To answer your first part: when I pray to Mary, I pay her the honor that is due her, which is the same honor that Jesus gave to her; I do not worship her because she is the highest of all created beings, yes, but not God. I also ask for her prayers for me; she is as close a human to Christ as anyone ever has been, and so I ask her prayers because of her close relationship to God.

Why does Paul call Sarah our mother in Gal 4, and not Mary?

As to this, one would also have to ask "Why does St. James call Abraham our father, and not God?" James 2:21 says "Was not Abraham our father justified..."

It certainly makes sense, considering that Paul is speaking of the Convents in Galatians 4:21-31, that he would say "the Jerusalem above... is our mother" (v. 26). This mother is represented by Sarah "'you barren one'" (v. 27) to show that we are within a New Convent.

Also, why no hyperdulia for Sarah? She is our mother.

Hyper-dulia is considered the honor to the greatest of all created beings; Mary. We certainly do honor Sarah, but to give Abraham the same honor as God (worship) would be entirely inappropiate; as would giving Sarah hyper-dulia.

 

[laconicstudent]

In Protestantism, except Lutheran and Anglican churches, veneration is sometimes considered to amount to the heresy of idolatry, and the related practice of canonization amounts to the heresy of apotheosis. Protestant theology usually denies that any real distinction between veneration and worship can be made, and claims that the practice of veneration distracts the Christian soul from its true object, the worship of God.

I wonder how those Protestants in the U.K. handle court, specifically coronations and other investitures.

The Coronation of Queen Elizabeth II


"Then shall the Archbishop kiss the Queen's right hand. After which the Duke of Edinburgh shall ascend the steps of the Throne, and having taken off his coronet, shall kneel down before her Majesty, and placing his hands between the Queen's shall pronounce the words of Homage, saying:

I, Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
do become your liege man of life and limb,
and of earthly worship;
and faith and truth will I bear unto you,
to live and die, against all manner of folks.
So help me God.





And arising, he shall touch the Crown upon her Majesty's head and kiss her Majesty's left cheek.


In like manner shall the Duke of Gloucester and the Duke of Kent severally do their homage. After which the Senior Peer of each degree (of the Dukes first by themselves, and so of the Marquesses, Earls, Viscounts, and Barons in that order) shall ascend the steps of the Throne and, having first removed his coronet, shall kneel before her Majesty and place his hands between the Queen's: and all the peers of his degree, having put off their coronets, shall kneel in their places and shall say with him:




I, N. Duke, or Earl, etc., of N.
do become your liege man of life and limb,
and of earthly worship;
and faith and truth will I bear unto you,
to live and die, against all manner of folks.
So help me God."






hmmmmmm.

 

[Eucharisted]

Why does Paul call Sarah our mother in Gal 4, and not Mary?

Also, why no hyperdulia for Sarah? She is our mother.

Where does he call Sarah our mother?

As for hyperdulia, see the second point in my first reply.

 

[Frogster]

What are you talking about?

Sarah - OrthodoxWiki

"The holy and Righteous Sarah is a key figure in the Lord's Covenant with Israel. She was married to Abraham, the Old Testament Patriarch; eventually she bore him a son, Isaac, though she had previously been barren. Sarah died at 127 years of age. She is included in the commemoration of the ancestors of the Lord on the Sunday of the Forefathers in December. "

​

If Abraham is our spiritual father, what would Sarah be?


Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; [5] she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”


28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.


31So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.

 

[Frogster]

Personally I was convicted of idolaty for praying "through" Mary so I repented and stopped it. There is no practical difference between hyperdulia and latria. Prayer is a form of worship that belongs to God alone.

Me too, I was raised Catholic until learned more.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Personally I was convicted of idolaty for praying "through" Mary so I repented and stopped it. There is no practical difference between hyperdulia and latria. Prayer is a form of worship that belongs to God alone.

Now personally I don't pray to particular saints, and I think there are a number of good reasons for not doing so. But this particular argument has always thrown me off.

That is, unless you're part of a quietist like the Mennonites, Quakers, Amish, Hutterites, or such some.

Because the absolute refusal to pay homage to the saints for the reason that there is no distinction between veneration and worship demands the continuation of that all the way down to saluting the flag of one's country.

This holds especially true low church Protestants without any traditional liturgical form of worship, for whom the most respect and liturgical actions of homage occur in complete non-religious settings (saluting, standing for the national anthem, etc.).

So it seems to me that people are quite capable of making the distinction when that perennial boogieman, the Catholic Church, isn't involved.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Me too, I was raised Catholic until learned more.

Well, I was raised Protestant until I learned more.

Now I'm happily Via Media.

 

[Frogster]

To answer your first part: when I pray to Mary, I pay her the honor that is due her, which is the same honor that Jesus gave to her; I do not worship her because she is the highest of all created beings, yes, but not God. I also ask for her prayers for me; she is as close a human to Christ as anyone ever has been, and so I ask her prayers because of her close relationship to God.

Why is Mary the highest of all created beings? Chapter and verse? Did you know that ALL humans, as of now are below angels in the creation order? Mary was part of the Adamic creation, where all flesh is flesh. Sorry, but that is scripture.


Hebrews 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,

As to this, one would also have to ask "Why does St. James call Abraham our father, and not God?" James 2:21 says "Was not Abraham our father justified..."

It certainly makes sense, considering that Paul is speaking of the Convents in Galatians 4:21-31, that he would say "the Jerusalem above... is our mother" (v. 26). This mother is represented by Sarah "'you barren one'" (v. 27) to show that we are within a New Convent.

Yet Scripture calls Sarah our mother, not Mary. Why?

Hyper-dulia is considered the honor to the greatest of all created beings; Mary. We certainly do honor Sarah, but to give Abraham the same honor as God (worship) would be entirely inappropiate; as would giving Sarah hyper-dulia.

Galatians says..born of a woman in 4:4, not anything more than that.

It does not at all bring out her "higher creation status".

 

[Frogster]

Well, I was raised Protestant until I learned more.

Now I'm happily Via Media.

Take the journey back home. EWTN..NTWE

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Take the journey back home. EWTN..NTWE

 

[Frogster]

Yes, and to her Son as well as a consequence.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

You have direct access, you don't need a go-between. It says Christ in you, not Mary in you, as your hope of glory.

 

[DD2008]

Now personally I don't pray to particular saints, and I think there are a number of good reasons for not doing so. But this particular argument has always thrown me off.

That is, unless you're part of a quietist like the Mennonites, Quakers, Amish, Hutterites, or such some.

Because the absolute refusal to pay homage to the saints for the reason that there is no distinction between veneration and worship demands the continuation of that all the way down to saluting the flag of one's country.

This holds especially true low church Protestants without any traditional liturgical form of worship, for whom the most respect and liturgical actions of homage occur in complete non-religious settings (saluting, standing for the national anthem, etc.).

So it seems to me that people are quite capable of making the distinction when that perennial boogieman, the Catholic Church, isn't involved.

No argument. Just conviction. I can't pray in faith to dead people or angels to pray for me. God is my father. I pray to him just like he showed us to do in the scriptures. There is no scriptural example of anybody other than idolaters praying to anything other than God. John went to bend the knee to an Angel and this is what he was told:

Revelation 22:8-9 KJV
[8] And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
[9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Revelation 19:9-10 KJV
[9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

I can't do it. I won't do it. It's not right.

 

[Frogster]

At least you are a frank Pavone Republican.