What’s your problem?

[Silvertongue]

It would appear that what I consider to be a good reason and what you consider to be a good reason are two different things. Actually, at this point something almost has to be a matter of life or death to even get my attention. If people perish in their sin it will be with no thanks to science that tries to convince them that everything is ok and there is nothing to worry about.

How in the world does science in general and the theory of evolution in particular attempt to "convince people that everything is ok and that there is nothing to worry about"? If that's the case, how come so many scientists are concerned with global warming? How come so many ecologists are conerned with pollution? How come so many epidemiologists are concerned about the impending bird-flue threat? The list goes on and on...science is hardly trying to foist a pair of rose-colored glasses on the world, although neither is it all doom-and-gloom, "LOLZ it's the end-times!!!11! hurr!" either. At least science has provided some tangible ways to fight these and other problems, and make the world a better place.

Secondly, you do realize that science is not an ethical or moral system, right? It's not supposed to "save people's souls" or "make them better people" something like that, nor does anyone I know build their morals around it. If I'm at the mall and I find a wallet with $200 cash in it and several credit cards, the ToE doesn't have any bearing on the fact that I would return it to the security office, any more than the theory of gravity or germ theory does.

I can not imagine them doing that with the Bible. From the beginning the tree of life has always been a tree, not a bush. From the beginning people choose life or death, sickness or health, blessing or a curse. Nothing has come along in all this time to change any of that.

I think I have to reiterate The Bear's question here: what in the hell are you smoking? People "choose" sickness or health? When I was 15 years old I underwent a "spinal fusion with instrumentation" due to a severe case of spondylolisthesis that took three surgeries to complete...did I "choose" to be born with that condition? There was an elderly woman I cared for not too long ago who was dying of pancreatic cancer...she broke down when I was making her bed, told me how afraid she was, and how her sister had prayed for her and laid hands on her, but that it hadn't helped. Did she "choose" to have that cancer? You comment is both offensive and ignorant.

Maybe people like change, but the Bible has remained consistant and true from the beginning.

Uh-huh...that's why there's thousands of different denominations, right?

What a joke, evolution can not be falsifed but YEC is falsified? Once again you got it backwards. The only way you can falsify a "young" earth is to try and claim the last 6000 years never happened and that we are still back in the stone age.

In all my years of lurking on different boards I don't think I've ever read anything quite like this, particularly your last comment. Wow...

 

[corvus_corax]

Yes, of course. It is just that what a creationist and a evolutionist consider falsified is two different things.

Ah, I see
You arent talking about the scientific definition of falsification apparently

For example, look at horse evolution. The idea that the horse evolved from small to big in a straight line has been falsifed and it has been replaced by a hodge podge theory.

Sources please?
And what do you mean, exactly, by "hodge podge"?
You keep on using non-specific terms for your argument, which does nothing but speak against your argument

They use to think evolution was a tree, but now they think it is a bush. This sort of stuff is far to common.

Metaphors are never perfect, as you should well know.
Of course, if Christians are expecting perfect metaphors, then the only thing that falls within such criteria are their personal interpretations of the Bible, as we've seen time and time again on these forums.

I can not imagine them doing that with the Bible. From the beginning the tree of life has always been a tree, not a bush.

Demonstrate the cladistic "tree of life" for me directly from the Bible.
I would be interested in seeing such

From the beginning people choose life or death, sickness or health, blessing or a curse. Nothing has come along in all this time to change any of that.

This, of course, has absolutely nothing to do with the ToE

I use to talk about the theory of evoluion being the soup of the day or the flavor of the week. It changes more often then the weather and in some cases it changes more often then some people change their underware.

No it doesnt
And you know it doesnt
If you think it does, I'd like sources demonstrating your exagerated claim

Maybe people like change, but the Bible has remained consistant and true from the beginning.

Consistent?
No it hasnt and you know it
The early councils of what would become Christianity were basing what should be "canon" on something far different than what non-council members thought of as canon.
Even the Catholics accept certain books (to a degree) that Protestants dont.
And, worse, interpretation of said Bible changes FAR more often than scientific theory

People speak of GAP theory, literal 6,000 year Creation of the Universe, theistic evolution, etc etc etc.
People speak of "speaking in tongues" and others speak against such, all based on their interpretation of the Bible.
You cannot tell me that such is "consistent", and your personal GAP theory is no more substantiated than theistic evolution that holds to a 4.5 billion year old earth or YECism.

EDIT- More to the point, I would like you to demonstrate your assertion that the Theory of Evolution has actually been falsified.
I dont think you can demonstrate such, as it has never been falisified.

 

[JohnR7]

i.e. Young Earth Creationism = Falsified.

i.e Darwinism = Falsified.

 

[Lignoba]

i.e Darwinism = Falsified.

ie. stop fighting plzkthxbye

 

[corvus_corax]

i.e Darwinism = Falsified.

Again, I would ask for a source detailing how the Theory of Evolution has been falsified.
I dont think you can provide such.

I think that you can, at best, provide a source that falsifies some strawman of "Darwinism"

You stated earlier that Evolution had been falsified. You implied that it had been done more than once.

I would ask that you put up or drop out of the thread*.


*If you cant put up then your contributions to this thread are nothing more than biased blind speculation and perhaps trolling.

 

[JohnR7]

You claimed that the theory of evolution "falls short". Falls short of what?

It falls short of the truth. The only thing it manages to do is cause us to revaluate some of our traditional religious beliefs. Otherwise is it mostly made up of myths and fairy tails. It is as if the only prerequisite to be a evolutionist is to take creative writting 101.

 

[JohnR7]

If you cant put up then your contributions to this thread are nothing more than biased blind speculation and perhaps trolling.

It is against the rules to accuse someone of "trolling". If you feel there is a violation here, then report me and I will take it up with the sysop.

 

[Lignoba]

again, stop fighting plzkthxbye

 

[JohnR7]

Ah, I see
You arent talking about the scientific definition of falsification apparently

Yeah, right scientific falsification. I have been taking a medicine for the last 6 months that cost me $150 a month. The doctor and the nurse kept insisting that they knew more then I did and I needed to take the medicine. Now they just came out with a new study that shows the medicine actually does more harm than good. So now we have "scientific" evidence.

It is this sort of contradictions that leads me to believe that they are clueless and don't know what they are talking about. One week it is good and the next week science says it does more harm then good.

One day people are going to wake up and see that the mafia driven drug industry is lieing to people in order to get their money. All in the name of science and scientific evidence.

Sources please?

My biggest source about evolution is Talk Origion dot com. There is plenty of incriminating evidence there against evolution.

Here is a link for the discovery quiz on what is and what is not a myth. Why don't you take the test and see how good you are at exposing the myths. http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/quiz/quiz.html

 

[JohnR7]

How come so many ecologists are conerned with pollution?

How come so many industrialists are NOT concerned with pollution.

 

[corvus_corax]

It is against the rules to accuse someone of "trolling". If you feel there is a violation here, then report me and I will take it up with the sysop.

Aw John, I dont think you are trolling, but it does present itself as a possibility.
Im not accusing you of such, Im offering you the opportunity to demonstrate that you arent doing such
I have no interest in reporting you

Yeah, right scientific falsification. I have been taking a medicine for the last 6 months that cost me $150 a month. The doctor and the nurse kept insisting that they knew more then I did and I needed to take the medicine. Now they just came out with a new study that shows the medicine actually does more harm than good. So now we have "scientific" evidence.

This sounds so much like Owl, from the Winnie the Pooh books.
So much Pontificating, so little explanation
And so much avoidance of the question at hand

To wit- You have not (and cannot) backed up your statement that the Theory of Evolution itself has been falisified.

Put up, Mr Owl, or drop out of the debate.

It is this sort of contradictions that leads me to believe that they are clueless and don't know what they are talking about. One week it is good and the next week science says it does more harm then good.

I see
So you think, as you obviously stated, that since medical science changes its statements, that ALL science (including the ToE) must be wrong.
I get it!
You, of course, are conflating one field with another, given your medical history (and conflicts therein)

One day people are going to wake up and see that the mafia driven drug industry is lieing to people in order to get their money. All in the name of science and scientific evidence.

I would agree that the pharmaceutical industry is bending the citizens of the USA over a barrel, but that is the subject of another thread.

You still have yet to demonstrate how the ToE has been falsified (which is exactly what you stated earlier)
Put up, Mr Owl

My biggest source about evolution is Talk Origion dot com. There is plenty of incriminating evidence there against evolution.

I eagerly await your specifics

Here is a link for the discovery quiz on what is and what is not a myth. Why don't you take the test and see how good you are at exposing the myths. http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/mythbusters/quiz/quiz.html

The Candy Myth- 90%
"You've won 90 total points out of a possible 100.
OK, nice job on crushing candy myths!"
And I took the Money Quiz
I got-
"You've won 110 total points out of a possible 120."
Want me to take any others?


But of course, as you well know, your Discovery Channel quizzes are completely beside the point.

You still have NOT answered my challenge to your statement
Your statement was that the ToE had been falsified (and you implied that it had been done several times)
You have provided ZERO sources backing your assertion up.

Once again, Id like to see some sources that demonstrate how the ToE (as opposed to small parts of the ToE) has been falsified, ever.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

Okay, over 30 posts and so far all but one creationist fails to respond illustrating that they have no legitimate problem with the Theory of Evolution on its own merits. The one that did respond has done nothing more than to demonstrate a creationist disagreeing for no good reason and railing against the Theory of Evolution on perceived theological grounds.

So is there really not one opponent to the Theory of Evolution here that has a problem with the Theory of Evolution on its own merits? As I suspected, creationists are constantly creating the false dichotomy of religion OR evolution because that is all it is to them. The proponents of the Theory of Evolution are wasting their time arguing the merits of evolution because the creationists aren’t at all interested in evolution's actual merits. They are only here to evangelize and fight against what they perceive as evolution promoting atheism (somehow missing all the Theistic Evolutionists)

 

[Baggins]

How come so many industrialists are NOT concerned with pollution.

Perhaps they are Christians and believe it is not important as they are living in 'end times'.

Industrialist ≠scientist

 

[Hydra009]

So is there really not one opponent to the Theory of Evolution here that has a problem with the Theory of Evolution on its own merits?

I doubt it. It's pretty telling that all the opponents of evolution share very specific religious beliefs and often display fundamental misconceptions of evolution and science in general. If evolution was wrong on scientific grounds, fundamentalists would not be the only opposition.

As I suspected, creationists are constantly creating the false dichotomy of religion OR evolution because that is all it is to them.

Exactly.

The proponents of the Theory of Evolution are wasting their time arguing the merits of evolution because the creationists aren’t at all interested in evolutions actual merits.

Pretty much. But even if it's a foregone conclusion that the creationist doesn't care about knowing what he's talking about, it's at least a nice opportunity to educate posters who might not be familiar with the PRATTs and who might otherwise be suckered into thinking the creationist is making an actual case against evolution.

They are only here to evangelize and fight against what they perceive as evolution promoting atheism (somehow missing all the Theistic Evolutionists)

Exactly. This is why GA material comes by so frequently, and evolution is so often conflated with atheism.

 

[corvus_corax]

Okay, over 30 posts and so far all but one creationist fails to respond illustrating that they have no legitimate problem with the Theory of Evolution on its own merits.

And, note, when that one gets nailed down to specifics, he vacates the argument entirely.
Which is very typical of the Crevo debates Ive seen on CF
~Shrug~
Go fig

But this thread shouldnt come as a suprise to anyone. After all, Lucretius (for example) once created a thread that gave Creationists the spotlight to present ANY positive evidence for Creationism (as opposed to merely trying to poke holes in the ToE). The thread went on for several pages but not ONE SINGLE Creationist came forward to present any positive evidence for their so-called theory.

Similar threads have been created for IDists (you know, the ones who arent brave enough to actually say that it was God-of-the-Bible that "did it all"). Likewise, not a single piece of positive evidence for ID could be presented.

Creationism (as a scientific theory) does not exist, plain and simple, and neither does ID. And neither Creationists nor IDists can demonstrate their theories to be scientific in any sense of the word.

The only reason "evolutionists" should even bother continuing in these Crevo debates is for the ongoing education of lurkers.
The actual "debate" was settled decades ago. For anyone of any intellectual honesty (and who is actually interested in the reason behind the diversity of species), the debate is over and Creationism/Creation Science/Intelligent Design (yes, they're all the same thing) have been found to be more than wanting.

 

[Converse02]

The theory of evolution by natural selection is the unifying theory in the science of biology.
Without, biology would make no sense. We would not understand antibiotic resistance, avian flu, genetics, fossils in strata of rock, so on and so on.

I mean, we have FOSSILS for goodness sake.

What are the alternatives? Creationism? HA!!!!!
Does creationism explain avian flu? Antibiotic resistance? Fossils? Yeah. God *poofed* families of dinosaurs in place. God *poofs* bacteria in blood that are resistant, etc. etc. Give me a break. How are we going to advance with this nonsense.

People disagree with evolution because they are ignorant of it or are deluded. It is very difficult to understand as Darwin figured it out only 150 years eariler. Everyone thinks they understand evolution, but most Christians here seem to have only some vague notion about "monkeys."

 

[JohnR7]

The one that did respond has done nothing more than to demonstrate a creationist disagreeing for no good reason and railing against the Theory of Evolution on perceived theological grounds.

If you know anything at all about science, then perhaps you know what a standard is. When I was a carpenter, we had a standard. I had a level, a tape measure, and I knew what a 90 degree angle was. If you do not follow that standard, then you will be in trouble when you go to build something. Jesus is our standard:

1 Peter 2:6
Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
"Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame."

If you follow Jesus, His teaching, the standard that He sets, then you will never be put to shame. But if you disregard what you call "perceived theological grounds" then you are a boat without a anchor. When the storms of life come, you will have nothing to hold you steady. You will be cast about in the wind with no direction.

As a carpenter I needed a tape measure, a right angle and a level. The level could also be used as a plumb. The Bible today is our standard, it remains consistant and true, you can not build a life without it. No scientific theory has any value if it does not measure up to the standard that we use. If the cornerstone is set proper, then everything in the building lines up and is true to the cornerstone.

 

[JohnR7]

Without, biology would make no sense.

Without Darwin, then Biology is based on Mendels work and it makes sense.

 

[JohnR7]

Perhaps they are Christians and believe it is not important as they are living in 'end times'.

If they were Christians then they would know that the Bible says that those who destory the Earth, God will destory.

Rev. 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

If you know anything at all about science, then perhaps you know what a standard is. When I was a carpenter, we had a standard. I had a level, a tape measure, and I knew what a 90 degree angle was. If you do not follow that standard, then you will be in trouble when you go to build something. Jesus is our standard:

As a carpenter I needed a tape measure, a right angle and a level. The level could also be used as a plumb. The Bible today is our standard, it remains consistant and true, you can not build a life without it. No scientific theory has any value if it does not measure up to the standard that we use. If the cornerstone is set proper, then everything in the building lines up and is true to the cornerstone.

Since you are so fond of analogies I’ll try to put what everyone here (atheist and theistic evolutionist alike) is trying to tell you into one.

Different areas necessitate different standards. Levels, tape measures, squares, etc. are tools by which you execute carpentry standards. These tools are useless if you are trying to create a tapestry. Your religion is also a tool. Depending on the person wielding it, the teachings of Jesus can arguably be used to execute moral standards. Like the carpentry tools this tool is useless to science.

Your bible is not a science book. It sets no science standards. Trying to use it for that purpose is akin to forcing a square peg into a round hole. The fact that you can not come up with one single solitary problem with the Theory of Evolution on scientific grounds only illustrates this point. Why is this so hard to understand?

It may be slightly off the subject but what would happen to you if you became a TE John? Would you be ostracized from your church, friends, and family? Does this have anything to do with the Theory of Evolution at all or is all of your railing for religious and social reasons only.