What about Baptism?

FluviusNeckar · Jan 10, 2003

Originally posted by Auntie
No.

Any CoC member will tell you ALL Catholics and ALL Protestant denomination members, who have died as members of those churches, ARE NOW BURNING IN HELL. ALL.

I am surprised that someone who works with the staff of Christian forums would make a statement like you have which not only violates the forum rules against defaming other groups but also mischaraterizes your opponent's position for the sake of argument.

 

FluviusNeckar · Jan 10, 2003

Originally posted by Auntie
There are, of course, different kinds of Churches of Christ. But the one I was raised in taught that only people who belonged to the CoC had any chance of salvation. If your CoC teaches differently, then I am glad to know that. My CoC also taught, btw, that the Catholic Church is the anti-Christ. So I was raised with some garbage teaching, which I am thankful to have overcome.

Just wondering, do you believe YOU could be a member of the Baptist Church and still be saved? In other words, if there was NO CoC in your community, no CoC for hundreds of miles, would you attend and join a Baptist or Methodist Church? (Or any other church?)

Your post explains your hateful prejudice against the church of Christ.  It also explains why you would agree with a staff decision to move this discussion outside the theology forum because YOU are the one who has determined that members of the church of Christ are going to hell for preaching "another Gospel."

FluviusNeckar · Jan 10, 2003

Originally posted by Auntie
Just wondering, do you believe YOU could be a member of the Baptist Church and still be saved? In other words, if there was NO CoC in your community, no CoC for hundreds of miles, would you attend and join a Baptist or Methodist Church? (Or any other church?)

Your post reveals a double standard.  That double standard reveals a prejudice.  You use a test here which if applied in any denomination would yield the results you seek to use to prove your point and justify your animosity toward members of the Church of Christ.

Ask your question at a Catholic Church and you'll find a large number of people would never worship at anything but a Catholic Church.

The wonderful thing about Promise Keepers is that they have rejected such animosity-determined results and actually listened to those who sit in different camps to determine what it is they are actually saying.

As a result, Promise Keepers has carefully followed a policy which requires new Christians be informed that they MUST be baptized as soon as they can.  By their actions, they have created a neutral meeting ground which has closed more than this one gap and which has enabled mutual meetings to occur. 

Male members of the church of Christ attend these events with relish and reward and to characterize the church of Christ as preaching as different gospel as you have runs counter to the facts and is best explained by your view of the world and not objective reality.

ScottEmerson · Jan 10, 2003

I read this today, and thought I would post it. It echoes EXACTLY what has been said on the post lately:

"Due to its insistence on "perfect unity", its rejection of interpretation and ambiguity, and its insistence that all must understand the Holy Scriptures in the same way it does, the ICC believes and teaches that only ICC members are saved. Most ICC members will, if pressed by an outsider, avoid stating this or soften it by insisting that there may be some people who came to the correct conclusions about the Bible outside of the ICC. In practice, though, the ICC believes they are the one and only true Church at present, and that it is highly unlikely, if even possible, for anyone to be saved elsewhere."

So, indeed, the official position of the Church of Christ is that those who have not been baptized as a disciple do indeed go to Hell, which would answer your questoin, Auntie.

There is also strong evidence that the Church of Christ movement is dying. For every 5 people who are being baptized, over 4 are going to another denomination. There are more former members of the group than current ones.

The message is getting out!

(So this may sound mean spirited to some who are in the ICC. I would invite you to a Southern Baptist Church, so you can understand where I'm coming from - a position of Truth.)

Auntie · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
I am surprised that someone who works with the staff of Christian forums would make a statement like you have which not only violates the forum rules against defaming other groups but also mischaraterizes your opponent's position for the sake of argument.

 

FluviusNeckar,

A--I am not a staff member.

B--My statement reflects the teaching of the CoC I was raised in, and the teaching of most CoC's.

C--I have no opponent here, sorry.

Auntie · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
Your post explains your hateful prejudice against the church of Christ.

Hateful prejudice?

.....YOU are the one who has determined that members of the church of Christ are going to hell for preaching "another Gospel."

That's an out and out lie.

Ben johnson · Jan 11, 2003

Dont misrepresent me Ben. I have never said it is the water itself that accomplishes the remission of sins. I do believe that we are saved by faith just not Faith ALONE. Grace, faith, repentence, confessing Jesus as Lord and being water baptized working together is what puts you into Christ. Once you get into Christ you must be faithful until death to remain in a saved condition. It as the point of Baptism in water the final step that puts you into Christ having you sins washed away by the Blood of Jesus Christ Rev 1:5. The water is not magical but it is where God washes away our sins and we know this because of our faith in the operation of God. Col 2:12-13. I have already clearly showed this in my previous posts and no where do I hint at saying the water itself washes away the sins.

I did not misrepresent you, Cougan---this very paragraph asserts your contradiction.

"Water is not magical, water itself does not remit sins."

"Water is where we are put INTO Christ".

"Water is where sins are washed away."

Thus without the water, there is no, "IN CHRIST".

Without the water, there is no FORGIVENESS OF SINS.

I post frequently on this message board and others, on various topics; I have just realized that in nearly all my posts, I am contending for the ESSENCE of SALVATION.

This is no difference.

Salvation is IN CHRIST. "In Christ", is BELIEVING. There is nothing else. No work, no deed; "even to him who does not work, his faith is credited as righteousness."

The essence of salvation is FELLOWSHIP. Fellowship with God and Christ. We "abide in Christ", and He "abides in us". By belief. Everything follows, and flows from, that. Good works, growth, waterbaptism.

This is why Cornelius' family and friends were SAVED and began worshipping God and speaking in tongues, before being dipped---because they had the BELIEF, the FELLOWSHIP. That's all salvation is.

"Repent and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name". We believe the "calling on His name" washes away our sins, you believe the "WATER" does.

As you say, "it's not the WATER that washes away sins, but water is where the sins are washed away".

Throughout history, thousands, likely millions of people---from prisoners to war's trench-fighters, have received Jesus Christ---truly believing, truly---saved? Not according to you. Their unfortunate deaths BEFORE THEY COULD BE DUNKED, well that's just hard luck---they are perished, all.

Now I realize that once again I am contending for the essence of the Gospel. James did not refute the fact that man is justified by faith and not by works or law (need I quote all these verses?); James says, "a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone"---but this after saying, "faith was working WITH Abraham's works, and as a result, faith was perfected". Contextually, James merely agrees with Jesus---GOOD trees PRODUCE good works, bad trees, bad fruit.

In the movie, "The Hiding Place", a true story---Corrie was released. A "clerical error". Months later, all women of her age were put to death. As she was leaving, the piano-player (with the NOW MANGLED and USELESS HANDS)---she cried, "Corrie! I WANT HIM!" Corrie turned and smiled, and said: "Just ask---He's there."

That was a true story. That piano player, received Christ. And then, in a matter of days, was executed. And she was never water-baptized.

I shall meet that woman, someday---for there is not a shred of doubt that she was saved.

Yet according to those who believe "water is WHERE sins are forgiven, it is WHERE we are put into Christ---that poor woman shall only expect the fires of Hell.

In your heart and in your spirit, I know you see the falsity of that statement.

She is saved, she's in Heaven.

Those who confronted the shells in the trenches of war, after believing, are saved.

We are justified by faith alone---real faith, which PRODUCES good works. They all said it. Even James.

Real faith HAS good works (if possible)---thus, we ARE justified by faith AND works. But salvation is faith alone. Real faith.

Real fellowship with our Creator.

"We saw, we touched, the Word of Life; the life was manifested, we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us---what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, that you also may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son, JESUS CHRIST."

Auntie · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar
Your post reveals a double standard.  That double standard reveals a prejudice.  You use a test here which if applied in any denomination would yield the results you seek to use to prove your point and justify your animosity toward members of the Church of Christ.

Ask your question at a Catholic Church and you'll find a large number of people would never worship at anything but a Catholic Church.

The wonderful thing about Promise Keepers is that they have rejected such animosity-determined results and actually listened to those who sit in different camps to determine what it is they are actually saying.

As a result, Promise Keepers has carefully followed a policy which requires new Christians be informed that they MUST be baptized as soon as they can.  By their actions, they have created a neutral meeting ground which has closed more than this one gap and which has enabled mutual meetings to occur. 

Male members of the church of Christ attend these events with relish and reward and to characterize the church of Christ as preaching as different gospel as you have runs counter to the facts and is best explained by your view of the world and not objective reality.

Do I owe you something, or was this analysis on the house?

Auntie · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by Ben johnson

In the movie, "The Hiding Place", a true story---Corrie was released. A "clerical error". Months later, all women of her age were put to death. As she was leaving, the piano-player (with the NOW MANGLED and USELESS HANDS)---she cried, "Corrie! I WANT HIM!" Corrie turned and smiled, and said: "Just ask---He's there."

That was a true story. That piano player, received Christ. And then, in a matter of days, was executed. And she was never water-baptized.

I shall meet that woman, someday---for there is not a shred of doubt that she was saved.

Yet according to those who believe "water is WHERE sins are forgiven, it is WHERE we are put into Christ---that poor woman shall only expect the fires of Hell.

In your heart and in your spirit, I know you see the falsity of that statement.

She is saved, she's in Heaven.

Those who confronted the shells in the trenches of war, after believing, are saved.

Amen to that, Ben. The love of Christ is in your words, a witness to the saving power of our Lord.

Your post reminds me of the POW's who never came home, those who were locked up in small, filthy prison cells, tortured daily and finally killed by their captors. They found ways of communicating with the other POW's in nearby cells, sometimes using Morse Code. It was thru this communication that many were witnessed to and received the Gospel of Christ, accepting Jesus as their Savior only moments or hours before their deaths. Baptism is a luxury in times of war.

Auntie · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
I read this today, and thought I would post it. It echoes EXACTLY what has been said on the post lately:

"Due to its insistence on "perfect unity", its rejection of interpretation and ambiguity, and its insistence that all must understand the Holy Scriptures in the same way it does, the ICC believes and teaches that only ICC members are saved. Most ICC members will, if pressed by an outsider, avoid stating this or soften it by insisting that there may be some people who came to the correct conclusions about the Bible outside of the ICC. In practice, though, the ICC believes they are the one and only true Church at present, and that it is highly unlikely, if even possible, for anyone to be saved elsewhere."

So, indeed, the official position of the Church of Christ is that those who have not been baptized as a disciple do indeed go to Hell, which would answer your questoin, Auntie.

There is also strong evidence that the Church of Christ movement is dying. For every 5 people who are being baptized, over 4 are going to another denomination. There are more former members of the group than current ones.

The message is getting out!

(So this may sound mean spirited to some who are in the ICC. I would invite you to a Southern Baptist Church, so you can understand where I'm coming from - a position of Truth.)

Hi Scott. I think the ICC and the CoC are different organizations, but I'm not sure about that.

Here are some links that give the CoC's condemnation of all churches. These links are from a CoC website, articles written by CoC preachers:

Condemnation of the Baptist Church:
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/Ruffner6.htm

Condemnation of the Catholic Church:
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/BrownDP1.htm

Condemnation of Anglican/Episcopal Churches:
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/SismanK1.htm

Condemnation of the Disciples Of Christ/Christian Churches:
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/HaleyR02.htm

Condemnation of the Methodist Church:
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/ColleyG3.htm

Condemnation of The Pentecostal Holiness Church, Assembly Of God Church, And Nazarene Church:
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/WeirML04.htm

Condemnation of the Lutheran Church:
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/DeLongL2.htm

Condemnation of the Presbyterian Church:
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/SilcoxP4.htm

Condemnation of the Mennonite Church:
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/FoxMR001.htm

http://www.preachersfiles.com/directory/denominations/denominations.htm

Auntie · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by FluviusNeckar

The wonderful thing about Promise Keepers is that they have rejected such animosity-determined results and actually listened to those who sit in different camps to determine what it is they are actually saying.

As a result, Promise Keepers has carefully followed a policy which requires new Christians be informed that they MUST be baptized as soon as they can.  By their actions, they have created a neutral meeting ground which has closed more than this one gap and which has enabled mutual meetings to occur. 

Male members of the church of Christ attend these events with relish and reward and to characterize the church of Christ as preaching as different gospel as you have runs counter to the facts and is best explained by your view of the world and not objective reality.

You should tell your CoC brothers this, because some of them apparently disagree with you.

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_02_18.htm

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_09_16.htm

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_09_22.htm

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_10_12.htm

FluviusNeckar · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by ScottEmerson
I read this today, and thought I would post it. It echoes EXACTLY what has been said on the post lately:

"Due to its insistence on "perfect unity", its rejection of interpretation and ambiguity, and its insistence that all must understand the Holy Scriptures in the same way it does, the ICC believes and teaches that only ICC members are saved. Most ICC members will, if pressed by an outsider, avoid stating this or soften it by insisting that there may be some people who came to the correct conclusions about the Bible outside of the ICC. In practice, though, the ICC believes they are the one and only true Church at present, and that it is highly unlikely, if even possible, for anyone to be saved elsewhere."

So, indeed, the official position of the Church of Christ is that those who have not been baptized as a disciple do indeed go to Hell, which would answer your questoin, Auntie.

There is also strong evidence that the Church of Christ movement is dying. For every 5 people who are being baptized, over 4 are going to another denomination. There are more former members of the group than current ones.

The message is getting out!

(So this may sound mean spirited to some who are in the ICC. I would invite you to a Southern Baptist Church, so you can understand where I'm coming from - a position of Truth.)

I am not really aware what the International Church of Christ teaches and if I have misunderstood this thread to be a discussion of their position then we need to start again. As for your rejoicing over the ostensible death of the church of Christ, you might also note that religion in America and the West is dying. Islam is growing faster than the Baptist Church, the Catholic Church, and all the churches put together.

I do rejoice that so many members of the church of Christ have entered other churches, especially the Community Church. This cross-over has become possible only because evangelical churches in general have moved, since the end of WWII, away from their extreme Calvinism to positions which 200 years ago, only the churches of Christ maintained.

The cross-over is possible because these evangleical churches have endorsed and put into practice what churches of Christ have said needed to be done for centuries now. As they enter these churches, members of the church of Christ are having a strong impact on the remaining baggage of Calvinism which interferes with clear doctrine and single minded devotion to Christ.

I find much cause for rejoicing in the present conditions as the churches of Christ from inception have WANTED to cease to exist and find that unity among all Christians which does away with distinct groups. Baptist churches still have a long way to go and your recommendation that one join such a group would merit applause if those churches were less wedded to Calvin and more to Christ.

sierraf · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by Auntie
Hi Scott. I think the ICC and the CoC are different organizations, but I'm not sure about that.

Not all Christians who attend services at buildings with the sign outside the door reading "Church of Christ" identify themselves with the ICC. There are many congregations who remain autonomous and are not members of any "organization".

cougan · Jan 11, 2003

First off ICOC is something completely different than the COC. As far as this Promise keeper movement this is the first I have heard of such a movement. I have seen some COC renaming their building COMUNITY CHURCH if this is a part of this Faith keepers movement then I am opposed to it for the following reasons. In my area where these Comunity churchs are being formed bibical doctrine is being compromised to adhere to the people needs and wants. They are allowing women to be Elders and Deacons, having musical instruments in the worship service, and changing the Lord Supper to a monthly, quaterly, or one a year. Unity in the church CANNOT be based on what makes the people happy it MUST BE BASED on bibical truth. Now if people were coming together in a building with the name quick check on it yet they were worshiping in spirit and in truth without compromise the word of God for their own personally needs then I would be all for that. The church is the people and not the sign on the door. I just read part of 1 link that you posted Auntie but what you will notice probably in the majorty of those articles is that they will say something like they have nothing against the people it agaisnt the doctrine that is taught. Then we also see that they will give book, chapter and verse to back up what they are saying. In other words they will not just blindly state something and give no support for it. This would be a mans opinion instead of letting the word of God show the truth.

Now lets get this thread back on track. Why is it that everyone is avoiding my posts and not answer my questions? I have spelled out some very clear and logical points that no one has touched with a 10 foot pole. Instead all that is being done is changing the subject and talking about something else. I guess I will just assume that you Cant answer my questions or comments because its hard to go against the truth. I am sure my words will go unheard once again and other things will be spoken of instead. Oh well all I can do is try.

To make it easier I am refering to Post 302, 313, 314, and 337.

sierraf · Jan 11, 2003

Sorry cougan, but this kind of goes along with some of your thoughts in your post #337.

Charles Schultz once said something interesting that I think applies.

"I am a trifle odd, perhaps, in my feeling about these things, but I believe that one cannot, so to speak "go" to church. How can you go to something that you already are a part of? If you are a Christian, you are the Church."

cougan · Jan 11, 2003

Continueing from #302.

Acts 19:1 And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples

2 he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

Here we see that it is implied by Paul here that these men could of belived and been converted without having the HS. He wanted to know if they had received it yet because as we will find out in a min if they had not he would of laid hands on them so they could.

3 And he said to them, "Into what then were you baptized?" So they said, "Into John's baptism."

It was obivious to Paul at this point that men had not been taught the good news as of yet so he ask them this question.

4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

This is key to a proper baptism. When one is water baptized they must belive in Jesus Christ for it to be a true baptism into Christ. These men had not belived in Jesus and as soon as Paul explained to them about Jesus and his kingdom they we re-baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. They now were properly baptized.

5 When they heard <I>this, </I>they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Now this does not mean some sort of verbal expression as we are never told what the apostles or others say during a baptism instead this is a key expression of what happens when one is baptized. Through baptism one becomes the possession of and comes under the protection of the one whose name he bears. He is dedicated to him.

6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Once again notice the order of events. They were taught, they belived and were water baptized. Then after this water baptism when they were saved then Paul an apostle lays his hands on them so the can receive the HS. Again, if Paul had not laid hands on them they would not of received the HS. Now did you have an apostle lay hands on you my friend? If you did'nt then how could you have the HS and how could you be saved since you state that one must be baptized in the HS to be saved. Again you say that water baptism is something that is done by someone that is already saved. Well then you have these men being saved before HS baptism now dont you? It is very clear my friend these men were saved when they were water baptized. Really quick I remember you say I have contridicted myself about saying its not the water that saves you but its at the point of water baptism that saves you. This is just a smoke screen you have come up with and think anybody treating what I said honestly will see clearly that their is not a contridiction in what I said. Theres a big difference between saying the WATER ITSELF washes away your sins and saying its at the POINT OF WATER BAPTISM that your sins are washed away. The first gives the water some magical properties the 2nd is the point that your faith coupled with this obedient act as commanded by Jesus Mat 28:19 and Peter Acts 10 is when God washes away your sins with the blood of Jesus. In my next post I will deal with the Phillippian Jailer in Acts 16.

Auntie · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by cougan
I just read part of 1 link that you posted Auntie but what you will notice probably in the majorty of those articles is that they will say something like they have nothing against the people it agaisnt the doctrine that is taught.

http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/Ruffner6.htm

"I must say at the beginning of this article that I have nothing personally against people who call themselves "Baptist". Many are fine religious folk and splendid neighbors. But in spite of all these things the Baptist Church is an enemy of Jesus Christ and His brethren. Their many fine qualities will do them no good in the Day of Judgment."

cougan, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that the CoC have condemned the Baptist PEOPLE to Hell.

I can go thru the other links and point out the FACT that the CoC EQUALLY condemns ALL Christian Churchs, ALL Christian PEOPLE, to Hell. Why do you continually refuse to admit this??

FluviusNeckar · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by Auntie
http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/Ruffner6.htm

"I must say at the beginning of this article that I have nothing personally against people who call themselves "Baptist". Many are fine religious folk and splendid neighbors. But in spite of all these things the Baptist Church is an enemy of Jesus Christ and His brethren. Their many fine qualities will do them no good in the Day of Judgment."

cougan, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that the CoC have condemned the Baptist PEOPLE to Hell.

I can go thru the other links and point out the FACT that the CoC EQUALLY condemns ALL Christian Churchs, ALL Christian PEOPLE, to Hell. Why do you continually refuse to admit this??

Baptists would agree that their many fine qualities will do them no good on the day of judgment. Likewise, they would agree that the Baptist Church and membership therein will do them no good on the day of judgment. What will save the Baptists on the day of judgment will be the same thing that saves all Christians on the day of judgment---the grace of Jesus Christ.

I condemn the statement you have quoted and can find equally absurd statements from Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, and Protestant publications. Why have you singled out one group for your animosity-determined tests and test results?

FluviusNeckar · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by Auntie
You should tell your CoC brothers this, because some of them apparently disagree with you.

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_02_18.htm

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_09_16.htm

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_09_22.htm

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_10_12.htm

I'm not sure my position crumbles because others disagree with me or criticize Promise Keepers. We still go to Promise Keepers and welcome the new openness among churches which avoids the condemnation you seem intent on pursuing.

FluviusNeckar · Jan 11, 2003

Originally posted by Auntie
You should tell your CoC brothers this, because some of them apparently disagree with you.

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_02_18.htm

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_09_16.htm

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_09_22.htm

http://www.bible-infonet.org/ff/articles/denominations/111_10_12.htm

BTW Here's a quote from the second article you cite:

"It disturbs me that so many of my brethren in Christ are participating in this religious movement."

What disturbs the writer of the article whom you cite as justification of your hate campaign is that no one is paying attention to these writers who criticize Promise Keepers. PK does need to be criticized since nothing except Jesus is above criticism but in the end, it's a great movement and male members of the churches of Christ are attending their meetings in droves.

What about Baptism?

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