What about Hyperdulia?

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

No argument. Just conviction. I can't pray in faith to dead people or angels to pray for me. God is my father. I pray to him just like he showed us to do in the scriptures. There is no scriptural example of anybody other than idolaters praying to anything other than God. John went to bend the knee to an Angel and this is what he was told:

Revelation 22:8-9 KJV
[8] And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
[9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Revelation 19:9-10 KJV
[9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

I can't do it. I won't do it. It's not right.

Firmly acknowledged and greatly respected. You'll get no further argument from me on the matter.

At least you are a frank Pavone Republican.

To the core. (Ha, honestly, I had to look up Frank Pavone, but you're right on)

 

[Frogster]

I though you were Cath til I saw the Luther icon. I meant Father Frank Pavone, Repup activist type, good guy....Anyway, I hear you guys are pretty similar.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I though you were Cath til I saw the Luther icon. I meant Father Frank Pavone, Repup activist type, good guy....Anyway, I hear you guys are pretty similar.

Ha, yes. Catholics and Lutherans look pretty similar, and my brand of Lutheranism tends to lean more Catholic than Protestant.

However, on this issue, Lutherans side with Protestants. And, of course, it was Lutherans who came up with the phrase "justification by grace alone, through faith alone." And that's our final word on salvation. By grace alone, through faith alone.

 

[Frogster]

Ha, yes. Catholics and Lutherans look pretty similar, and my brand of Lutheranism tends to lean more Catholic than Protestant.

However, on this issue, Lutherans side with Protestants. And, of course, it was Lutherans who came up with the phrase "justification by grace alone, through faith alone." And that's our final word on salvation. By grace alone, through faith alone.

Actually I read that a Catholic theologian,..I think Aquinas (I think) was also into faith alone?

 

[judechild]

Why is Mary the highest of all created beings? Chapter and verse?

She's the only person to have been named, not just called, "full of Grace." But in addition... if you could create your own mother, how "perfect" would you make her? She was raising God Himself; she was given the necessary graces for such a role.

Did you know that ALL humans, as of now are below angels in the creation order? Mary was part of the Adamic creation, where all flesh is flesh. Sorry, but that is scripture.

No sir, it is your interpretation of scripture. What is it that makes a person below an angel? Is it only legalism: we have bodies, therefore, we are below angels?

Hebrews 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;

I'm sure you know that this is within the context of Christ's humility in accepting the incarnation: "'you crowned Him with glory and honor, subjecting all things under His feet.' In 'subjecting' all things to Him, He left nothing not 'subject to Him..." (Hebrews 2:7-8). Not that, heaven forbid, Jesus has even truely been below the angels in power.

you have crowned him with glory and honor,Yet Scripture calls Sarah our mother, not Mary. Why?

I believe I attempted to answer that. Sarah and Hagar represent the two covenants "these women represent two covenants. One was from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar... it cooresponds to the present Jerusalem" (Galatians 4:24). But Sarah represents a new covenent "But the Jerusalem above is freeborn, and she is our mother. / For it is written: 'Rejoice, you barren one...'" (vs. 27,28). Obviously, neither Hagar nor Sarah is actually Jerusalem, it is an allegory; it would make no sense to say "Hagar... cooresponds to the present Jerusalem. And Mary cooresponds to the new Jerusalem."

Again, St. James calls Abraham our father... why? St. Paul does the same "but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked..." (Romans 4:12). They are not saying Abraham is God; they also are not saying Abraham is our father, and God is not. The same can hold true in other places: that St. Paul is making a point by explaining typology does not exclude Mary's maternal role in the life of the Christian.

Galatians says..born of a woman in 4:4, not anything more than that.

It does not at all bring out her "higher creation status".

And the Archangel says "Hail, Full of Grace, Blessed are you among women."

 

[Frogster]

Ha, yes. Catholics and Lutherans look pretty similar, and my brand of Lutheranism tends to lean more Catholic than Protestant.

However, on this issue, Lutherans side with Protestants. And, of course, it was Lutherans who came up with the phrase "justification by grace alone, through faith alone." And that's our final word on salvation. By grace alone, through faith alone.

ps, do u do the hyperdulia thing too?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

What are your experiences? Do you feel closer to Mary?

Yes.

Our loving Blessed Mother.

 

[Frogster]

She's the only person to have been named, not just called, "full of Grace." But in addition... if you could create your own mother, how "perfect" would you make her? She was raising God Himself; she was given the necessary graces for such a role.

Not just mary.


Judges 5:24 (Show me Judges 5)
“Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed.

No sir, it is your interpretation of scripture. What is it that makes a person below an angel? Is it only legalism: we have bodies, therefore, we are below angels?

The scrpture is clear, humans are below angels, that means Mary was too. She was in the Adamic creation too. No? It says ALL sin in Adam.

I'm sure you know that this is within the context of Christ's humility in accepting the incarnation: "'you crowned Him with glory and honor, subjecting all things under His feet.' In 'subjecting' all things to Him, He left nothing not 'subject to Him..." (Hebrews 2:7-8).

True, but the previous text was about humans though.

I believe I attempted to answer that. Sarah and Hagar represent the two covenants "these women represent two covenants. One was from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar... it cooresponds to the present Jerusalem" (Galatians 4:24). But Sarah represents a new covenent "But the Jerusalem above is freeborn, and she is our mother. / For it is written: 'Rejoice, you barren one...'" (vs. 27,28). Obviously, neither Hagar nor Sarah is actually Jerusalem, it is an allegory; it would make no sense to say "Hagar... cooresponds to the present Jerusalem. And Mary cooresponds to the new Jerusalem."

Again, St. James calls Abraham our father... why? St. Paul does the same "but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked..." (Romans 4:12). They are not saying Abraham is God; they also are not saying Abraham is our father, and God is not. The same can hold true in other places: that St. Paul is making a point by explaining typology does not exclude Mary's maternal role in the life of the Christian.

Sorry..then Why did Paul forget Mary, if she wa known as OUR mother back then? It says Sarah.

And the Archangel says "Hail, Full of Grace, Blessed are you among women."

Again....Judges 5:24
“Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed.

 

[Frogster]

Yes.

Our loving Blessed Mother.

I thought Paul said he did not know anyone after the flesh, in 2 Corinthians 5?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Personally I was convicted of idolaty for praying "through" Mary so I repented and stopped it. There is no practical difference between hyperdulia and latria. Prayer is a form of worship that belongs to God alone.

So saith Thou, the former Catholic. You fulfill the maxim, rather lamentably: "Familiarity breeds contempt."

This is spiritual difference. Your obstinate refusal to recognise that, due to your own embitterment against the Church of Rome, is why.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I thought Paul said he did not know anyone after the flesh, in 2 Corinthians 5?

What the heck are you talking about?

I was replying, to your original post. Besides, I believe in Holy Scripture viewed always within the context of Holy Tradition. Holy Scripture is a part of Holy Tradition; the two are inseparable; they cannot be viewed apart from one another.

Hence, I am not beholded to Sola Scriptura arguments; where one replies: "Where Is That in the Bible?!" The Holy Catholic Church has always aboded by Holy Tradition and Holy Scripture viewed within the context of the same.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Alas, I seem to have derailed the thread.

Here, let me get it back on track...

Veneration of Mary is the honor due to Mary. It's not about being closer to Mary, it's about a child's respect for his mother. Think of the relationship of a son to his mother and a mother to her son and you'll understand hyperdulia.

Hyperdulia is found in Judaism where the Jews associated the Messiah's Mother with Jerusalem and Israel, i.e., she would be the Mother of Israel because she is the Mother of the Messiah.

In addition to the familia sense of veneration, there is likewise the inseparable regal sense, because the Mother of the Messiah is the Queen of the Messiah, via the Davidic model of royalty, since the Messiah is Ben David (the son of David).

Because of her association with Jerusalem, the belief in a New Jerusalem which would replace Jerusalem after the city's destruction, the awaited victory of Israel over its enemies, and the royalty of the Messiah and his family, the Mother of the Messiah was believed to assume into Heaven like Moses and Elijah and there be crowned Queen of the universal Kingdom of the Messiah.

Excellent argument. I subscribe to it myself, except on some of the details at the bottom, namely, the assumption, although I do not deny the piety of it or condemn those who hold it as pious opinion. My objection is purely on the grounds that one must believe it in order to be in communion with a billion Catholics. It seems to me that whatever the merits of and safeguards built into Vatican I's statement on papal infallibility, the two 'infallible' of the pope- both on Mary- served no purpose than to institutionalize personal piety and thus put up further barriers between the church and its erstwhile sympathizes (myself first among them).

But I digress.

Your excellent argument, as you state it, does not show (because it cannot show?) why, however much we acknowledge and perhaps even venerate the Theotokos as the Queen of Heaven, we ought to pray for her intercession in various matters. Prayer venerating her is one thing, but prayer for her intercession is quite another.

Now, Scott Hahn argues in his book Hail, Holy Queen (which I thoroughly enjoyed, by the way) along these precise lines. He writes, in particular, that the Davidic Queen-Mother of Israel received intercessions on behalf of the Israelite people and took these petitions before the king. As with Bathsheba (an unfortunate example susceptible to Protestant polemic, much like the Queen of Heaven in light of Jer 44), so with the Blessed Virgin.

Now, I'm going to skip over a common Protestant argument even though I think it holds some weight. That argument is that we have direct access to God the Father through the theoanthropos and sole mediator, Jesus Christ. I would merely note two things about it: first, contra the Protestants, the Catholics do hold that Christ is the sole mediator, but make a distinction between mediator and intermediary (the merits of that distinction, which has implications for everything from prayers to the saints to the nature of the three-fold ordinate, can be explored elsewhere). But second, contra the Catholics, I would note that, Jesus Christ, truly hearing our prayers, and the Father, truly receiving them from the Son, does undercut the pragmatic nature of the ancient Israelite arrangement. After all, aggrieved persons could not always petition before the king, so the queen-mother was sought after as an intercessor precisely because the king did not have their ear (he was, after all, busy being a king and being entertained by his harem). This pragmatic arrangement is severely undercut by the most basic affirmation about the incarnation: that in Christ all the fullness of divinity- including omniscience- dwells bodily.

Well, that was less of a skipping over than I would have liked...

Nonetheless, I want to grant you that however much the position of a queen-mother intercessor is unnecessary, the arrangement may still stand. Standing, then, are we able to pray to the Queen of Heaven?

Now, the other Protestant argument that I am not just going to skip over, but expressly deny, is that the saints cannot hear us. Well, the saints in general may very well be unable to hear us. Who knows? But if the queen-mother's role as royal intercessor for the aggrieved still stands, than it only stands to logic that she can hear us.

However, this is the limits of what we can know by Scripture and logic, and however much I love holy tradition, that rarely convinces me on a matter, especially when the development of a tradition is not genuinely ecumenical and is fairly late.

So how far has the logic taken us?

First, I contend that this logic only really takes us to corporate intercessory prayer. Individual prayers are unwarranted by the reasoning.

Second, I contend that these corporate prayers are only applicable (perhaps even only heard!) within the context of Mary's role as the Davidic king, and therefore only in the cases of the specific, corporate grievances of the people of God.

Thus prayers for Marian intercession, inasmuch as they should be practiced, should take the form of public and corporate liturgical prayers for corporate and particular grievances, namely, disasters that have befallen Christian communities, especially persecution. That is all I find warranted by the argument.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

I explained this Catholic belief surrounding Doulia on another forum before; Christian Fellowship forums. Here is my post:

Respectfully; I would contend that the praying to the saints is NOT idolatry. The gentleman in video, though I am sure is very much sincere, does in fact have some misconceptions regarding "Praying to the 'saints'."

Let me clarify, when Catholics say that they pray to the saints, what they are saying, is that they are "asking the saint to pray for them on their behalf." No where has this ever meant by Catholics to imply that we give them worship. In terminology, particularly of the English language, the verb "to pray," signifies or means, "to ask;" therefore, with such a meaning, prayer thus does not equivocate with "worship," particularly and most especially with the "Divine worship," that is due to God alone. To give Divine Worship or "Latria" to any creature" in the Holy Catholic Faith, constitutes idolatry and to give Latria to anyone other than God, in the Holy Catholic Faith, is not only forbidden by Sacred Sacred Scripture, but also, Sacred Tradition, and most especially by the Holy Catholic Church itself; the Catholic Church has not ever nor will ever approval of giving "latria" to another other one, than the Lord God himself alone. And that is Dogma in the Catholic faith, which cannot be contravened nor nullified for any Catholics.

Catholics, give the saints "veneration" or "honour" by honouring them as those whom God has made holy or "sanctified." This veneration is known in greek as "Doulia." Any Saint, or even the Blessed Virgin Mary is always ascribed "doulia" as rightfully they should be as God's Holy ones; with the Blessed Virgin Mary, honoured with the "highest form of honour" due that can or is afforded to any creature, that of "Hyper-doulia," or the "Highest amount of honouring." Keep in mind that is no the same thing as "Latria," which I will refer shortly."

Think then, good folks, do we not honour one another's parents, as the Lord God hath commanded? If you're answering in the affirmative, you'd be correct in doing so.

Likewise we do honour, mind you not divine worship, to the saints. Divine Worship, that is worship that is ascribed purely and due to God alone, is known as "Latria," roughly being "sacrificial worship." Now, Latria is due to God alone, and no others; not even the saints, and most especially not the Blessed Virgin Mary. "Latria" is offered to God alone, for were "Latria" offered to any thing or one other than God, such an act would in fact constitute "Idolatry."


To give you some further resources on the "Saints," and the "Blessed Virgin Mary" and the correct Catholic view on them; please refer to the following links:


Saints

Mary



Here particularly refers one to scriptural verses and witness of the Early Church in regards to the Saints of God, and beseeching their prayers.

Scripture Catholic - SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER


Nota Bene:
Now, I recognize the apprehension, that any of you must feel or the antipathy towards anything remotely that hints of Catholicism; now, I should like to admonish you, to be open minded towards our Saviour Jesus Christ and follow His will and that of the Holy Ghost's. Now, also, let it be known, that the apologist who proliferates the apologetics in the video being from CARM, I would've expected as much. I am familiar with them and was a former member of their forum, having previously ascribed to Protestant theology with CARM's help, I too once believed as they do.



However, since I have grown in my faith, by the grace of God and the guidance of the Holy Ghost, the Blessed Trinity, has shown me that the light of faith and in HIS holy grace, has directed me unto the Catholic Church. Now, disagree as one may, it is by God's grace that I've seen in Holy Scripture and in Sacred Tradition of God [not "traditions of Men" but the faith given "hand by hand" or "handed-down" or "traditio"-ed, or given by "tradition" from the Holy Apostles themselves unto the present day: the Christian faith in the fullness of its wisdom, dignity, strength, and grace; that the "Holy Catholic Church" is indeed the Church that Christ gave and established and perpetuated by Christ's commanded by the Holy Apostles' commission and under the guardianship of the Holy Ghost that has been preserved today.


I wish you all the best.
Christ have mercy!
In the Charity of God,
-[username]

[and post continued:]

Additionally, for further clarification, let one remember and call to mind, that Holy Writ exhorts us to pray for one another, and that it is efficacious.


NOTA BENE:
Pray for one another on earth is known as "intercessory Prayer;" for in doing so, one "intercedes" so as to ask or "pray" on someone else behalf. Thus when St. Paul implores us in Holy Scripture to "pray for one another;" he is asking for the "Intercession" of other Christians on one anthers' behalf.
Now, with our brethren who have departed this life, and entered into the Heavenly Kingdom, we ask for their prayers unto God on our behalf, knowing, that any prayers or knowledge of prayers, is only made permissible by the allowance of the Divine Will of God.




So, the hearing of any prayer and the granting of petitions is only done by God, and through His Holy Grace. Therefore, were God, to say act through a man or a woman on earth, so as to heal or help some one; would we not then thank them and pray our Blessed Saviour for his mercy and the grace in which he sought fit to bestow on one's self through the instrument(s) of his human servants?

I would then believe the answer would be that of "Yes;" or in the "affirmative."

Let one ponder with this in mind and again be open to the prompting and guidance of the Holy Ghost. Please do diligently, and with the guidance of the Holy Ghost, refer to see the links, that I have provided, so as understand more fundamentally, what exactly this business of asking the "Saints to pray for us" is in Catholic belief. The links explain in a most clear manner, far better than I myself am able to convey or articulate the Catholic belief regard "the Intercession" or praying to the saints."

I implore you all to do so, for see the Holy Catholic Church through her own eyes, rather than those whose misconceptions about her, paint their views and obscure the reality of which here teachings actually are and constitute.

Lord have mercy!

In God's Holy Love,
[-Username]

[and continued:]

Also, remember that in the court of monarchs and kings, and even in Christian courts, whether Protestant or Catholic, one would bow or kneel before one's king or queen as a sign of honour, respect, or "veneration." The mere act of kneeling or bowing before on another is not in of itself considered "worship;" as such necessistates the addition of giving "Latria" or "Divine worship" or "sacrificial worship" to the one being bowed before or knelt before.

And remember as such, therefore, only Latria, properly "Divine worship that is 'sacrificial in nature'," can only and alone be offered to God; as such this is something believe that is doctrine----that divine worship can only be offered unto the Blessed Trinity alone.

And here's a quotation, from another forum friend, Simon_Templar:

This is argument [that Catholics "worship" the saints when they do not give them "LATRIA" or "DIVINE WORSHIP"], first and foremost is a strawman argument because it does not accurately represent the Catholic view, and its clear the man 'teaching' does not understand the view that he is trying to defeat.

If you want to disagree with praying to the saints, fine, but if you want to engage in conversation and dialogue, even argument, you have a responsability to actually study and understand the opposing view point and to represent it honestly. Anything less is not only sloppy and foolish, it is also dishonest.

For example, the foundation upon which prayer to the saints rests is the idea of the Communion of the Saints, which interestingly enough almost all Christians confess to believe in every time they say the creeds (which even most protestants do say). Yet this is not addressed at all in the video.

Secondly, the argument has some key assertions that are foundational to the conclusion, and frankly they are assertions that Catholics do not agree with and thus are largely useless.

For example, the key assertion of the argument in the video is that prayer equals worship. Catholics and Orthodox, as well as some Lutherans and some Anglicans don't agree. Further, I can relatively easily prove linguisticly that the act of praying does not necessarily equal an act of worship.
In other words, the argument presented relies upon the modern, western common usage of the word prayer, rather than what the word actually strictly means.

This actually is hinted at even in the video. I almost wonder if it was something of a slip, but the man presenting the argument mentioned that prayers included requests, pleas, and requests for intercession.
This is absolutely true, and though he lumped these all in as "worship" the reality is that they are not and this can clearly be demonstrated to anyone who is willing to listen rather than simply shut out what they don't want to hear.

As Raven already pointed out, it is common practice, advised by the bible, among Christians for them to request intercessory prayers from other Christians. If this video is correct then virtually all Christians are idolaters.
A request for intercession CAN NOT be defined as worship.
Further, pleas for help are also technically "prayers" as I pointed out in a different thread, in older english usage the phrase "Help my I pray you", or "I pray you, grant me this favor" would have been common because the word pray was never limited to only divine requests. Its literal, original meaning was any ernest request or plea or begging.

Thus every time you ask your brother to help you move, you technically are praying to your brother. Every time you ask your pastor to pray for you, you are praying to your pastor.

The real issue here is not that they are asking for help, or that they are asking for intercession. The issue is also, not that they are asking someone other than God.
The reality is, if we are to be honest, that we all do that and we do it all the time, because there is nothing wrong with it.

The real issue, and what protestants really have a problem with it is that they are asking someone who is not physically alive. They are asking someone who to the protestant mind is dead.

And that is where the doctrine of the Communion of the Saints comes in. Because according to this teaching, the saints in heaven are not dead, they are alive in Christ. Further, they are not truly seperated from us, because they are still part of the same communion that we are, the same body, the same Church, whatever you want to call it.
The teaching of scripture is that we and they are all citizens of the same city, and this is not presented in some future sense where we will be together in the next life. In Hebrews 12 it makes it clear that for all who are in Christ this is here and now. We, and they, and the Angels are all residents of the kingdom, all residents of the same glorious city, right now.

Further, the whole issue of omniscience is largely irrelevant because our unity as a body, as a Church is through Christ, through his Spirit, and when you truly begin to understand prayer, you begin to understand that it isn't we who pray.. it is the Spirit that prays through us.
When we pray we are coming into communion with God, in the Spirit, through Christ, and thus it doesn't matter whether any other person, saint in heaven or on earth is omniscient because God is the one doing everything and enabling everything.

Part of the problem here is the faulty view of prayer that many protestants have. I'm sure many Catholics do as well, but many protestants view prayer as something resembling magic.. as an issue of cause and effect. You pray and it causes God to do something. Or you pray and it causes a saint to do something.
The reality is that the major point of prayer is not to cause things to happen... it is to include us in the communion of saints bound together in Christ and enlivened by The Spirit.

Why do you think God Jesus instructed us to pray "thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven" do you think its because God's will would not be done, if we didn't pray it? Do you think that God would lead us into evil, if we didn't pray and ask him not to?

Prayer is not best viewed as mechanistic, cause and effect. This doesn't mean we shouldn't ask for things, it doesn't mean we shouldn't pray for things to happen, and when we do, we should have faith that they will. The point, however, even when we bring petitions like that, is not that we are causing it to happen. The point is that we are taking part in the community of Faith, that we are being joined into it.
When we bring a petition, it isn't just us, it is the Church bringing a petition.

Do you think that God will only answer prayers if we get the pastor to pray with us, or if we get as many of our friends to pray with us as possible? Obviously I don't think many of us really believe that.. so then why do we ask others to pray with us and for us?
Ultimately its because the most important thing with prayer is that when we pray, we are not praying as an individual, alone. We are praying as a member of the Body of Christ, one part of a whole. One of the major points of prayer is that through it we can learn to conform our will to God's will. That is what I'm getting at when I say that when we pray, it is not only us, but The Spirit, and indeed Jesus Christ who prays through us.
The ideal of prayer is that we would pray perfectly according to God's will, because it would indeed by God praying through us.
The reason that there is an emphasis on corporate prayer in scripture, and through out all Church tradition is because it is fundamental to God's will that we be part of the Body of Christ. Our communion with God comes through our communion with the Body of Christ.

This is why it is important that we pray for each other, and that we pray together and that we both interceed, and ask for intercession, because we must learn to be part of the Body, part of the Communion of Saints.

 

[judechild]

Not just mary.


Judges 5:24 (Show me Judges 5)
“Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed.

I would like to point out that I said "named, not called." This becomes clearer if the text you cited is compared to Luke 1:27:

Luke: "kai eiselqwn proV authn eipen caire kecaritwmenh o kurioV meta sou" (I don't understand why my Greek-keys aren't working, so the transliteration will have to do; I was able to cut-and-paste the Judges passage).

Judges: "αἱ σοφαὶ ἄρχουσαι αὐτῆς ἀπεκρίθησαν πρὸς αὐτήν, καὶ αὐτὴ ἀπέστρεψε λόγους αὐτῆς ἑαυτῇ."

The word "Kecaritwmenh" is the word in question; it is substantially different from the other "blessed" in Judges. Also, in keeping with the rules of Greek grammer, the Luke passage constitutes a name, as opposed to Judges, which is a descriptor.

Really, though, I've never seen an on-line discussion get anywhere if the meanings of words are brought up...

The scrpture is clear, humans are below angels, that means Mary was too. She was in the Adamic creation too. No? It says ALL siine din Adam.

Jesus was man, and He did not sin. Paul is speaking to his congegation; all of which, including him and most of humanity, had sinned. Scripture also says "All Israel will be saved;" but it appears that not all the Jewish people will be in heaven. Again please, since you love asking questions, please answer one of mine: why are we below angels? Is it only some legalism: we have bodies, therefore we are below angels?

True, but the previous text was about humans though.

So you say.

Sorry..then Why did Paul forget Mary, if she wa known as OUR mother back then?

For the third time; why did Paul forget God, if He was known as OUR Father back then?

Paul did not forget Mary, she simply wasn't the subject of the typology Paul was expressing.

Again....Judges 5:24
“Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed.

Again, the word used for... oh never mind.

She was named "Full of Grace," not called it.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Actually I read that a Catholic theologian,..I think Aquinas (I think) was also into faith alone?

Certainly not Aquinas. It was his theology and the theology of the other medieval scholastics against which Luther and the reformers reacted.

ps, do u do the hyperdulia thing too?

Not really. I don't think the threefold distinction between veneration (of the saints), hyperdulia (of the Virgin), and latria (of God alone) is particularly helpful, anyway. You may say that I venerate all the saints, including the Blessed Virgin, in a fairly low-key way. I have also my favorite saints, and she is of course one of them as you can see above in post #32; I am also fascinated by John the Forerunner (that's 'the Baptist' to Protestants and Catholics) and, of course. St. Paul. But I suppose, being Lutheran, the last in inevitable.

 

[Jeronimomoulia]

Problems about dulia and huperdylia.

According to Catholic doctrine, Mary devotes every minute of the day to me; she is hurt when i commite sin; she hears all my prayers, she listen to my praises. Besides, Mary does the same with every Catholic, and with every other christian or pagan too.

Therefore, Mary is a mega-creature, according to Catholic doctrine. She is in the cities, in countries, in mountains and in the depth of sea. She exceeds limits of creature.

Problem about virginity.

Mary was married, so she was devoted to her husband. If Joseph claimed her for sex, she could´nt refuse, according to the commandments of the Lord. Virginity is a sin if offends other consort. Besides, it looks that she had children apart from Jesus: Hebrew does not distinguish "brother" and "cousin", but greek does, and new testament, written in greek language, says "brother". Gospel also talks about "sons of Mary".

 

[judechild]

Jeronimomoulia,

What is heaven? Is it only a place in the clouds where the disembodied spirits of the deceased float about being happy? Also, what is the Body of Christ? When you die, are you still a member of the Body of Christ? And if you are still a member of the Body of Christ, should you still do as St. Paul says and "With all prayer and supplication, pray at every opportunity in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18)?

We believe Mary is still a member of the Body of Christ, and that as she is in heaven, she is in a state outside of time; hence she can "hear" all the prayers because of that state. There is a similar image in the Book of Revelation as the elders (5:8) and angels (8:3-5) are depicted as bringing the prayers of the people on earth to the Throne in Heaven.

Yes, Mary is a "mega-creature" because she is the most human of all of us non-divine people. Eve's disobedience led to sin permiating the universe through her (Genesis 3:6), but Genesis 3:15 prophesizes about a new "woman" who's offspring will crush the serpant. So, though the obedience of the New Eve (Rev 12), Grace and Salvation came into the world through her. That is a unique role in salvation history; Mary is the most human of us all, and that is why she is a "mega-creature."

But I disagree that she "exceeds limits of creature" because God can give the graces necessary to have Mary fulfill the role He gave her. After all, God acted through Peter to heal Aeneas (Acts 9:32-35); Peter could not have done this apart from God, but God allowed it to happen. Likewise, God allows Grace to continue to flow through Mary, and the other members of Christ's Body who have passed from this life.

As to your objections on the basis of Mary's virginity; that is not the subject of this thread. There are plenty of threads that deal with that.

 

[Frogster]

Certainly not Aquinas. It was his theology and the theology of the other medieval scholastics against which Luther and the reformers reacted.



Not really. I don't think the threefold distinction between veneration (of the saints), hyperdulia (of the Virgin), and latria (of God alone) is particularly helpful, anyway. You may say that I venerate all the saints, including the Blessed Virgin, in a fairly low-key way. I have also my favorite saints, and she is of course one of them as you can see above in post #32; I am also fascinated by John the Forerunner (that's 'the Baptist' to Protestants and Catholics) and, of course. St. Paul. But I suppose, being Lutheran, the last in inevitable.

It is in one of my Romans commentaries, it says Aquinas was into faith alone. If you do a search, it probably comes up.

The veneration is a slippery worship slope though.

 

[Dark_Lite]

The veneration is a slippery worship slope though.

Only for those who don't understand it, or for those who don't want to understand it.

 

[Frogster]

I would like to point out that I said "named, not called." This becomes clearer if the text you cited is compared to Luke 1:27:

Luke: "kai eiselqwn proV authn eipen caire kecaritwmenh o kurioV meta sou" (I don't understand why my Greek-keys aren't working, so the transliteration will have to do; I was able to cut-and-paste the Judges passage).

Judges: "αἱ σοφαὶ ἄρχουσαι αὐτῆς ἀπεκρίθησαν πρὸς αὐτήν, καὶ αὐτὴ ἀπέστρεψε λόγους αὐτῆς ἑαυτῇ."

The word "Kecaritwmenh" is the word in question; it is substantially different from the other "blessed" in Judges. Also, in keeping with the rules of Greek grammer, the Luke passage constitutes a name, as opposed to Judges, which is a descriptor.

Really, though, I've never seen an on-line discussion get anywhere if the meanings of words are brought up...





Jesus was man, and He did not sin. Paul is speaking to his congegation; all of which, including him and most of humanity, had sinned. Scripture also says "All Israel will be saved;" but it appears that not all the Jewish people will be in heaven. Again please, since you love asking questions, please answer one of mine: why are we below angels? Is it only some legalism: we have bodies, therefore we are below angels?



So you say.



For the third time; why did Paul forget God, if He was known as OUR Father back then?

Paul did not forget Mary, she simply wasn't the subject of the typology Paul was expressing.



Again, the word used for... oh never mind.

She was named "Full of Grace," not called it.

Ummmm..

Again....Judges 5:24
“Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed.

Second fact. Mary was born in Adam, which means she sinned, unless you can show me contrary to Rom 3:23, and where it says she was exempt from the "all' in Rom 5.

Third fact, she was lower than the angels, as a part of the Adamic creation. So until you can disprove the clear president of scripture, you will just be repeating but not disproving.

Thanks.