Western Rite Liturgy from Saint Patrick's Orthodox Church

[TheLostCoin]

So, even though on YouTube there are snippets and some recordings of Western Rite Orthodox Liturgies or Masses, I don't think there ever has been one that has been done to the same caliber and quality as Saint Patrick's, which has just been uploaded a few days ago.

Thus, I felt like sharing. Not only to show it off for the case of comparison between the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, but also to show it off to discuss it, and to bring to light some of the controversial practices for positive, productive discussion (e.g., Pipe Organs, statues, the way the Priest blesses people, Rosaries, even Corpus Christi).

So, anyways, here you go.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Also, in addition to this, it's probably worth sharing the Western Rite Orthodox movies that have been released and published under Antioch.

 

[TheLostCoin]

By posting this, I'm not advocating or arguing against the Western Rite, just felt like it was a good forum idea.

 

[AMM]

I've seen that documentary on "The Orthodox West" but haven't seen "Ladyminster" or this most recent thing from St Patrick's. I'll have to watch them later

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Lost Coin,

These videos were FASCINATING to watch!!!! Thank you!

 

[ArmyMatt]

the Western Rite is certainly an interesting experiment.

 

[All4Christ]

Personally, while I’ll stick with the OCA, I think the Tridentine Mass in the Western Orthodox Rite is beautiful.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I second Laura..

I’ve become too much of the Divine Liturgy to go to anything else, but that Western liturgy was very lovely. I’d definitely go to it if I had access.

 

[All4Christ]

@gurneyhalleck1

As a saint from your neck of the woods said:

Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The west was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies. (St John of Shenghai)

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I second Laura..

I’ve become too much of the Divine Liturgy to go to anything else, but that Western liturgy was very lovely. I’d definitely go to it if I had access.

That’s the way I feel also. I’m way too attached to the Divine Liturgy and my parish, but coming from a traditional Anglican background, I think the western rite is lovely, too.

I’ve seen both of those videos and really liked them. A friend at my parish has spent time at that monastery.

 

[rusmeister]

I’m the stick-in-the-mud here, I guess.
I think the positive things said (even by St John) about WR were true - 1,000 years ago. I see the identification and moving towards Western forms now to be moving towards forms that have been falling away from Orthodoxy for at least a millennium, and what I saw of this completely open service, which looked more like a Roman Catholic Mass than a DL, even though the language was Orthodox, confirmed that. I think there is all the difference in the world between doing something in a world that is largely Orthodox and in a world that has fallen really far from it. We now live in world that is pushing for ecumenism and a denial of difference in Christian traditions. Theoretically, there is nothing wrong with WR, but in practice, I think there is something to be wary of.

Nothing I’ve seen here has convinced me otherwise.

 

[TheLostCoin]

I’m the stick-in-the-mud here, I guess.
I think the positive things said (even by St John) about WR were true - 1,000 years ago. I see the identification and moving towards Western forms now to be moving towards forms that have been falling away from Orthodoxy for at least a millennium, and what I saw of this completely open service, which looked more like a Roman Catholic Mass than a DL, even though the language was Orthodox, confirmed that. I think there is all the difference in the world between doing something in a world that is largely Orthodox and in a world that has fallen really far from it. We now live in world that is pushing for ecumenism and a denial of difference in Christian traditions. Theoretically, there is nothing wrong with WR, but in practice, I think there is something to be wary of.

Nothing I’ve seen here has convinced me otherwise.

If you want my opinion, I'm kind of in the middle.

On the one hand, I think that the traditional Western forms are beautiful and rooted in Apostolic Tradition. Even if heresy has largely affected them, there still some intrinsic spiritual beauty within them (given that they are practiced "Orthodox" enough), and considering that over time the Eastern Orthodox Church hasn't been the absolute best in preserving local Orthodox Traditions in comparison to overt Greek dominance, I can see the appeal of wanting to preserve these pretty Western forms in a world that largely hates them (Pope Francis clearly wants to get rid of it, and the leadership of the Episcopal and Anglican Churches do too).

On the other hand, I really don't buy the whole "we need to restore our Western heritage" or the idea of re-creating a restored Western Rite to be the main Rite for Western Civilization. I think that the best thing we can do is set a root of Eastern Orthodoxy in specific cultures, and then let their own culture organically develop it such that it becomes a unique Orthodox Tradition (making sure that the secular culture doesn't influence it too negatively - as we no longer convert nations).

I also think that there is something really, really risky in Orthodoxizing something heretical. We can already see this coming to light with the Antiochian WR allowing Corpus Christi. I also think that the Western Rite can serve as an idol for many, where it becomes Spiritually damaging and creates extreme emotional attachment to a Liturgy rather than Spiritual Progress. Maybe some Catholics or Anglicans may be holding onto what they once were rather than becoming fully Orthodox.

P.S.
You are wary of "open services," but Iconostases were something that developed after the Great Schism. In the 1st millenium of Western Christianity, Iconostases were not present - the closes thing to it was the Rood Screen, but even then the Rood Screen doesn't separate the Priest from the people, it's further back and separates the choir and the priest from the people.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I’m the stick-in-the-mud here, I guess.
I think the positive things said (even by St John) about WR were true - 1,000 years ago. I see the identification and moving towards Western forms now to be moving towards forms that have been falling away from Orthodoxy for at least a millennium, and what I saw of this completely open service, which looked more like a Roman Catholic Mass than a DL, even though the language was Orthodox, confirmed that. I think there is all the difference in the world between doing something in a world that is largely Orthodox and in a world that has fallen really far from it. We now live in world that is pushing for ecumenism and a denial of difference in Christian traditions. Theoretically, there is nothing wrong with WR, but in practice, I think there is something to be wary of.

Nothing I’ve seen here has convinced me otherwise.

except the Western Rite is the attempt for the pre-Schism Liturgy. it's not simply Rome's Mass with Orthodox language

 

[archer75]

I have to admit I personally feel no need for Western Rite. I'm a little curious, but I guess I just really like Byzantine Rite..

 

[rusmeister]

except the Western Rite is the attempt for the pre-Schism Liturgy. it's not simply Rome's Mass with Orthodox language

Yes, that is granted.
I’m just saying that it was a great thing a thousand years ago, but now is going to contribute to ecumenism.
No iconostasis? At all? As if there were no reason for it, or the curtain? (One tiny obvious concern among many.) Granted that other WR parishes may have them. But the one in the video was helpd up,as representative, and I am speaking to that. Yes, it looked very Roman, as Rome does it in our time, and they are falling away, too.

I think that, like “deaconnesses”, trying to reintroduce ancient practices that. Were. Discontinued. For reasons. Into a modern world that is losing all sense of what Christian faith and teaching even are, is a huge error, that will multiply those evils. That’s my opinion. I don’t state it as certain fact, but it is sure what it looks like to me.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I usually agree with Rus, but in this case I just see nothing to fear in the WR. It shows a paranoia on our part that Orthodoxy isn’t strong enough to have more than one liturgical tradition within our world. We’re not Orthodox because we have the Divine Liturgy. Orthodoxy is our theology, spiritual faith and beliefs. We see our beliefs played out in the liturgy. As long as the liturgy has no post-schism heretical ideas (like indulgence prayers or references to purgatory or Stabat Mater style talk), no lady priests, filioque in the creed, and everything is done kosher within an Orthodox context, I see no need to fear WRL. How is the form of the liturgy something we should fear? If there is incense, leavened bread, iconography, dignified vestments, proper piety and strength of language, then it is a viable option. Do we believe that the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and Basil the Great and St. James are the ONLY God-given liturgies we can have?

As long as the Ecumenical Patriarch has ZERO involvement in the WR liturgy, I’m ok with it....and keep in mind I’m a fan of the DL....

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Liberalism and humanistic innovations are a threat to all Orthodoxy, not just in the formation of new liturgies for the West. I see no reason to stop the WR. If more Westerners could feel at home in that rite of worship and exit Catholicism or Anglicanism, etc. I say good on them!

LGBTQRLMNOP$&@ is a movement trying to ruin all churches. Same with feminism. Social justice warriors, evolutionists, leftists, liberation theologians, they’re everywhere...

Yes, that is granted.
I’m just saying that it was a great thing a thousand years ago, but now is going to contribute to ecumenism.
No iconostasis? At all? As if there were no reason for it, or the curtain? (One tiny obvious concern among many.) Granted that other WR parishes may have them. But the one in the video was helpd up,as representative, and I am speaking to that. Yes, it looked very Roman, as Rome does it in our time, and they are falling away, too.

I think that, like “deaconnesses”, trying to reintroduce ancient practices that. Were. Discontinued. For reasons. Into a modern world that is losing all sense of what Christian faith and teaching even are, is a huge error, that will multiply those evils. That’s my opinion. I don’t state it as certain fact, but it is sure what it looks like to me.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So, even though on YouTube there are snippets and some recordings of Western Rite Orthodox Liturgies or Masses, I don't think there ever has been one that has been done to the same caliber and quality as Saint Patrick's, which has just been uploaded a few days ago.

Thus, I felt like sharing. Not only to show it off for the case of comparison between the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, but also to show it off to discuss it, and to bring to light some of the controversial practices for positive, productive discussion (e.g., Pipe Organs, statues, the way the Priest blesses people, Rosaries, even Corpus Christi).

So, anyways, here you go.

It looked like I was watching a Roman Mass. I didn't watch the whole thing, but it looked like they were using Roman wafers. I am not sure why there is a need for this.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, that is granted.
I’m just saying that it was a great thing a thousand years ago, but now is going to contribute to ecumenism.
No iconostasis? At all? As if there were no reason for it, or the curtain? (One tiny obvious concern among many.) Granted that other WR parishes may have them. But the one in the video was helpd up,as representative, and I am speaking to that. Yes, it looked very Roman, as Rome does it in our time, and they are falling away, too.

I think that, like “deaconnesses”, trying to reintroduce ancient practices that. Were. Discontinued. For reasons. Into a modern world that is losing all sense of what Christian faith and teaching even are, is a huge error, that will multiply those evils. That’s my opinion. I don’t state it as certain fact, but it is sure what it looks like to me.

ecumenism isn't the intent. and for it to be ecumenism it would have to be blurring our theological differences with Rome, and the Western Rite doesn't.

 

[archer75]

Yes, that is granted.
I’m just saying that it was a great thing a thousand years ago, but now is going to contribute to ecumenism.
No iconostasis? At all? As if there were no reason for it, or the curtain? (One tiny obvious concern among many.) Granted that other WR parishes may have them. But the one in the video was helpd up,as representative, and I am speaking to that. Yes, it looked very Roman, as Rome does it in our time, and they are falling away, too.

I think that, like “deaconnesses”, trying to reintroduce ancient practices that. Were. Discontinued. For reasons. Into a modern world that is losing all sense of what Christian faith and teaching even are, is a huge error, that will multiply those evils. That’s my opinion. I don’t state it as certain fact, but it is sure what it looks like to me.

But the Roman pre-schism Liturgy wasn't discontinued, exactly. It just ended up on the wrong side of the schism. St. Gregory the Great used the form of it current in his day...and we venerate him still.

As to ancient practices, if they were discontinued "for reasons," it's ok for us to have a clear idea of what those reasons were and whether they were good reasons and still apply. If not, then we risk incoherence - Arianism and Iconoclasm, after all, happened for reasons...